Worst case scenario
- Thread starter Madriverrob
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Right! and thanks, you made the next logical choice, and helped me get across that exact point.
I think most first aider's gain a habit and a good one ....also you ever noted that if your boss knows you have been a first aided with you last company you tend to get put through it again? kind of handy! I'v been a first aider for far longer than expected!
This is my works bag one so my travel one and there's something like it at home, I have only covered and dealt with a single person with more than one injury a fair few times, that's my experience and what I carry reflects what I know.
This is my works bag one so my travel one and there's something like it at home, I have only covered and dealt with a single person with more than one injury a fair few times, that's my experience and what I carry reflects what I know.
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I think it may have been at one of Lofty's talks ???
It was noted that, in any stressfull situation, people are roughly divided into three groups.
10% will be rational and take appropriate action. 80% will pretty much be in denial and do nothing. The remaining 10% will resolutly do completely the wrong thing, just to feel that they are doing something. Ideally you want to get as far away from these people as possible.
The worrying part of this is... The 80% who are in need of guidence, need to decide which 10% they will follow. If those who do the wrong thing, are the more dominant characters, the situation snowballs.
Just look around you at your work's managers... Now extrapolate how things would go if a major incident occured in your workplace.... Not a nice image!
I meant triaging the wounded. There is a specific procedure for this.
What most people are surprised about is that the severely wounded, where survival even with hospital treatment is uncertain, are treated last.
Walking wounded are treated before these unfortunate.
Lofty who? Somebody here on Forum?
No, standard psychology. To reflect on previous posts: soldiers can be divided in three groups.
Can not do the job no matter what - used to be called cowards.
Can do the job, are careful not to take obvious excessive, lethal risks. Refuses to do those.
Does the job, no matter the risk. Called Heroes and get the medals.
It is not possible to see in which group a soldier belongs until the battle.
Of course the soldiers switch groups, a 'coward' can turn to a 'hero'. A 'hero' that survived the heroics can change to a 'coward'.
Everybody can after huge pressure get 'shell shocked'.
What most people are surprised about is that the severely wounded, where survival even with hospital treatment is uncertain, are treated last.
Walking wounded are treated before these unfortunate.
Lofty who? Somebody here on Forum?
No, standard psychology. To reflect on previous posts: soldiers can be divided in three groups.
Can not do the job no matter what - used to be called cowards.
Can do the job, are careful not to take obvious excessive, lethal risks. Refuses to do those.
Does the job, no matter the risk. Called Heroes and get the medals.
It is not possible to see in which group a soldier belongs until the battle.
Of course the soldiers switch groups, a 'coward' can turn to a 'hero'. A 'hero' that survived the heroics can change to a 'coward'.
Everybody can after huge pressure get 'shell shocked'.
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That would be 'Lofty' Wiseman. Though the talk/lecture may not have actually been him. That is down to my flalkey memory.
Janne, I was just picking an interesting line from your post, for discussion.
As the original topic was more to do with a civilian incident, that was the group of people that I was thinking of.
It happened that very recently, whilst at work, I was idly thinking of how things could play out, should there be some form of incident. (This was triggered by the fact that we had just a lorry go passed and with the land we are on, the building shakes like a minor tremor).
I recalled the 10-80-10 and thought about the people around me. And how people might react.
Like all companies, there are characters who tend to be domineering and take over in any situation. And and for some reason I also pigeon hole them in the '10% who do totally the wrong thing'.
Training can help move us from the dazed 80% into the 10% who do something positive. But I wonder how situations would play out, where these dominant characters take over.
Janne, I was just picking an interesting line from your post, for discussion.
As the original topic was more to do with a civilian incident, that was the group of people that I was thinking of.
It happened that very recently, whilst at work, I was idly thinking of how things could play out, should there be some form of incident. (This was triggered by the fact that we had just a lorry go passed and with the land we are on, the building shakes like a minor tremor).
I recalled the 10-80-10 and thought about the people around me. And how people might react.
Like all companies, there are characters who tend to be domineering and take over in any situation. And and for some reason I also pigeon hole them in the '10% who do totally the wrong thing'.
Training can help move us from the dazed 80% into the 10% who do something positive. But I wonder how situations would play out, where these dominant characters take over.
I am not familiar with Lofty W. , but will check out who he is!
There might be a need for Triage even in a civilian situation. It all depends on the response from the authorities and hospitals.
How many ambulances are sent, how the local hospitals can cope.
The latest terror acts in UK created a need for Triage I am pretty sure.
You never know how people ( the ones that are not hurt and can help) react.
Only exposure to the situation will tell.
Statistically all of us might be the first to a traffic accident. With a fairly limited casualties, so the need for triage is not likely to happen.
There might be a need for Triage even in a civilian situation. It all depends on the response from the authorities and hospitals.
How many ambulances are sent, how the local hospitals can cope.
The latest terror acts in UK created a need for Triage I am pretty sure.
You never know how people ( the ones that are not hurt and can help) react.
Only exposure to the situation will tell.
Statistically all of us might be the first to a traffic accident. With a fairly limited casualties, so the need for triage is not likely to happen.
There are historical references to the symptoms of PTSD going back much further. It was, at one time, known as 'Soldier's Heart'. Shell Shock was the WW1 name, then came 'Lack of Moral Fibre (LMF)', now shown to have been invented as a way of using shame and guilt to keep bomber crews flying.
Suicide is indeed the biggest cause of death amongst 25-45 males in UK, and the second biggest in the 16-24 range (the biggest for them is RTCs). Interestingly, suicide rates amongst males over 64 is showing an upward trend.
I won't criticise Santaman2000 for his views, though I think they are wholly incorrect. Although it's getting better, there is still a great deal of stigma and discrimination around poor mental health. You can see someone with a broken leg, for example, and so it's easy to understand, whilst someone experiencing poor mental health may have no visible signs. There is still a great deal that's not well understood. There are so many factors that affect mental health, from neurobiology to genetics, social factors and life events.
In terms of PTSD, it's generally seen as something that affects military personnel, but in fact the prevalence is about the same amongst civilians. It's the individual's perception of an incident that makes the difference. It can affect anyone - so there but for the Grace of God, etc. And there are people who pretend to have it; it's almost become the acceptable face of poor mental health. I'm certainly aware of people who have tried to garner sympathy from others by saying they have PTSD, and some who use it to try to excuse bad behaviour. These people can rarely convince professionals, however, and it's usually quite simple to catch them out.
The idea that there is some sort of enormous conspiracy involving all the world's mental health professionals and researchers is, however, risible. An unshakeable belief in something that is patently untrue is a delusion, and delusions are a symptom of psychotic illnesses - unless, of course, they don't exist either . . .
eMost claims of psychotic illness are likewise an attempt to avoid blame. Claim a disease and ascape punishment for crimes.
Conspiracy? No; just an easy way out.
This is worse than ignorance, it's prejudice and intolerance based on ignorance.
'Most' people with 'psychotic' illness, the vast majority, never commit any sort of crime, they are by far a greater threat to themselves than anyone else.
I can only imagine your experience in law enforcement and American 'justice' and in particular the defence of 'insanity', has led to your narrowminded views.
For the majority of people with mental illness it is not 'an easy way out'. Personally I lost a fiance, friends, my home and my job through my experience, and I still face stigma from a minority of bigots who like to think it's at best a character flaw and at worst some sort of attempt at cheating the system.
I'm usually willing to discuss a topic but in this instance your views are so opposed to my own and since the subject is a personal one and nothing to do with bushcraft I won't be engaging anymore for my own peace of mind.
Don't worry Ken, they are not big on evidence based science in his part of the world. A worrying high %ge of them who would consider themselves sane are absolutely convinced that earth was created a few thousand years ago by an old man with a beard who lives in the clouds who sent the recent strong winds to punish people who like musicals!
Nomad64, buddy, let's not stretch this debate. The creation as described in the bible was based on thousands of years of verbal tradition. Look at the sequence it describes and look how close it mirrors science now. Pretty amazing really!
Now PTSD. It is undoubtedly abused as a mechanism to get out of the military, it is undoubtedly used to obtain payments but I'm afraid having seen a close mate break, lose his job, his wife and family that the condition clearly exists.
When you subject people to long periods of extreme stress it takes its toll on the mind. There is no escape. It's not always one big event. My mate discribed his as a lot of things like ping pong balls in a filing cabinet drawer. One day he couldn't slam the drawer any more.
It's tragic and I'm sorry to say this snowflake generation are less likely to hold up.
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Now PTSD. It is undoubtedly abused as a mechanism to get out of the military, it is undoubtedly used to obtain payments but I'm afraid having seen a close mate break, lose his job, his wife and family that the condition clearly exists.
When you subject people to long periods of extreme stress it takes its toll on the mind. There is no escape. It's not always one big event. My mate discribed his as a lot of things like ping pong balls in a filing cabinet drawer. One day he couldn't slam the drawer any more.
It's tragic and I'm sorry to say this snowflake generation are less likely to hold up.
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I cind the worst is the authorities /states very poor response to the afflicted' needs.
Applies to phydical damaged doldiers too.
Prople risk mind and bidy for the state, when they return damaged the help is not that great.
Applies to phydical damaged doldiers too.
Prople risk mind and bidy for the state, when they return damaged the help is not that great.
Plus 21 years of military experience. Seen loads and loads of fakers.
If somebody really has a mental illness that's one thing; but don't go blaming it on things they've seen. In 60 years I've seen too many things to even remember them all. Drownings, fatal car crashes, and more. The worst up close was in the late 1970s at Nellis AFB, Nevada. I was working under one F-4 early one night when another one starting take-off roll lost control. Me and a few other mechanics watched as it spun on a collapsed nose gear and burst into flames. The WSO unbuckled and started to climb out when he changed his mind and sat back down for the pilot to activate the ejection system. Both chutes streamered (although the WSO separated from his seat anyway) and they both bounced. Rescue had to wait several minutes for the ordinance to all cook off before approaching the charred crew. One of them (I don't remember which) was dead on the scene and the other died within a half hour in the base E.R. Of course I felt sadness for their loss but at the end of the day, that's just life. Likewise for the 14 men we lost when Spirit 3 was shot down in Desert Storm. And still later as an ordinary retiree watching a car crash across the road kill a baby. You just suck it up and move on.
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The problem, Santaman, is that us with military training are 'trained' to react a certain way and do stuff no civilian would do.
I might sound like an a-hole, but civilians do not and never will understand the military or military people.
Our training changes us. For better ? for worse? I do not know.
Some people joining the Armed Forces are 'softer', 'weaker', 'more humane' ( choose) and can not take it. Those quit.
I have been accused by many people to be a psychopath or 'hard minded'. Specially women.
It took me many years before I found one/one found me that accepted how I was.
I might sound like an a-hole, but civilians do not and never will understand the military or military people.
Our training changes us. For better ? for worse? I do not know.
Some people joining the Armed Forces are 'softer', 'weaker', 'more humane' ( choose) and can not take it. Those quit.
I have been accused by many people to be a psychopath or 'hard minded'. Specially women.
It took me many years before I found one/one found me that accepted how I was.
I have not served in the military, I admit, I am just a mere academic hack with the enlightenment tradition of evidence based research behind me. A long time ago there was a debate about whether the evidence of ones daily experience trumped the evidence of experiment, and you know, I am going for the Galileo gambit here, because the Copernical revolution won.
You don't know what I have seen, what I have experienced, but at one time I worked as an advice giver and yes I saw some fakes, but they were in the minority, I saw military veterans and so called hard men too, they needed help and were not afraid to ask for it.
Your argument is as ridiculous as the 80 yr old smoker who has smoked 4 packs a day for 65 years, telling people that smoking doesn't cause cancer, because he hasn't personally died of cancer, yet.
Maybe just accept that your life experience does not make you an expert on mental health and listen to those of us with more direct experience in that area who are trying to educate you.
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