Waterstone for a beginner - bad idea?

[Bushcraft Apprentice]

Hello,

My first post on here after having been a reader for a while. Not sure whether it's a daft question but I'll ask it anyway.

Is a waterstone a bad choice for someone new to sharpening knives?

The reason I ask is that I recently bought a combination waterstone from Axminster (admittedly I ought to have posted this question before buying it) but am unsure whether to get an oilstone or other alternative to learn on first rather than risk ruining the waterstone which I've been led to believe can happen if they're used incorrectly. I was taught to sharpen on the Woodlore Fundamental course and have watched Ray's sharpening video many times but wonder if I ought to practice a few times first before being let loose on the waterstone.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Robert

 

[Chastiser]

you should try the lansky sharpening system, i have one so must be foolproof lol. have a look on heinnies, they do them. once you get used to using such as the lansky, you will get a feel for the correct angle and may well build in some muscle memory too. this will help you when using a stone with no guides.

 

[PaulSanderson]

a waterstone is as good as any other sharpening tool to be honest. Now you have it, just learn to use it everyone uses different kit, all based on personal choice...i wouldnt say one is better than any other...with a wetstone, all i do is raise the back of the blade slightly. Southey on posted a fantastic tutorial on the BB Bushcraft group, he could be worth asking...

 

[MartiniDave]

As with many things, the more you do it the better it is, so I would say just get on and sharpen away, the teaching at Woodlore is a VERY good place to start!

Dave

 

[robin wood]

You will not ruin the stone. The whole point with waterstones is they are designed to be soft (as in the bond between the particles not the particles themselves) and wear away thus exposing fresh sharp abrasive which cuts metal fast. If folk have warned you that you can damage the stone all they are talking about is wearing it in an uneven fashion so it becomes dished, this happens inevitably whatever you do and you need to keep flattening the surface. The cheap easy way to do that is lay a sheet of coarse emery paper on a sheet of plate glass and rub your stone on it. A little touch up every 5 minutes of sharpening is better than letting it get very dished then having lots of work to do.

 

[Xunil]

Why not consider a sacrificial knife to start learning on if you are concerned ata ll ?

Pick (or even buy) something inexpensive and get going on it.

Using a permanent marker can be a big help to beginners to mark the edge so that they can see where they've been and how the angle needs to be adjusted but once you get the knack it's easy to do.

I'd try a thin bladed pocket knife like an Opinel which are cheap as chips and can take a great edge, and maybe a Mora, which is also inexpensive, can take a serious edge and will let you learn on a Scandi grind. That can make a lot of sense if your main working knife/knives have Scandi grinds - a bit pointless learning how to do convex edges to begin with if yours are Scandi and vice versa.

If your edges are really messed up you could adopt a similar approach outlined above by Robin but instead of using it to dress the waterstone you can use the same method (with different grits of paper) to shift a lot of metal very quickly without any natural wear on your stone.

Once it clicks it really is easy.

 

[yerbache]

Great thing I think about the waterstones is that you will see immediately if you are doing it wrong; You'll either be gouging chunks out of your stone if your angle is too steep or it will be completely ineffective if the angle is too shallow. You can experiment with what works without fear of knackering a good knife (unlike with some of the harder stones).

 

[Karl82]

here is a good vidio to watch for waterstone use. not my vidio no connection just found it helpfull. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k_GcsoAPZE

 

[wizard]

We were all beginners at some point so just take the time to learn properly when using the waterstones. I like them better than any other sharpener and believe me, I have tried them all.
Best to practice with an inexpensive knife to get a proper feel and then go from there. Main thing is holding the proper angle for the length of the blade while drawing it across the stone face. Once you master that, you'll get razor sharp edges.

 

[Bushcraft Apprentice]

Thanks for all the help so far, surprised at how many replies there's been in one day!
I have a pair of Mora's, one carbon one stainless, so not the end of the world if I make a mistake. I'll have a check before I sharpen it but I thought I read somewhere on here that there was some effect on the stone if you sharpen stainless knives on the same stone as a carbon.
Now I have the confidence that I won't ruin my new stone with the carbon though I'll have to get practising.
I'll just have to be careful I don't get to obsessive trying to master the technique and end up with a fillet knife

Many thanks again,

Robert

P.s. all this is assuming I don't lose either knife whilst out and about, I may have to get another sheath as I've had them fall out a few times.

 

[robin wood]

Before you start sharpening your mora on your waterstone following Ray Mears video you might benefit from reading this. http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29512&highlight=sharp

 

[wizard]

I know what you are saying Robin, with the slight secondary bevel. I grind mine to zero after a few sharpenings and then run a slight secondary one using polishing compound and a strop. The Mora #1 Classic with the laminated blade stayed sharp for anything I used it for during a 6 day course, I used it a lot for everything you can think of and it was still super sharp at the end. No edge damage either. I have gotten some edge damage in the past on my Woody clone, original zero ground edge. I have since used the stones and my strop and not had another edge issue....so far!
I think the RM technique will produce that "factory" type secndary bevel through the stropping and the glass edge. I've never used the glass edge myself, just the strop with green rouge compound.

 

[mr dazzler]

dont worry about ruining your stone. As has been pointed out, they instantly tell you if things are going wrong. I find them to be very responsive, always clean and providing a constantly new cutting surface not clogged with oil and metal particles as with traditional stones. I got my first one in 1991 or 2. My first few attempts with it led to a "ploughed field" effect :yikes: because of poor technique (which hadnt shown up when using harder oil stones, the reason why I was getting rounded, uneven bevels). But I persevered. I learned the basics of how to hold, brace and stand, off of Ian Kirby. I still have that same stone (admittedly its now only about 3/8" thick it was 1" when new) You can rub them on emory or other sand paper as has been suggested. You can also rub 2 stones together under the tap to acheive the same flat result. Thats the key with water stones they must be flat to really work properly. Have a go, stick with it. The Jap stones will produce a fantastic polished edge

 

[MartiniDave]

Robert,

Don't worry about using the same stones for carbon and stainless steel blades. I do it a lot with no apparent ill effects to either knives or stones.
I usually add the micro bevel with a VERY light pass of the ceramic side of my DC4 pocket stone, after stropping.

Dave

 

[mr dazzler]

Oh I forgot to mention, when you dress the water stones flat with emory, save the dust, it makes a useful stropping compound.

 

[comeonbabylightmyfire]

I keep reading threads today which inspire me to buy things. Now I must get a Japanese waterstone. I've been dithering for a while and this thread has been the final decider. I've been using a common-or-garden hardware store variety, supplemented by a DC4 when I'm out and about. They've been fine too but I really fancy the Japanese one. Now which grits?

 

[Bushcraft Apprentice]

Before you start sharpening your mora on your waterstone following Ray Mears video you might benefit from reading this. http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29512&highlight=sharp

I think I understand what you are saying but please bear with me if not.
Are the main points that-

The Mora comes with a secondary bevel which should be maintained as it's too thin a blade to have a Scandi grind but a secondary bevel may also be beneficial on a thicker bladed knife (such as a Woodlore or similar) to give it more durability?

So what would be the best way to sharpen then? Would it be possible to sharpen as in the Ray Mears video and then put the secondary bevel on after. How would I do this? a ceramic rod? how critical is the angle and how is it best to get it accurate, by eye or in with the rod set in some kind of angle guide?

Apologies if these questions are covered in the "is your Mora too sharp?" topic but I found it quite hard to absorb all two pages information in one go.

Robert

 

[robin wood]

The Mora comes with a secondary bevel which should be maintained as it's too thin a blade to have a Scandi grind but a secondary bevel may also be beneficial on a thicker bladed knife (such as a Woodlore or similar) to give it more durability?

It's nopthing to do with the thickness of the blade it is about the angle it is ground at. The primary grind on the mora is about 20-22 degrees on a woodlore it is 25-27 if you sharpen them both "zero ground" that is follow the primary grind right down to the point so in cross section it is a simple triangle then the 20 degree mora will blunt quickly carving wood but the 25 woodlore will be fine.

The mora is designed to have a small secondary bevel, it is simple and very very quick to put on when you can do it. In fact most people when learning to sharpen inadvertently raise the back of the blade at some point and end up putting secondary bevels on any way. Another common way of putting a secondary on in a controlled way is with crock sticks like the spyderco sharpmaker or you can do it with autosol or similar abrasive on a soft leather strop.

The other beauty of using a secondary bevel is that all that time spent polishing the primary becomes pointless, you can just touch up the secondary in seconds literally, maybe 15 seconds to sharpen a knife. Every now and then when the secondary starts to get quite large after numerous touch ups you can cut the primary back on a coarse stone but polishing it is a waste of time. Some folk like a polished primary because it rusts less quickly and looks shiny but from a functional point of view a quick scrub down on coarse abrasive is all it needs then go down through the grits on the fine secondary, because you are now removing metal from a bevel a fraction of a mm wide it takes only two or three strokes max on each stone.

 

[Xunil]

I'm with Robin on this 110%

I visit Norway often and Sweden fairly regularly. In fact, I used to show and sell my knives there in years past, at events like the Nordic Hunting and Fishing Festival at Elverum and similar. Many of the knives sold over there and made by the traditional knifemakers are not, in fact, zero ground in the so-called "Scandi" grind like so many folks assume. I used to see a lot of them that were sold from the maker with a secondary micro bevel and most of the makers had stories to tell of knives that come back for re-grinding after long service, when the secondary bevel reaches the point where the owner can no longer effectively sharpen it.

In fact, if you look at how most Scandinavian knives are made they are ground on fairly large diameter water cooled wheels which gives the appearance of a flat grind but it is, in fact, hollow ground, just with a very shallow curve. This is even less noticeable on the knives you see made in Norway, Sweden et al due to the fact that most of the blades are typically around 3mm (ish) thick and the thinner the steel the less obvious the slight hollow of the grind is. It becomes a little easier to see on the 'Scandi' grind people accept as the currently in-vogue norm on a 4mm or over 'bushcraft' knife - the thicker steel makes it slightly easier to see the nature of the grind. You could also argue that unless you use an abrasive that contrives to remain perfectly flat as you work your edge the slightly-hollow-ground-Scandi will normally end up turning inside out and becoming a slightly-convex-ground Scandi due to the effects of a 'dished' stone.

Most of the Woodlore knives I have seen and handled are, in fact, very slightly hollow ground and not the Scandi grind that is so well associated with it, which is slightly ironic to say the least. Anyone who owns one can simply put the edge of a piece of A4 paper from the top of the bevel to the edge and they will normally see a very slight concave curve or hollow to the grind on most Woodlore knives. Ironic that one of the most salient atributes of this knife is its 'Scandi' grind.

Much also depends on how you use your knife. I don't beast my knives but they see a lot of use because I hunt and fish often and make a lot of longbows. I never leave the edge long enough to require regular work on a stone. Most of my knives can (and are) be kept fighting fit in active service by regular stropping and I only ever go back to stones a few times a year if the edge gets rolled, which would normally be my fault for doing something stupid with it, or if it gets dinged when dropped or something similarly unusual.

Basically, if you use your knife smart and maintain it BEFORE it needs harsh regrinding the regular use of stones can be reduced to occasional at worst, and once the edge is set up properly the strop becomes your best friend. It's very portable too...

True zero ground knives are pretty hard work to make and even harder to maintain for the customer. Most folks end up by introducing their own slight variation accidentally - things tend to work out better if you introduce a deliberately planned and controlled variation that offers a more robust edge that can be easily maintained over the longer term with less time and energy spent in doing so.

I'll get my coat

 

[MartiniDave]

I have several old stones in my collection, many of them gathered up by my old dad from sheds being cleared over the years. Many have quite deep hollows worn in them and were cherished for "giving a better edge". I suspect the old boys were actually putting a mild convex on their blades with these stone, thus having a robust but sharp edge. As far as I know the stones came from diverse trades such as butchers, carpenters and just plain "clodhopper" land workers. Shame we can't ask those old boys now!

Dave