Very Cold weather advice

[BOD]

MIght be a stupid question but here goes.

You fall through the ice and get out.

If you can take your boots off, squeeze the water out of your socks and walk in
"iced sock boots" can you do the same with your wet clothes?

 

[pierre girard]

MIght be a stupid question but here goes.

You fall through the ice and get out.

If you can take your boots off, squeeze the water out of your socks and walk in
"iced sock boots" can you do the same with your wet clothes?

Personal Experieince:

I was walking on the Angwassig River when I was about 12. It was minus 20 F (minus 28.89 C). I was ten miles from home. I stepped on a frost boil and through the ice I went. I was carrying my rifle in such a way that it jamed under my armpits and kept me from going completely under. The current was so strong it kept pulling my feet downstream. To make matter's worse, I was wearing snowshoes, and when I would try to get up out of the hole in the ice, they would jam and keep me from pulling myself out.

After quite some time and effort, a story in itself, I was able to get out of the hole in the ice.

In my breast pocket I had a book of matches. Thankfully, they were still dry. By the time I got to shore and got some birchbark and squaw wood to start a fire, my trousers, boots, and clothing up to the middle of my chest was one sheet of ice. I had to cut my boot laces with a knife to get my boots off.

I started a fire - only to have a large clump of snow fall off an evergreen and just about put it out. I got more bark and wood and got the fire going again. I hung my clothes on sticks by the fire. I had to keep turning them so they wouldn't burn. It took several hours for my clothing to dry enough for me to put them back on again. I guess, in answer to your question: Under those conditions, there was no way to wring the water out of my clothing until it had been warmed by the fire.

In the mean time, I would be roasting on the side of me toward the fire - and freezing on the side away from the fire. My boots did not dry properly, and by the time I got home, I couldn't feel my feet at all. My mother put my feet in a pan of luke-warm water, and it felt like the water was boiling. It is a terrible pain when feeling returns to a partially frozen extremity.

I guess, in answer to your question: Under those conditions, there was no way to wring the water out of my clothing until it had been warmed by the fire.

PG

 

[dommyracer]

This isn't from first hand experience, but everything I've ever read, heard and been told about getting wet in those kind of conditions suggests it is better (if possible) to start a fire, get your wet kit off and dry the kit and yourself over the fire than to stay in your wet kit.

Most sources also advise to always always always carry dry kit in a dry bag in case you do fall in.

 

[BorderReiver]

Very scary situation for a 12 year old Pierre.

Had you been brought up to know what to do,or was it instinctive?

 

[TheGreenMan]

Personal Experieince:

I was walking on the Angwassig River when I was about 12...PG

Hello Pierre,

Remarkable story and useful information, and I'm very glad you survived to share it with us. Thank you.

Best regards,
Paul.

 

[BOD]

Thanks for telling us that Pierre. Do you think it would have been different if you had stripped down to socks?

Mors Kochanski advocates walking in ones socks without boots as a way to avoid frostbite and frozen feet. See

http://www.karamat.com/articlecodl.html
http://www.karamat.com/articlekj.html

I was wondering if that technique works with clothes. I have also heard that you should roll in the snow to wick away water before it freezes.


Any Royals or Mountain Leader cadres out there who can tell us what their practice is?

 

[SunDog]

A scary experience if it happens for real I'm sure, but I guess like most things preparation can definitely help! When Royal Marines go to Norway for the first time they all undertake whats called the NSSC (Novice Ski / Survival Course), part of the course being Ice Breaking Drills. It's quite a simple drill really. A hole is made in the ice by one of the instructors using a chainsaw and the students line up next to it. The same set of skis are used for everyone, string attached to the ends to get them out afterwards. One by one the students go in, first thing required when in the water is "don't panic!!" Of course it's cold but it's still only water, any colder it would be ice!! Then recital of your name, rank and number, followed by kicking off the skis and shouldering the bergan off your back onto the side of the ice. Then its a matter of using the ski poles (which you don't want to let go of!) as ice picks and clawing your way out of the hole. The instructors normally give you a tot of rum and you might toast the Queen or suchlike, you then roll in the snow for a few seconds (as mentioned in BOD's post above) and then it's a matter of getting out of the windchill, and into a dry set of clothes (especially socks!) or within a few minutes obviously you are going to start to freeze. Its standard that everyone carries a big flask of hot drink with them during the day which would have been prepared that morning so now is the time to get drinking and get warm from the inside as well! From a tactical point of view, fires to dry clothes are probably going to be out, so this comes to the other very important point also made above (dommyracer) about always having your spare clothing and equipment well waterproofed.
It's a drill that a lot of Marines enjoy, and it definitely adds to your self confidence and confidence in your colleagues, a good thing in the Arctic I think!

 

[pierre girard]

Very scary situation for a 12 year old Pierre.

Had you been brought up to know what to do,or was it instinctive?

Hmm. Guess I must have been brought up. Kind of like common knowledge in the little community where I was raised. Probably learned a lot from my grandfather and some from my father. Don't remember being scared - maybe more POed. Maybe not even that. Just going from one thing to the next to do what has to be done. Remember thinking I'd made a very bad move putting the fire under an evergreen branch with snow on it - I should have known better - even at that age.

I suppose a lot of this depends on just where you are. In Minnesota - winter is very dry - unlike GB. If you have access to firewood above snow level - it goes like a house afire. Starting a fire is definitely the best option. It is easy to get a large roaring fire in short order. I have no doubt I would have had serious hypothermia issues had I tried to walk home in wet and frozen clothing.

I don't know about socks. I do know that I had them off eventually - to get them dry - which meant I had to go barefoot in the snow to get more wood. You just have to find something to sit on and get your feet up to the fire. I had no frostbite, but you don't have to get frostbite to loose feeling in your feet. Only thing I've ever got frostbit was my ears, but that was another time.

As to jumping through a hole in the ice. It is something I've done from childhood. Where we live now, we have a sauna about 30 feet from the lake, and we do it about once every three weeks (on my long weekend break from work) during winter. Still, not for the faint of heart - and of course, we get to go back into the warm sauna.

 

[torjusg]

I have fallen through the ice properly at least four times. It is a long time since now though. I used to be quite reckless about danger.

I have never been in a critical situation with falling through. One time I fell through to my neck, I seemed to pull my self up on the ice instinctively. I got cold, but I knew that my father was close by and the weather wasn't very cold. Perhaps -5C. My father came with the snowmobile after an hour and I got my cold a** home.

The reason why I ventured out on the thin ice that time, was because I noticed that the fishing was progressively better as I ventured nearer the intake of the river. I got quite a few fish, but got too greedy.

 

[pierre girard]

A scary experience if it happens for real I'm sure, but I guess like most things preparation can definitely help! When Royal Marines go to Norway for the first time they all undertake whats called the NSSC (Novice Ski / Survival Course), part of the course being Ice Breaking Drills. It's quite a simple drill really. A hole is made in the ice by one of the instructors using a chainsaw and the students line up next to it. The same set of skis are used for everyone, string attached to the ends to get them out afterwards. One by one the students go in, first thing required when in the water is "don't panic!!" Of course it's cold but it's still only water, any colder it would be ice!! Then recital of your name, rank and number, followed by kicking off the skis and shouldering the bergan off your back onto the side of the ice. Then its a matter of using the ski poles (which you don't want to let go of!) as ice picks and clawing your way out of the hole. The instructors normally give you a tot of rum and you might toast the Queen or suchlike, you then roll in the snow for a few seconds (as mentioned in BOD's post above) and then it's a matter of getting out of the windchill, and into a dry set of clothes (especially socks!) or within a few minutes obviously you are going to start to freeze. Its standard that everyone carries a big flask of hot drink with them during the day which would have been prepared that morning so now is the time to get drinking and get warm from the inside as well! From a tactical point of view, fires to dry clothes are probably going to be out, so this comes to the other very important point also made above (dommyracer) about always having your spare clothing and equipment well waterproofed.
It's a drill that a lot of Marines enjoy, and it definitely adds to your self confidence and confidence in your colleagues, a good thing in the Arctic I think!

Nowdays, when I'm on ice, I have two large and fairly long lag bolts, one tied to each sleeve of my jacket. The upper part is wrapped with friction tape to give a good grip, and the purpose - just like the ski poles, is to get yourself back out onto the ice.

 

[SunDog]

Much respect to you guys that fell through the ice for real. Must be an occupational hazard living in your parts of the world I guess. And great to be able to do it recreationally with a sauna, has to be good for the circulation !

 

[pierre girard]

Much respect to you guys that fell through the ice for real. Must be an occupational hazard living in your parts of the world I guess. And great to be able to do it recreationally with a sauna, has to be good for the circulation !

Very refreshing, but defiitely an aquired taste.

 

[Greg]

A scary experience if it happens for real I'm sure, but I guess like most things preparation can definitely help! When Royal Marines go to Norway for the first time they all undertake whats called the NSSC (Novice Ski / Survival Course), part of the course being Ice Breaking Drills. It's quite a simple drill really. A hole is made in the ice by one of the instructors using a chainsaw and the students line up next to it. The same set of skis are used for everyone, string attached to the ends to get them out afterwards. One by one the students go in, first thing required when in the water is "don't panic!!" Of course it's cold but it's still only water, any colder it would be ice!! Then recital of your name, rank and number, followed by kicking off the skis and shouldering the bergan off your back onto the side of the ice. Then its a matter of using the ski poles (which you don't want to let go of!) as ice picks and clawing your way out of the hole. The instructors normally give you a tot of rum and you might toast the Queen or suchlike, you then roll in the snow for a few seconds (as mentioned in BOD's post above) and then it's a matter of getting out of the windchill, and into a dry set of clothes (especially socks!) or within a few minutes obviously you are going to start to freeze. Its standard that everyone carries a big flask of hot drink with them during the day which would have been prepared that morning so now is the time to get drinking and get warm from the inside as well! From a tactical point of view, fires to dry clothes are probably going to be out, so this comes to the other very important point also made above (dommyracer) about always having your spare clothing and equipment well waterproofed.
It's a drill that a lot of Marines enjoy, and it definitely adds to your self confidence and confidence in your colleagues, a good thing in the Arctic I think!

It is certainly an experience that you never forget! I always carry the photos of me doing the Ice breaking drills when I go out in winter, and when I get a little bit chilly or my mates say their a bit cold I look at them or show my mates and we soon realise that we are not actually that cold!

Its one of my life experiences that I am glad to have done, for that just in case situation and I agree with SunDog that it definately adds to your self confidence.