The straight crooked knife.

[OhCanada]

The question came up that the idea of a possables pouch was a myth created by this site and I replied that yes it is, for the pouch was in reality a bag.

Well here is another myth buster for you.

The crooked in "crooked knife" meant the handle and not the blade. I live on the east coast of Canada and in a book of Indian items gathered along the east coast from Nova Scotia to Maine there are more than a dozen crooked knifes all with straight blades. These were gathered from 1910-1914. Sometimes the blades were 1/2" wide and somtimes maybe just 1/4" wide with a point, likely whatever piece of steel they could get. It was the handle in each knife that was crooked.

I put a photo in the gallery showing the knife I picked up about six years ago. It is the exact style of those made in 1910-1914, the Indians saw little need to change what worked!

What most think of as a crooked knife likely came from the Hoof Knife or various carving knives brought over by Europeans.

But the true Crooked Knife is straight.

 

[torjusg]

I have heard that the crooked knife decended from a knife made from a beaver tooth. I have never quite understood that though, as the primary working edge on a beaver tooth is the tip while the crooked knife primarily uses the long edge.

Probably just a myth that as well.

Torjus Gaaren

 

[OhCanada]

Correct, a Beavers front teeth are much like our own. If it was ever used as a tool it would be more like a chisel.

 

[Millbilly]

Sorry if im posting something that your all aware of allready but an interesting site on crooked knives can be found here:

http://members.aol.com/mocotagan/index.html

Loads of info on crooked knives, their history, and a few pics.

Simon

 

[pierre girard]

The crooked in "crooked knife" meant the handle and not the blade. I live on the east coast of Canada and in a book of Indian items gathered along the east coast from Nova Scotia to Maine there are more than a dozen crooked knifes all with straight blades. These were gathered from 1910-1914. Sometimes the blades were 1/2" wide and somtimes maybe just 1/4" wide with a point, likely whatever piece of steel they could get. It was the handle in each knife that was crooked.

I put a photo in the gallery showing the knife I picked up about six years ago. It is the exact style of those made in 1910-1914, the Indians saw little need to change what worked!

What most think of as a crooked knife likely came from the Hoof Knife or various carving knives brought over by Europeans.

But the true Crooked Knife is straight.

Many crooked knives were a straight blade with a crooked handle, as you say. These were most often used instead of a drawknife. There were also crooked knives with a bent blade - used for making bowls, etc. - though I've never seen an old one with a pronounced enough bend to make a european style spoon. Ojibwe made a broad shallow spoon - much like a bowl with a handle. The same name (naagan) was used for this spoon as was used for a bowl.

I've found several bent blade crooked knives (just the blade) in old encampment sites and have seen several found at NWCo furpost sites that can be dated between the 1790s and 1804. Crooked knives with a crooked, or hooked, blade were common fur trade items in our area. The crooked blade was not near as pronounced as the hook on a scandinavian style scorp or hook knife. It was also nothing near as pronounced as a farriers knife.

 

[OldJimbo]

I'd respectfully disagree.

The straight bladed crooked knife is mostly used in basket making (- but with some application in carving), the curved blade in wood carving and shaping. Very old examples of both exist - but which one is commonly found in an area depends more on whether basket making or carving was predominent there.
I believe that it's far more important to try each for its intended use, than argue about them. Each of these is a highly evolved tool in its own right.

 

[OhCanada]

Basket making is a big craft on the east coast.

 

[OldJimbo]

It was a big thing here on the west coast, too, although for containers bentwood boxes were also used. We have to remember that basket making skills were used to make all sorts of things including rainproof hats, temporary shelters, etc.
One of my many big regrets is that I didn't get more information on basket making from old people who have since died. The effect of a couple of generations going through residential schools and subsequent problems led to a huge loss of passed down knowledge. I have seen some long strips of bark pulled off cedars recently so I'll have to see who's getting back into it.
A huge puzzle is why more straight bladed crooked knives haven't turned up out here. They're the logical tool for any type of basket making - and there'd be different types for specific materials.
Here a crooked knife means either the typical 6" straight blade with turned up tip for carpentry (sleds, snowshoes, some carving) or smaller specialized ones that carvers made for specific carving. It's easy to see how those are used, although a person has to use one of the big ones, to see just why it beats a knife in shaping large pieces of wood. From the pictures that I've seen, and from a basic knowledge of what it takes to evenly split different materials for basket making I'd figure the basket making straight blades to be vastly more evolved in terms of handles, the curvature of which helps with reducing wrist stress in keeping splits even.
I'm going to have to sacrifice a straight razor and experiment - just not the one I shave with! Trouble is that modern straight razors are very hollow ground, and I'm not sure how that would work in basketry. I love that usual definition of an east coast crooked knife as being most often made from an old straight razor blade with an attached crooked handle.. That's kind of like saying that an axe is just a sharpened bit of metal on a stick and we're not sure why there were a few hundred patterns in constant production. I bet the blade cross section and width of straight bladed crooked knives would be tailored to the job/material in a big way.

 

[pierre girard]

It was a big thing here on the west coast, too, although for containers bentwood boxes were also used. We have to remember that basket making skills were used to make all sorts of things including rainproof hats, temporary shelters, etc.
One of my many big regrets is that I didn't get more information on basket making from old people who have since died. The effect of a couple of generations going through residential schools and subsequent problems led to a huge loss of passed down knowledge. .

Same problems here.

Funny story: One of my second cousins, who lives on the rez, began making birch bark canoes. He gets $8000 per 14 foot canoe - when the going rate is $2000 per 16 foot canoe - usually made by Ray Boesell of Haffeman Boatworks. I asked him how he could get so much. He said, "Some people just have to have their canoe built by an Indian, and who am I to argue."

I asked him if he'd learned it from someone in the family. He looked around to see if anyone was listening - and told me this:

"When I was about 18, this Iowa farmer came up to the rez. Wanted to see what he could learn about making birchbark canoes from people on the rez. Well, no one had made a birchbark canoe here for a hundred years. The Iowa farmer had spent part of a summer learning to make birchbark canoes from old man Haffeman - so he said if I and my friends would get the materials - he'd teach us what he knew. So, I'm an Ojibwe - who learned how to make an Ojibwe birchbark canoe - from an Iowa farmer - who learned how from an Agongos (Norwegian) in Minnesota - who learned how to make them from the Leech Lake Ojibwe in the early 1900s."

PG

 

[BorderReiver]

Great story PG.

At least the old skills didn't die out,regardless of the twisted path the knowledge took.

 

[OldJimbo]

Any way that skills and knowledge survive is great!
I was sitting with my grand-daughter at Kitselas Canyon locating the village sites there and talking about all the people who used to live there. Naturally she asked where everyone went, and I had to tell her that only three went anywhere - the rest are still there buried in mass graves after a smallpox epidemic. For years I tested positive on TB tests because of all the contact with that. In the 70's when lots of old people were still alive, they were too busy raising grand-kids to have a lot of time to chat.
Putting knowledge back from fragments known by a lot of people is sure a long task!

 

[sam_acw]

The majority of the american crook knife pictures i've found on the internet seem to be straight for the majority with prehaps a slight (30 degree?) hook on the last few inches.
The best idea i have seen is using an old throat razor like so;

canoe tools

However i don't have one at the moment and from what i remember they are ground on both sides so one would have to be ground flat

 

[jason01]

Ive been experimenting a bit with straight bladed crook knives and while Ive never used a curved one the straight ones seem to work pretty well for many carving tasks. So far Ive been trying different sized blades/handles with various crook angles.

You cant see it in any of the above pics but I also put a 90 deg spur on the end of the tang, this locates in a hole in the handle and Ive been impresed with how secure this method of handle attachment seems to be. It would be very easy to make a rough handle on the spot in the woods with this method if need be.

 

[OldJimbo]

Nice work! Although until I saw the actual blades with curved spines on the blue background, I got a sort of optical illusion and thought you'd put the blades on backwards...

 

[scruff]

This is a great thread guys.

Thank you for your sharing some of your knowledge and stories. I've yet to handle my first crooked knife and its been thoroughly interesting to read your views on them.

Kind regards

scruff

 

[sam_acw]

nice looking knives jason01
Did you make the blades yourself?

 

[jason01]

I've only ever seen them online but I was fascinated by these strange looking knives the first time I came across them, I'd never seen anything like it, an almost forgottten tool so different to the knives we're more familiar with, often made very crudely and yet so cunningly ergonomic. I had to try one! I wouldnt have been surprised if I'd fitted the first one upside down Jimbo, took me a while to get my head round all the angles but yes the curved side is the spine not the edge!

I did make the blades Sam, theyre 01 with a forged tang and about 25 deg bevel, the bigger one above is 3mm thick with 3 1/2" of edge and thats about as big as I'd like to go with these, I think about 3" blade is probably optimum. Theres approximately 30 deg of crook from horizontal at the tang/blade junction. The smaller one also has a 2nd 10 deg bend to the left (if you look down the spine), this compound bend works well but makes them trickier to grind/sharpen.

 

[Hoodoo]

Jason, those are real beauties!

 

[Stew]

I have one of Jason's blades and it's great.
Unfortunately I need to rehandle mine as I got the angle slightly wrong (my wrist is too twisted) which is annoying!

 

[OldJimbo]

Just my poor old eyes, Jason!
I think that the angled back edge is one of the best ideas that I've seen, and I'm surprised not to have seen it before. It takes some practise with a regular one before wrist stress is overcome - and I'd imagine that lots of people don't see the advantages of a crooked knife because they can't use it with slicing cuts at first and give up. With slicing cuts, the crooked knife becomes a tool with incredible potential to work seasoned hard wood. Proper cuts with a crooked knife should be almost effortless, even on seasoned birch. I was amazed when things came together for me.