The perfect Bushcraft knife!

[uk ken]

Hello

I was a member here some years ago but did more lurking/reading than posting. Some of you might recognise me from the British Blades Forum and other knife forums including Spyderco. Which brings me to the point, Sal Glesser, the owner of Spyderco is considering making a Bushcraft knife.

Martyn at British Blades suggested that I ask the question here.......What would be your perfect Bushcraft knife.

Steel........
Blade length.......
Handle length.......
Grind.......
Blade geometry.....Spear point.......Drop point......
Handle material......
Sheath......

I would appreciate any comments.

Cheers, Ken

 

[capacious]

Personally...

Either a High-Carbon core sandwiched between softer steel (18/8 steel, for example), or 01 tool steel.

59rc.

4.5 - 5.5 inch blade, 3-4mm thick.

5inch-ish handle.

Full tang.

Flat, single bevel grind (scandi grind?)

I prefer a drop point blade, but many prefer spear point.

Seeing as we're all bushcrafters here, a wooden handle would probably be preferred by most, as we tend to like natural materials. The problem is, there are so many woods to choose from. I prefer a darker wood, such as Walnut or Rosewood. But Curly burch is also very popular. (so perhaps a choice of different handle materials would be the best option here.... perhaps even leather.)

The sheath should be strong waxed leather, with the option of a firesteel holder (which I hate, but many love).

The one thing you should keep in mind is that no two people agree on what would be the perfect knife. Plenty would say that Ray Mears has already acheived this, but I tend to disagree. There should, at the very least, be an option between handle materials and blade length (i.e. 4in and 5in blade, with either a Birch or Mahogany handle.)

And remember that these need to 'user' knives - so the highest build quality is essential (but with Sydercos reputation, I don't think it is really necessary to say that). And multi-function is the key - the same knife has to be able to fillet a fish, bone a haunch of venison, skin a rabbit, split kindling and make a feather stick all in the same day.

Jake.

 

[tarmix101]

Hello

I was a member here some years ago but did more lurking/reading than posting. Some of you might recognise me from the British Blades Forum and other knife forums including Spyderco. Which brings me to the point, Sal Glesser, the owner of Spyderco is considering making a Bushcraft knife.

Martyn at British Blades suggested that I ask the question here.......What would be your perfect Bushcraft knife.

Steel........
Blade length.......
Handle length.......
Grind.......
Blade geometry.....Spear point.......Drop point......
Handle material......
Sheath......

I would appreciate any comments.

Cheers, Ken

Wow Ken. Thats a question, wrapped in a riddle, laced with an enigma :yikes: . The only reason I say that is, I'm sure there isn't "one" perfect bushcraft knife. However you asked for personal opinions so here is mine.

I like carbon steel. I don't have a problem with taking a little extra care of my blade against rust. I feel the benefits are far greater. For me O1 is a good steel for this. Price vs performance (depending on the heat treat of course) is a good one.

I don't care for blades over 4". I know many folks in the States would disagree, but it's what works for me. I also carry a axe and a small folder to aid in my duties @ camp and on the trail.

The handle on my main utility blade is right @ 4 1/2". Again, depends on how big/small a persons hands are.

I like micarta for it's strength. I like the look of a natural material much better, but I'm more after function.

I like the scandi grind for utility (I do add a secondary edge bevel of about 20 degrees however) and a thin flat grind for skinning/cook chores.

Spear point for my utility blade.

Noting beats bees wax treated leather for a sheath IMHO. Kydex is to stiff for me. I always end up with the butt end the the handle in my kidney when I sit down

This is a good question, asked quite a bit. In the end you must make your own decision on what works best for you. Personal preferences, what you are going to use the knife on, and environment all come into play here. For me the hunt for what worked for me was almost as fun as using the perfect knife for me.

I generally carry a Wetterlings SHA. My Allen Blade Bushcrafter. And last but not least my Vic Farmer. I would feel a little "naked" without all three

 

[EdS]

just to add to the above- cheap enought to loose and not feel gutted.

 

[philaw]

If they're going to make a best-possible knife, people won't agree on exactly what they want, but it'll come out looking something like a woodlore knife. I an't imagine there's ay real room for them to imrpove the standard, like there was with folding knives before the UK penknife they made.

If anything, I'd sugggest a knife with a blade profile like the woodlore, but thinner, and a stick tang. It's just about the only thing that could improve on a mora. They could put a kind of pommel on it like the bison bushcraft knife and that would add some hammering ability. All they'd need to then is keep the price down, and I might even buy one!

 

[Millbilly]

As has been suggested on BB, why not take over the production of the woodlore, where WS left off?

 

[Shinken]

Well for me a bushcraft knife has to be strong, and good for carving and i like spear point or deep drop point for skinning but it dosnt need it as long as you are carefull. I like zero grind or scandi as most people call it because i feel it bites into the wood better when carving. not too thick 3-4mm blade not too long 3.5'' ish

I dont think it makes a lot of diff what steel it is as long as its good steel.

Just my opinion of course

Has to be WELL made!

 

[British Red]

Hello

I was a member here some years ago but did more lurking/reading than posting. Some of you might recognise me from the British Blades Forum and other knife forums including Spyderco. Which brings me to the point, Sal Glesser, the owner of Spyderco is considering making a Bushcraft knife.

Martyn at British Blades suggested that I ask the question here.......What would be your perfect Bushcraft knife.

Steel........
Blade length.......
Handle length.......
Grind.......
Blade geometry.....Spear point.......Drop point......
Handle material......
Sheath......

I would appreciate any comments.

Cheers, Ken

Ken,

Steel........
01 tool steel is fine - I don't pretend to be a metalurgist, the important point is that the knife must be field maintainable - this is more a question of grind and hardness. Therefore if one of the modern "super steels" can have the right hardness and better rust protection, fantastic. What I would never buy is anything with a laminated steel or a soft spine (rubbish for fire steels, batoning etc.)

Blade length.......
4" cutting edge with 3/4" ricasso (to aid finger curl or thumb grip dependant on orientation) , more gets awkward for many tasks

Handle length.......
4 1/2" seems to suit me. I like a contoured handle with no guard.

Grind.......
Scandy or full flat grind. I like the convex grind but its too difficult to restore if medium to severe edge damage occurs

Blade geometry.........
I would like to see a fine taper drop point (much more so than the Woodlore) - far better for boring holes and fine work. The spine should be square. 4 transverse file line to the spine above the ricasso to provide a top thumb grip or index finger on an underhand grip (also helps on fire steel sparking). I would like a narrower and slightly thinner blade than is often seen which are too cumbersome I find. 3mm by 1 1/4" width


Handle material......
Whilst I prefer wood, it is dodgy for game prep (porous and absorbs fluids). For a commercial knife, I'd go for stabalised wood, micarta or synthetic. Must have a lanyard tube of couse. I think one of the most sensible options would be to offer a variety of scales at price points. Economically a pain but people do like to be a bit different - the micarta option adds a fair whack to an F1 but people like it.

Sheath......
Leather, friction fit (must be positive), should have the "double dangler" or "scandy swivel" type double loop so that it can be worn high on the hip and not foul undergrowth etc. or low to hang below a bergan hip belt. It should be cut to be ambidextorous. I like a firesteel loop. Many don't. I would suggest a removable one (someone here designed one). One of the best things the F1 has going for it is a choice of sheaths - I'd suggest an ambidextorous scandi swivel, with a firesteel loop option and also a neck carry option.
I carry a DC4 stone on a front pouch on my sheath, but I doubt that would be a commercial option.

Heres a pic of the sheath Tiffers made for me since I couldn't find one that ticked all the boxes for me if that helps explain what I'm on about

Many more piccs and blather available but don't want to thread hog!

Hope That Helps

Red

 

[tarmix101]

Many more piccs and blather available but don't want to thread hog!

Hope That Helps

Red

Sorry to get O.T., but that sheath is brilliant

 

[British Red]

I claim all the credit (oh other than the entire manufacturing and finishing and paulting and stitching which was Tiffers...oh yeah she actually improved the design too )

Red

 

[Shing]

I like the Woodlore style knife but with a full height flat grind for better slicing and fine cutting. Its a good design and works well.

O1 is a good steel, tested for decades and still holds up, I would temper it what some would consider slightly too soft at Rc56-57 but it would be tougher than Rc58-59 and easier to keep sharp in the field with a small stone.

A micarta handle is very practical and virtually indestructable but I like wood and a well figured cocobolo handle looks and feels lovely in the hand.

A knife needs a sheath, stout leather waterproofed with beeswax and Neats Foot Oil is very durable and flexible enough to hold the knife firmly but let you draw it easily.

 

[fred gordon]

Not being a bushcraft knife expert I am reluctant to get into this debate. However, I feel I have one question. How much would a knife like the ones being described above cost? I ask this partly because it's likely I could never afford one and partly because there is a lot of talk about things costing a lot and where to get it cheapest. I take it this might not apply in this case!

 

[Hoodoo]

George Herter ran an old-timey sporting goods store out of Mitchell S.D. It was quite an operation in its day (similar to Cabelas) but for whatever reason declined in the late 70s.

I don't think the word modest could be used to describe George. He was also quite a salesman and could hawk a product like nobody’s business. One of the books George wrote was called "Professional Guide's Manual," written for the North Star Guide Association (which probably did not even exist). There are a lot of wonderful outdoor tips in the book (or books-lots of versions out there) about hunting and fishing, along with a lot of his self-promotion and sales pitches. I learned how to clean a squirrel from this book and I cured some stomach problems I once had using a tip from this book.

One section, How to Buy an Outdoor Knife I thought might be interesting for this discussion on bushcraft knives. Perhaps some thoughts outside the woodlore box.

How to Buy an Outdoor Knife by George Leonard Herter

An outdoor knife must be made for service--not show. Your life may depend on it. Real outdoor people realize that so-called sportsmen or outdoor knives have long been made for sale, not for use. The movies and television show their characters wearing fancy sheath knives. Knife makers advertised them and drugstore outdoorsmen bought them. Nothing marks a man to be a tenderfoot more than these showy useless knives.

Here are some of the duties a true woodsman knife must perform:

1. The knife must stay sharp for long periods of time without shapening. The steel should combine the best characteristics of electric furnace quality high carbon 1095 steel and high carbon 440 B stainless steel. The blade hardness, known among steel experts as 56 Rockwell C, should not be affected by atmospheric moisture, salt spray, fruit acids or blood. It should withstand extreme temperatures without becoming brittle, no matter how cold it may be. A good steel knife blade will "blue" or darken itself with use, making it pratically rustproof. If knife blade steel is really good, it will cut through nails without bending over the edge.

2. The knife must be shaped so it is ideal for cleaning and skinning game of all kinds, from rabbits to moose. The best shape for this is the improved Bowie.

3. The knife must have a handle long enough so that it fits a man's hand so pressure can be put on the blade when desired. On nearly all outdoor knives the handles are much too short. The handle of the knife must be made to last a lifetime. Leather handles rot and mildew, stag handles crack, plastic handles crack and are highly inflammable. African mineral-type woods are best, and they will stand all kinds of weather for a lifetime and more.

4. The blade of the knife must not be hollow ground. Hollow grinding weakens a blade so that the edge will bend or break under heavy usage. A wedge edge is the strongest and most durable ever designed.

5. The blade of the knife must be hand forged in order to give the steel maximum strength and hardness.

6. The blade of the knife must not have a blood groove. A blood groove is strictly advertising and badly weakens the blade. Professional butchers do not use them.

7. The knife must be easy to carry and light in weight. The blade length must be 4 inches long. Four inches is the length established for a woodsman knife by over 200 years of experience. Blades shorter are all right for Boy Scouts, but not for serious woodsmen, Longer than 4 inches is unnecessary and adds weight.

8. The knife should have no hilt as it only adds weight. If the knife blade is properly designed, that is slightly indented, you cannot cut your finger no matter how hard you thrust. You need only thrust in a hand to hand combat with a man or a wounded animal.

9. The knife must be capable of slicing bacon and cutting bread. It must be a comfortable knife for eating and cutting cooked meat.

I dislike seeming prejudiced but the George L. Herter knife made by Herter's is and has been the choice of real outdoor people.

*******************
The top knife is Herter’s Improved Bowie, the bottom knife is the George L. Herter knife, which should look familiar to a lot of folks here.

 

[British Red]

So a Grohmann then

 

[Martyn]

2. The knife must be shaped so it is ideal for cleaning and skinning game of all kinds, from rabbits to moose. The best shape for this is the improved Bowie.

I think there is the difference between the American outdoorsman and the British bushcrafter.

 

[Ogri the trog]

Oh Wow is this ever going to be complicated subject.
I suppose it might start with - What aspect of Bushcraft would we like the knife to cover? Steel, grind, geometry etc will depend on its use;
Wood cutting for fires, fine carving, food prep - all have their good and not-so-good points.
I really like the shape and feel of the Woodlore or at least copies thereof, and I suppose that I'd be at the end of a long queue to see Spyderco's take on the Woody would look like.

ANyway for your records, heres my preferences:-
Steel...O1, or other carbon steel
Blade length... 3 to 4 inches seems sufficient.
Handle length.... 4 1/2 to 5 inches
Grind... Scandi
Blade geometry.....Spear point yep
Handle material.... Wood preferably but Spydie resins are good too
Sheath.... Leather neck sheath.

ATB

Ogri the trog

 

[Hoodoo]

So a Grohmann then

I don't believe Grohmann ever made that knife for Herter.

The last company to make either of those knives for Herter was R. Murphy. In fact, I don't think Grohmann even knew Herter was offering a Russell belt knife, which is the general name for that style, named after D.H. Russell, who originally designed the knife, with input from others, including Grohmann. Herter claimed he designed the knife. He may or many not have had an input. Who knows? Here is what Grohmann has on their website:

"Within a year, Grohmann and his family arrived in Nova Scotia at the invitation of the provincial government-funded Pictou Cutlery, which closed after three years. Mr. Grohmann, determined to make knives, built a garage workshop & began producing & engraving folding knives designed by himself. Shortly after, Mr. Grohmann met with Mr. Deane H. Russell and together they set out to design a truly Canadian knife. After field testing with the help of hunters & trappers across the north, the D.H. Russell Belt Knife #1 was born, which along with various other designs, won many awards and recognitions worldwide. Grohmann and Russell created three more models together, the #2, #3, & #4."

The part about being tested by hunters and trappers suggests that lots of folks may have contributed to the final design.

 

[Hoodoo]

I think there is the difference between the American outdoorsman and the British bushcrafter.

Well, the so-called improved bowie looks nothing like the American Bowie design. It also looks very little like what Americans typically carry into the woods today. Knife designs like this harken back to the early 20th century and before. Additionally, I think Grohmann would argue that it's a Canadian design.

 

[British Red]

You are a mine of information Hoodoo - either way though, Its a long way from my perfect knife (I have a grohmann large skinner though which is a great knife for its job and in fact where I decided I like horizontal file work - it really helps with the thumb grip)

Red

 

[Andy]

The top knife is Herter’s Improved Bowie, the bottom knife is the George L. Herter knife, which should look familiar to a lot of folks here.

The top one looks like a standard butchers boning knife to me
http://www.sworddepot.com/product_images/vn-40010.gif