Smallest packable sleep system for UK use

[Quixoticgeek]

Note, AMK make more than one survival bag. The one that is most interesting is actually the "Escape Bivvi". It's 50-60 quid in the UK. But can be got on the US amazon for 25 quid... It's a breathable bivvi bag, that is also reflective. They claim it's warm enough to use as a normal sleeping bag down to around 12.7°C (55°F). Tho I would take that with a pinch of salt. The main complaint from many is that it's a bit small. I could fit a Snugpak SF2 sleeping bag and me in the bag, but it's a bit tight on the hips, compressing the loft and giving a cold spot, if you don't have as big a backside as me, then you'll be fine. I'm waiting to try it in warmer conditions with a smaller bag before posting a full review. Beyond that the only other issue I've had with it is that it's a right pain to get it back in it's stuff sack... The bag comes in both Olive green and high visibility orange. However the UK importer only imports the Orange version. If you want the green one you have to order it from the US.

AMK make a selection of other survival bags with varying levels of insulation/warmth, but the Escape, and it's zipless counterpart the Escape Lite, are the only ones that are breathable. Spend more than a few hours in a non breathable bag and you will know about it.

Hopefully that gives you something to think about.

Julia

 

[vestlenning]

300g, same size as a VHS tape (do you know what that is kids? ) and waterproof.
.

The kids: How many smart phones?

 

[Teepee]

The kids: How many smart phones?

Lol. Not sure-6? it's about 6 stacked Laplanders (not the people), the standard unit of bushcraft measurement.

 

[ateallthepies]

Thanks for all the ideas! I have gone with one of those SOL bags, cheaper from the USA by a few quid with no duty! Also ordered a Snugpak Jungle bag as the packed size is good and price ok.

Will do an overnighter and report back soon.

 

[Bluffer]

A lightweight bivvy bag and a lightweight insulated jacket and trousers would be the flexible solution. i.e. you can wear the suit as sleepwear but also still be mobile if required (unlike a sleeping bag).

Alpkit make the cheapest user-friendly lightweight bivvy bags.

However, a quality insulated suit won't be cheap as you'd ideally want down or quality synthetic (e.g. primaloft or polartec alpha). Down is OK to be compressed for long periods, it will re-loft.

I'd stay away from Paramo overjackets and/or Jerven bags if you want the whole outfit to fit into a 10-litre pack.

Personally, I've overnighted (1-2 nights) in various conditions (including desert and winter) with a sub 20-litre pack of fairly standard off-the-shelf gear. It's never particularly pleasant, but I'll do it again.

If you use an Alpkit or OMM pack, it has an integral foam sleep pad.

 

[mrcharly]

A lightweight bivvy bag and a lightweight insulated jacket and trousers would be the flexible solution. i.e. you can wear the suit as sleepwear but also still be mobile if required (unlike a sleeping bag).

I've done this when cycling - just packed a few extra thermals, got into bivvi bag, woolly hat and socks on. Comfortable at overnight temp of 10C.

 

[tallywhacker]

For compact 2-3 season+ stuff check out insultex or down, your looking at optimal warmth:volume. I don't think insultex truly breathes though, same as the sol's, unless you vent it. Check out down top quilts opposed to full bags, UK hammocks sell em. No point in carrying insulation that would be compressed underneath you on a super compact kit. Just make sure the dimensions are right to cover your sides while on the floor. EDIT: Katabatic make the best i have seen, very expensive, but they clip to you pad and really are the best you can get. The sawatch it the bees knees for 3 season Matt @ UK hammocks does custom work on occasion, always get overstuff. Down top quilts work great in combi with a Hunka style bivvi and torso pad like a prolite. Very compact and warm setup, combine with a small tarp or issue poncho for 2-3 season+ use.

I wouldn't depend on a SOL/mylar shelter in all honesty, it is quite well established now that those mylar shelters only really work because of the *VBL effect*, unless this is some fancy bottom SOL bag i have not seen that has loft. From memory their breathable one is only actually breathable if you vent it correctly, but i may be mistaken. The whole mylar/radiant heat thing is moot if you are clothed according to 'experts' on backpackinglight.com, unless you are bordering on hypothermia, which is really how they came about.. They really are emergency kit, intended for surviving.

To put this into perspective look at that rating, 12.7C, i am warm in decent thermals and fleece/trousers beyond that temperature unless it is windy, you? Others here seem to agree. Some people seem to be happy with a SOL, but really, look at em as a VBL opposed to a 1-2 season bag. Not knocking em all together, they seem to work for some and each to their own.

Probably the best thing to do if you are unsure about things is to take that bag to somewhere like mountan warehouse, ask the staff first ofc, and cram as much stuff as you can in there. This is what i would try and get for my own 3 season+ bug out bag:

Shelter:
Small silnylon tarp, or issue poncho
Cord, knife, firesteel, maybe a folding saw
2-3 season Down bag or top quilt
Torso length prolite pad
Hunka bivvi
Thermals

Other bits not mentioned:
Dehydrated meals
Alpkit mytmug filled with a meths stove+stand [check out the evernew DX meths/wood stove], foil wind break, spare fire steel or lighter.
250ml meths [2 nights easy]
water bottle
issue poncho, if not packed already

For summer only i would ditch the tarp and quilt, maybe grab a fleece throw. I would keep the poncho in case the weather turns though to use as light duty tarp. I don't consider a bivvi a rain shelter, they help with condensation and dew at best when combined with a tarp. Obviously roll opposed to stuff where possible to save space.

Each to their own though, but its the list i have been planning for a bug out bag. 20L is a VERY small bag, you will struggle to get comfy for sensible money IMHO unless you are talking 1 season.

 

[Quixoticgeek]

For compact 2-3 season+ stuff check out insultex or down, your looking at optimal warmth:volume. I don't think insultex truly breathes though, same as the sol's, unless you vent it. Check out down top quilts opposed to full bags, UK hammocks sell em. No point in carrying insulation that would be compressed underneath you on a super compact kit. Just make sure the dimensions are right to cover your sides while on the floor. Matt @ UK hammocks does custom work on occasion, always get overstuff. Down top quilts work great in combi with a Hunka style bivvi and torso pad like a prolite. Very compact and warm setup, combine with a small tarp or issue poncho for 2-3 season+ use.

The problem with something that relies on loft for insulation is that you can't really leave it packed and compressed in the BoB. The only sleeping bag that reacons you can do that is Wiggys. This is why things like the Blizzard bag exist.

I am however happy to be proven wrong on this one.

Julia

 

[tallywhacker]

Not strictly true.

Insultex does not actually compress but uses loft. It is non breathable, it works in differentialy cut layers. The more layers the more air is retained. it can be fiddly though and may need pulling around in the night... Check it out it is hard to describe at this hour after wine

As for down, it can actually be stored for quite a while without issue depending on quality. I have a friend with an ancient down bag he has had since his teens, he leaves it stuffed and still has no issue. I think is is 500 goose down. 500 fil and 900 fil are also different beasts on longevity, i remember reading some downs store better than others, where and which i do not know. How long is probably debatable though, i agree probably not forever. One thing to consider is that down is so warm, if you lose efficiency on an overstuffed 3 season you probably will still have a 3 season bag. I think 20% overstuff adds in the region of 10C, from memory. Backpacking light really is the place to go for the ins and outs on down though, it is their go to insulation. Besides, you don't have to compress it to have it compact which will no doubt help. At the end of the day it is going to be better than a SOL, which is just a VBL. There is nothing useful about mylar as insulation, radiated heat is moot in cloths and 12C is nothing. You would get the same VBL effect from a bin liner as you would a regular mylar bivvi.

Then there are climashield and primaloft which can be stored compacted, albeit bulky and not for a 20L pack. Climashield can maintain a good portion of it's ability compressed and wet, 90% from memory. Things have become beyond loft:warmth now with synthetics. I have some faulty climashield here that us under standard loft for the density, comes in at 19mm opposed to i think 25mm per layer and is just as warm as the full loft stuff.

 

[Quixoticgeek]

Not true.

Insultex does not actually compress but uses loft. It is non breathable, it works in layers. The more layers the more air is retained. it can be fiddly though and may need pulling around in the night... Check it out it is hard to describe at this hour after wine

As for down, it can actually be stored for quite a while without issue depending on quality. I have a friend with an ancient down bag he has had since his teens, he leaves it stuffed and still has no issue. I think is is 500 goose down. 500 fil and 900 fil are also different beasts on longevity, i remember reading some downs store better than others, where and which i do not know. How long is probably debatable though, i agree probably not forever. One thing to consider is that down is so warm, if you lose efficiency on an overstuffed 3 season you probably will still have a 3 season bag. I think 20% overstuff adds in the region of 10C, from memory. Backpacking light really is the place to go for the ins and outs on down though, it is their go to insulation. Besides, you don't have to compress it top have it compact which will no doubt help. At the end of the day it is going to be better than a SOL, which is just a VBL.

Then there are climashield and primaloft which can be stored compacted, albeit bulky and not for a 20L pack. Climashield can maintain a good portion of it's ability compressed and wet, 90% from memory. Things have become beyond loft:warmth now with synthetics. I have some faulty climashield here that us under standard loft for the density, comes in at 19mm opposed to i think 25mm per layer and is just as warm as the full loft stuff.

[citation needed]

 

[tallywhacker]

[citation needed]

Which part exactly?


Radiated heat? Mylar being a VBL in the context of insulation [hypothermia aside]? Well established fact tbh, there is no burden of proof for established principles. Feel free to look for yourself on all accounts It is probably gonna take some reading to satisfy your own mind no doubt as to whether mylar is any good as an insulator so you may as well truly look into it for yourself. If you go over to an ultra light orientated site that covers this kind of thing often, like backpackinglight or hammockforums and propose mylar as a multiple night, comfortable insulator opposed to down/insultex i am quite sure you will quickly see what i mean. You will be inundated with assertions based on facts, such as:

- clothing greatly reduces radiated heat loss; mylars place is radiated heat loss.. See diminishing returns.
- convective and conductive heat loss is more important than reflective heat loss if wearing base layers, see above.
- mylar gives minor warmth and retains moisture; VBL gives minor warmth and retains moisture (Both are essentially acting as a VBL [where hypothermia is not a factor]).
- 12C is not cold at all, up here in the north that is reasonably warm; SOL bag is rated to 12C.


Longevity of down after compression? Yes, debatable and probably circumstantial. But unless you mean to say it loses near all of it's ability to insulate by being kept in a bag it is still a better option than mylar.


Climashield? I am fairly sure that was on their website at one point regarding efficiency while compressed and wet, but like i said a cannot remember where i read that. It was out there at one point for climashield apex's sales pitch, somewhere. I ran all of the CLO:comfort calcs for the cs apex i have and mirrored it against my own CLO/comfort scale which i mentioned in another recent thread; both the faulty low loft and true loft apex have the exact same result for the same density: 2 layers get cold at around 4C which is bang on target for that CLO rating regardless of loss of loft. Obviously i cannot prove that so take that or leave it, but it rang true with what i read about it. It is also quite widely accepted that long and short strand insulations deal well with long term compression. Regardless, i do not recommend CS or primaloft for a 20L bag but your comment was very vague so i am clarifying everything.


Insultex? Google Insultex It can definitely be stored long term 'compressed'; you essentially deflate it the material itself is never truly compressed.


As for the blizzard bag, no it exists as a survival bag, emergency kit. The clue is in the name. Even on their site it says "It's made from our unique Reflexcell™ material, which blocks heat loss more effectively than any other emergency product." "The Blizzard Survival Bag is a revolution in thermal protection for any situation in which people need to be kept warm, or treated immediately for chilling and hypothermia"


That kit list i posted is about the warmest, most weather proof 3 season setup you will get for the volume assuming you don't want to gather materials on site. Albeit it will cost. A mylar style bag would not even come close even if the down had been stored fully compressed for over a decade.

 

[tallywhacker]

[combined below]

 

[mrcharly]

Insultex looks interesting but it is impermeable to water - so will make a pretty sweaty sleeping bag, surely?

 

[tallywhacker]

Insultex looks interesting but it is impermeable to water - so will make a pretty sweaty sleeping bag, surely?

That is the main complaint, needs venting. Another is cold spots as the layers shift in the night. I look at it as 'mylar/vbl plus' because it can be very toasty for some even in snow. Somewhere along the lines i think there is going to have to be a compromise though, that is such a small pack size, 35L would give you many more options but if the bag is set then it is set, i can understand wanting a tiny bag. There is going to be a penalty with each option, whether it be needing bigger bag (climashield); risking cold spots and moisture (insultex); down (cost); mylar (VBL/radiated heat points already made). Each have their own merits too.

It could be worth getting the basics like a bivvi, poncho/tarp, thermals etc etc and seeing what space you have left, from there you can either get a slightly bigger bag or properly gauge your option. Perhaps at that point head out with another bag full of spare bits and see what works for you for the remaining space. You could easily find that if you are dressed appropriately and sheltered from the wind that a light wool blanket and fire is all you need, 3 season here is not all to harsh rain/wind aside.

 

[Quixoticgeek]

Which part exactly?


Radiated heat? Mylar being a VBL in the context of insulation [hypothermia aside]? Well established fact tbh, there is no burden of proof for established principles. Feel free to look for yourself on all accounts It is probably gonna take some reading to satisfy your own mind no doubt as to whether mylar is any good as an insulator so you may as well truly look into it for yourself. If you go over to an ultra light orientated site that covers this kind of thing often, like backpackinglight or hammockforums and propose mylar as a multiple night, comfortable insulator opposed to down/insultex i am quite sure you will quickly see what i mean. You will be inundated with assertions based on facts, such as:

- clothing greatly reduces radiated heat loss; mylars place is radiated heat loss.. See diminishing returns.
- convective and conductive heat loss is more important than reflective heat loss if wearing base layers, see above.
- mylar gives minor warmth and retains moisture; VBL gives minor warmth and retains moisture (Both are essentially acting as a VBL [where hypothermia is not a factor]).
- 12C is not cold at all, up here in the north that is reasonably warm; SOL bag is rated to 12C.

Note, AMK make a number of different survival bags, the one I linked to, the Escape bivvi, is their breathable version. Inspired by your comments about how breathable it isn't. I slept in it last night. I had my snugpak TS1 liner inside, and that was it. I slept fine, come morning there is no condensation on the inside of the bag. Which makes me think it has breathed, which is impressive as this is less than ideal circumstances, indoors in the still air is not normally ideal for a breathable membrane.

Yes 12°C isn't exactly cold, I also don't necessarily assert that it should be used on it's own. The escape bivvi can be used as a bivvi bag with a sleeping bag inside it! I know, shocking isn't it!.

Longevity of down after compression? Yes, debatable and probably circumstantial. But unless you mean to say it loses near all of it's ability to insulate by being kept in a bag it is still a better option than mylar.

Every down bag manufacturer gives you a large bag to store the down bag in uncompressed, I'm guessing they do this for a reason. However, my point stands. Please, [citation needed].

Climashield? I am fairly sure that was on their website at one point regarding efficiency while compressed and wet, but like i said a cannot remember where i read that. It was out there at one point for climashield apex's sales pitch, somewhere. I ran all of the CLO:comfort calcs for the cs apex i have and mirrored it against my own CLO/comfort scale which i mentioned in another recent thread; both the faulty low loft and true loft apex have the exact same result for the same density: 2 layers get cold at around 4C which is bang on target for that CLO rating regardless of loss of loft. Obviously i cannot prove that so take that or leave it, but it rang true with what i read about it. It is also quite widely accepted that long and short strand insulations deal well with long term compression. Regardless, i do not recommend CS or primaloft for a 20L bag but your comment was very vague so i am clarifying everything.

The problem with any synthetic insulation is it's bulk, even compressed down, a synthetic bag of any warmth is going to eat up the whole of a 20L bag. I am not 100% on the different trade names of the various synthetic insulations out there, the only one I've come across as claiming that they are still warm after vacuum compression is those made by Wiggy.

Insultex? Google Insultex It can definitely be stored long term 'compressed'; you essentially deflate it the material itself is never truly compressed.

I googled it, got a site styled from 1994, clicked on the link on where to find products made from it, and got a "you need to download flash to continue" message, and gave up. Hardly selling themselves. The non breath-ability of the product makes it a concern.

As for the blizzard bag, no it exists as a survival bag, emergency kit. The clue is in the name. Even on their site it says "It's made from our unique Reflexcell™ material, which blocks heat loss more effectively than any other emergency product." "The Blizzard Survival Bag is a revolution in thermal protection for any situation in which people need to be kept warm, or treated immediately for chilling and hypothermia"

If you are using a BoB, surely that is an emergency ? How long are you expecting to bug out for? How often are you expecting to bug out? Hence why I suggested it.

That kit list i posted is about the warmest, most weather proof 3 season setup you will get for the volume assuming you don't want to gather materials on site. Albeit it will cost. A mylar style bag would not even come close even if the down had been stored fully compressed for over a decade.

I think this is where we have slightly differing views on bug out practice. You see, if I had to pick up a BoB and go, then my chosen location, I would have no problem with using local materials, be it cutting green wood to make a shelter etc..., practices that I would not think as responsible in a non emergency situation. This reduces the need to rely so heavily on the bug out bag contents so much.

Ultimately your mileage may vary, and there is no one true way in any of this. You pays your money, you takes your choice.

Julia

 

[tallywhacker]

Note, AMK make a number of different survival bags, the one I linked to, the Escape bivvi, is their breathable version. Inspired by your comments about how breathable it isn't. I slept in it last night. I had my snugpak TS1 liner inside, and that was it. I slept fine, come morning there is no condensation on the inside of the bag. Which makes me think it has breathed, which is impressive as this is less than ideal circumstances, indoors in the still air is not normally ideal for a breathable membrane.

As i said, at last count as far i was aware their breathable one required venting and there could be a model i have not seen. Is that one you mention vented? Curious what it is made out of if not and how it lofts? Location, climate etc etc tend to be a big influence on whether you get wet too though even on a truly sealed bag. Plus something to note is that a VBL actually works by tricking the body into stopping perspiration and ceasing evaporative heat loss, feels clammy but moisture is not mandated, especially if executed properly by venting at the right time and wearing minimal cloths between skin > vbl.

Every down bag manufacturer gives you a large bag to store the down bag in uncompressed, I'm guessing they do this for a reason. However, my point stands. Please, [citation needed].

True, but i said that was opinion. Not sure why you are asking for citation for opinion and anecdotal experience? None the less i never meant it will take no hit at all, just that it will still stand up well enough and be plenty warm for volume, especially compared to a mylar bivvi.

The problem with any synthetic insulation is it's bulk, even compressed down, a synthetic bag of any warmth is going to eat up the whole of a 20L bag. I am not 100% on the different trade names of the various synthetic insulations out there, the only one I've come across as claiming that they are still warm after vacuum compression is those made by Wiggy.

Climashield apex and primaloft one are the two premiums to seek. It's worth noting i did not mean vacuum compression, i meant real world compressed in it's sack and/or bivvi limiting loft etc etc; reasonable standard use compression. Even non brand cheopo stuff has quite a rep for dealing with compression in normal use and long term, anecdotal though i agree. I only really mentioned synthetics as a compromise, yea way too bulky for a 20L, but for a few comfy nights something is going to have to give, whether it be money, comfort or pack size Something for the OP to mull over is all.

I googled it, got a site styled from 1994, clicked on the link on where to find products made from it, and got a "you need to download flash to continue" message, and gave up. Hardly selling themselves. The non breath-ability of the product makes it a concern.

Try looking in forums, the term 'insultex top quilt' is probably the best. They are not really marketing it, no. Not breathable, true. But like i say, 'mylar plus', you have to vent it. Venting is important. EDIT: in crude terms think of it like a VBL seated inside another VBL, which has a crude loft once you pull thew layers apart; if i interpret it correctly.

If you are using a BoB, surely that is an emergency ? How long are you expecting to bug out for? How often are you expecting to bug out? Hence why I suggested it.

The OP said earlier, when posed with comfort/survive:
"I think enjoy a few nights with this kit? I really don't think I will ever need this to survive though"

I think this is where we have slightly differing views on bug out practice. You see, if I had to pick up a BoB and go, then my chosen location, I would have no problem with using local materials, be it cutting green wood to make a shelter etc..., practices that I would not think as responsible in a non emergency situation. This reduces the need to rely so heavily on the bug out bag contents so much.

I agree that is a good way and i personally have two setups in mind. I am working on the style of build you mention now, getting tools and reading on natural materials for things i have not thought of. Been foraging for the past couple of year etc etc. But then there is the convenience style bug out, which has it's own uses for that quick night or two up the hills etc. The above natural material style is kinda obvious, take your tools abd knowledge etc and get to work, take some backup kit in case. Emergency bivvi would suit this well, i agree. The latter i assume is what the OP is after, there was only talk of gathering ground insulation unless i missed it? At least that's how i interpreted it, just trying to give the most appropriate response for intended use by the OP

Hope that clears it up, i am poor with wording, especially over forums.

Ultimately your mileage may vary, and there is no one true way in any of this. You pays your money, you takes your choice.

Could not agree more.