Outer layer

[Jaan]

Fjällräven has some G-1000 (polycotton) and Hydratic (like Gore-Tex) combo jackets, although they are quite expensive. What they do is add the Hydratic membrane between the G-1000 fabric so you have excellent wear resistance on the outside and the waterproof membrane in the middle.

Personally I go for a Gore-Tex jacket when it's raining a lot, but since heavy showers are not that common in Estonia I usually go for a single layer Fjällräven G-1000 jacket. Keeps out the wind (much more common) and light showers, breathes much better than membrane jackets and is better in the winter as a shell.

 

[Toddy]

I agree with John; traditional clothing is warm, comfortable and breathable, but...you do have to think in that mindset.
Damp's not going to kill you, but windchill will strip you of every degree of heat it can.

If you're sodden wet and can't get dry, keep moving. If your kit is sodden wet the next morning, tough, put it on, it'll dry on you as you walk and move around and you'll warm up too.
Be prepared to shift the outer layer on and off as the weather changes.
When it's dry the ventile will dry off with the heat of your body.

Good wool can be very easily made windproof, but in doing so it becomes thick and heavy. Like the dachstein mitts....it's felted. Felted wool sheds the rain a great deal more effectively than the lightly woven and fulled stuff that swannis are made from.
It has a huge advantage though, even wet it's warm.

No one has so far mentioned traditional Barathea wool cloth. Tightly spun, twill woven, light and flexible, it's breathable, very, very showerproof, and at least as effective as Ventile. It's damned expensive though.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[sandbender]

"...I'm thinking of using a merino wool base layer, with a bison bush shirt on top...I'm thinking about either wearing a Swanndri Bush Shirt as my outer layer, or using a synthetic poncho over the Bison shirt..."

I use Woolpower base layers, a Bison bush shirt and occasionally wear a Swandri Bush shirt over those. They work well together but make sure you get your sizing right, the Bison shirt is cut smaller than I expected, the Swandri is very generous in its sizing.

The Swandri Bush shirt is a fabulous bit of gear but you do end up looking a bit odd, if you wear one in town expect to be followed down the street by dogs and small children.

As much as I like the Swandri I'm not so sure I'd tackle the Pennine way or similar environment while wearing one.

For a poncho I usually use the old British Army 58 pattern poncho, its tough and makes for a nice (but small) tarp when needed. It will flap in the wind, but wear your pack over it rather than under it and this is much reduced.

Bison Bushcraft were producing a tweed outdoor jacket at one point, you could also check out some of the German hunting gear suppliers they often produce more 'outdoorsy' tweed outerwear.

It isn't natural I know but have you looked into Buffalo clothing? Wearing something like their teclite shirt as your only layer will keep you warm in very inclement conditions, it'll dry quickly but will need protecting from sparks and embers.

I have a Bison ventile jacket, its great albeit a bit military looking, it will work as a summer shirt on its own if needed. I rate the Snowsled ventile jackets too.

As a final option, what about wearing a feileadh mor or great kilt, you are from Yorkshire? That was under Scottish control for few months now and then, so I'm sure you would be allowed.

 

[treadlightly]

Like others here, I would go for a ventile/wool combination.

I think single ventile would be more practical for a long hike. One word of warning, if you wear a merino base layer and single ventile then when the ventile wets out you are going to feel damp, as the wool is not thick enough to absorb enough moisture.

The most vulnerable areas are the shoulders. I've found it useful to take an old jumper and cut off the sleeves and trunk so you only have the top of it so it protects shoulders without being too warm/bulky.

Another good way is to buy a tweed off cut and pin it over the shoulders of the ventile in bad weather, like a small cape. The wool takes the brunt of the rain and what seeps through, the ventile can deal with.

I would also forego the hood and wear a Tilley hat or similar. I've found that the area of ventile which takes longest to dry is that around the scrunched up hood once you lower it and this can get uncomfortable.

Tweed is also good, single ventile over a tweed jacket would deal well with msot weather.

I also agree with the comments that if you get a little wet its not the end of the world as long as you deal with it in the right way.

 

[wizard]

I've found that the most important thing about Gore-Tex over parkas is to have them fit quite loose. Also, if the humidity is very high there is almost no breathability. Once we were hiking about the beach on the coast of Oregon in a light rain and misty condition, wearing Gore-Tex and light down jackets underneath. When we returned to the car and took off the Gore-Tex we found that the down jackets were almost as wet as of no Gore-tex was worn over. The reason was that the humidity was very high and the Gore-Tex was tight against the down jacket. There was no room to breathe. I've had the same happen in a tent, in a GT bivy in the same high humid conditions. My sleeping bag got quite wet.

I think every shell has certain limitations and when you are aware of them you can use them accordingly. I get my Gore-Tex unfashionably large and stay aware of the humidity levels and open zippers to allow more breathability, if possible.

 

[Nonsuch]

Wool and Ventile are very popular here and I have both and like them for trips where there are big campfires every night, but for a multi-day trip where I could not dry out I would go pretty well 100% synthetic - high quality wicking synthetic base layer (AND underwear - beware chafing!!) good wicking fleece mid-layers and a Goretex or eVent outer shell. I might carry a single layer Ventile smock or a Paramo windshirt and wear that instead of the Goretex shell in light rain. This formula is especially true if you might end up 100% wet (eg canoe trip)

I find wool base layers and mid-layers hold the moisture unless you can dry them out with a campfire or physical exertion, whereas good wicking synthetics will be dry in no time. The modern good ones don't smell either. Just my 2p

 

[Beardy Adam]

I've received many mixed opinions here and I thank you all for your input. I'm still at a loss as to which to try though! As I mentioned, I've been down the 'wicking' base layers, windproof fleece and GoreTex route and it just didn't work for me, but then again I am asking a lot of the clothing I use because I will often be out climbing up a Scottish mountainside all day in Scottish weather, which as we all know is long and heavy rain, coupled with strong chill winds when on the tops. This together with a lack of drying facilities when I'm backpacking in remoter country is making it blummin' hard for me to choose the right material. Not to mention I need it to take the weight and abrasion of near constant pack use once I set off!

 

[Tiley]

Sounds like a Paramo job. Good stuff, not expensive, hardwearing and should last you your trip. Not great near a spitting, popping fire though.

 

[rik_uk3]

You say your out on Scottish hills all day? Its the synthetic route really then. I really rate Gortex but you don't, others here really rate eVent so may be worth you looking at that. Ventile won't keep you dry if your in wet exposed conditions any length of time so have you thought about a Barbour type jacket? http://www.orvis.co.uk/store/product.aspx?pf_id=77AC

 

[Nonsuch]

I used to be a big Paramo fan but on my last very wet backpack in the Lakes my Paramo let me down big time and I got wet through and stayed that way! Contrary to the publicity , my smock did not "pump" itself dry overnight, and faced with putting on a slightly damp-inside Gore Tex or a sodden Paramo in the morning I know which I would have chosen. The problem is that unless you reproof it every time before a big trip it can fail suddenly and you get a soaking. On the flip side you never get sweaty and it seems to work for plenty of other folks.

I think I'm up to 4p now…

Just another thought - you mention windproof fleece. Quiet a lot of them are not very breathable, especially Windstopper, and may have contributed to the boil in the bag effect under Goretex.

 

[mrcharly]

Pertex and pile and put up with the damp.

Go Buffalo

 

[sandbender]

"...I will often be out climbing up a Scottish mountainside all day in Scottish weather, which as we all know is long and heavy rain, coupled with strong chill winds when on the tops....together with a lack of drying facilities...I need it to take the weight and abrasion of near constant pack use..."

Seriously, try a buffalo top, even just one of the Teclite range, wear it on the mountain, put your woolies on when you stop for the night, put the a wet Buffalo top back on just as you begin to walk the next day, it'll keep you cosy, honest.

I have a Teclite shirt which is around eight or nine years old, it still does the job despite the abrasion from packs, spiky plants in far flung lands and long term exposure to both me, snow, hail, rain and sunshine.

 

[mrcharly]

For survivability in foul conditions, I'm a big fan of the pertex and pile system. It isn't as comfy as silk underwear, to be sure, but it will keep you warm and alive when you would have died of hypothermia if using other clothing.

I have (somewhere) a buffalo summer sleeping bag. With a montane p&p jacket on and a pair of thermal leggings, I've slept in that bag outside on the ground at -5. the jacket is pretty much ruined now, too many diesel and engine oil spills on it when acting as engineer on old barges. However, when the weather is foul, you are working too hard to switch about layers, the p&p stuff will cope with sweat, dirt, rain, snow, wind and keep your skin dry and warm.

 

[Beardy Adam]

Okay I think I've narrowed it down. From everything I've read about the environments I'll be in, it seems Ventile will be a good option when worn with wool. Yes, from what I gleaned from people's opinions it takes time to dry, but if worn over other layers this won't be a problem I think. To be honest, before I posted this I was thinking along the lines of a 4 layer setup anyway. Merino wool base layer, wool shirt in place of a fleece, shower proof/wind resistant layer, and a poncho for absolute deluges. Obviously wearing them to however the weather dictates, I can envisage this being quite robust and flexible enough to deal with the climate of the UK. Now for Ventile, I'd looked at the Country Innovations Kestrel Smock and I quite like the look of it, but what other companies make Ventile garments? I've heard of West Winds and Hilltrek, and the Snugpak factory is actually only a 15 minute walk from the village I live in to the village of Silsden where they are based.

 

[Totumpole]

Mine is a hilltrek ventile smock. Got it custom made for my birthday - not any mode expensive, but you gotta wait. Just remember to take into account what you wear under it
An how you would like it to lie. I have my actual hip measurements, and it's a bit on the snug side at the waste but still brilliant.
I take what some are saying about something with 2 layer at wear points. I'm not sure how you could get this, but if hilltrek do custom sizing, I suppose you could always ask for double layering on shoulders. All they can do is say no

 

[Nonsuch]

They will do a double layer if you ask them, as well as other customisations like pockets that sit higher up above your rucksack hip-belt and a wired hood. The are very nice people. Make sure you specify an over-size hood as it is only a two-piece design and too small in standard sizing.
How will your system work work when it is warm and wet?

I did try a walk or two in the rain in my local Scottish hills in wool-and-Ventile mode. Not for me! However I used to wear a single Ventile smock over synthetic base layers and fleece for hill-walkng for a while. It was pretty good, but wore quickly and got very soggy under the rucksack, and a proper waterproof was required for steady rain.

Of course when it is wet, Ventile does this, which is not ideal for a multi-day wet trip :

 

[Beardy Adam]

To be honest I have to make a compromise somewhere. I'm not wanting to try being completely traditional, as I don't have the knowledge or expertise to make it work and on a journey of this length it wouldn't be possible at this time, but I would prefer to wear natural fibres as opposed to synthetics. I think, traditionally the garment of choice for a journey such as this (and travellers of old I imagine) would have been a wool cloak, but that would take forever to dry and be very heavy. I need something that can handle pretty much everything that we get in the UK, but you can't have it all. A synthetic coat would keep me reasonably dry from the outside, but I would get soaked with perspiration on the inside and yes it would dry quickly, but it would not be rugged enough to cope with rocky scrambling or traipsing through woodland and dense undergrowth or scrub, and I'm not buying anything that requires me to re-proof it. I can put up with being damp in the morning until I get going if needs be. I'm not normally one to spend frugally when it comes to outdoor gear but the high price of Ventile would be worth it I think.

 

[Dreadhead]

alpaca wool poncho with tesco £5 waterproof poncho on top does it for me. plenty of time to dry things out overnight by embers. i dont understand why people are so troubled by being wet these days especially with all the downtime you get during the usual evenings out in the bush for drying etc

 

[Beardy Adam]

alpaca wool poncho with tesco £5 waterproof poncho on top does it for me. plenty of time to dry things out overnight by embers. i dont understand why people are so troubled by being wet these days especially with all the downtime you get during the usual evenings out in the bush for drying etc

It's not always possible to walk into a wood and start a fire to dry your gear, even more so when walking long distance routes or National Trails, and the last thing I want to do is have my campsite for the night stumbled upon by an angry farmer or landowner who wants to know why I'm desecrating his land.

 

[Ex-member EagleOwl]

It's not always possible to walk into a wood and start a fire to dry your gear, even more so when walking long distance routes or National Trails, and the last thing I want to do is have my campsite for the night stumbled upon by an angry farmer or landowner who wants to know why I'm desecrating his land.

It's different in Scotland.

Don't like getting wet unlike you my woolen clad chum because my goretex won't allow it.