legal definition of "locking mechanism"

[scarfell]

My old Higo sheath has given up the ghost, and i'm thinking about making a new one with a modification, but i'm a little concerned it moght no longer be classed as non locking...


The design is simple, a tube of leather which slides off the knife up the cord to allow the knife to open, then back down again to make a softer/slightly larger handle


The modification i'm thinking of this time, is a metal ring on one end (leather folded over it so its non remoavble); this ring can be placed over the finger catch on the tang, the part you usually hold to stop the knife closing


Although i still wouldnt trust it in the same way i can with a full tang, i wonder if it might be considered a lock?


This is my EDC 75mm blade

 

[Jared]

Sounds similar to a barrel knife.

And yes, I think it'd be considered a locking knife.

 

[Wayne]

I think you have answered your own question. You're thinking of making a modification that makes the knife less likely to close. That's a locking knife. Might not be a great lock but its purpose is to keep the blade open. I wouldn't want to stand in court and argue that you hadn't intended for the knife to be secured in the open position.

 

[scarfell]

Thats what i guessed, but then the little part sticking out for your thumb is designed to secure the blade aswell, something which afaik only Higos have

 

[Chainsaw]

Pulled from the excellent BritishBlades legal section;

A Crown Court case (Harris v DPP), saw an enthusiastic lawyer convincing a judge that a lock knife was equivalent to a fixed blade knife when the lock was engaged. Even though it has not been defined in a parliamentary act, it has never been overturned or superseded and so is effective law (case law). A lock knife for all legal purposes, is the same as a fixed blade knife. A folding pocket knife must be readily foldable at all times. If it has a mechanism that prevents folding, it's a lock knife (or for legal purposes, a fixed blade)!

ie anything that stops it closing by simply pushing on the blade is classifed as a locking mechanism

Hope this helps,

 

[Laurentius]

Pulled from the excellent BritishBlades legal section;



ie anything that stops it closing by simply pushing on the blade is classifed as a locking mechanism

Hope this helps,

The way I see it is that a lock knife is not a fixed blade until it is open and locked, of course that has never been tested in law yet, becuase the current precedent stands but it does not mean that it cannot be challenged.

All that aside, there is nothing illegal about a lock knife or a fixed blade if you have good reason to be carrying one, indeed forsome reason a lock knife seems to be percieved as more villainous than a fixed blade and don't ask me why, there is not much reason to it.

 

[nitrambur]

Thats what i guessed, but then the little part sticking out for your thumb is designed to secure the blade aswell, something which afaik only Higos have

Your thumb is not a mechanism, a metal ring is

 

[Nice65]

The way I see it is that a lock knife is not a fixed blade until it is open and locked, of course that has never been tested in law yet, becuase the current precedent stands but it does not mean that it cannot be challenged.

All that aside, there is nothing illegal about a lock knife or a fixed blade if you have good reason to be carrying one, indeed forsome reason a lock knife seems to be percieved as more villainous than a fixed blade and don't ask me why, there is not much reason to it.

There is no difference in law between a fixed blade and a lock knife, so it's a moot point as both come under the same ruling in Section 139. The only differentiation is between sub 3" slipjoint folders (readily foldable at all times), and the rest.

 

[Laurentius]

There is no difference in law between a fixed blade and a lock knife, so it's a moot point as both come under the same ruling in Section 139. The only differentiation is between sub 3" slipjoint folders (readily foldable at all times), and the rest.

I am not a lawyer but I would be prepared to argue that although an open and locked blade is no different from a fixed blade, a closed locking blade is no more readily deployable than a closed non locking blade, although the former would possibly be more lethal. It is as you say a moot point because I hope never to be in a position to have to argue that, but I think the point sometimes becomes obscured in all the mythology around it as if for some reason a locking blade is worse than a fixed one because it is stealthy or whatever. I guess it all goes back to those Teddy Boys and flick knives of my distant childhood and there propensity to rip up cinema seats at the mere sound of Bill Haley. I wouldn't carry a legal folder anywhere where it is not wise to do so, but equally I have no fear of carrying a fixed blade where I have absolutely no reason why not to.

 

[Nice65]

I am not a lawyer but I would be prepared to argue that although an open and locked blade is no different from a fixed blade, a closed locking blade is no more readily deployable than a closed non locking blade, although the former would possibly be more lethal.

How the knife is deployed has nothing to do with anything at all. As I said, in this argument there are two types of knife. The locking and fixed, and the sub3" readily foldable at all times. 2 types of knife, one legal with good reason, the other legal at all times. With some exemptions such as schools, airports etc, or where discretion suggests it's not a good idea.

It's possible for these discussions to go on for many days when in fact there's nothing to discuss. A couple of passages of Section 139 set it out very clearly.

Possession of Blades/Points.
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/l_to_o/offensive_weapons_knives_bladed_and_pointed_articles/#a09

Here's the FAQ sticky from BritishBlades

http://www.britishblades.com/forums/content.php?12-The-Law-FAQ

 

[Laurentius]

How the knife is deployed has nothing to do with anything at all. As I said, in this argument there are two types of knife. The locking and fixed, and the sub3" readily foldable at all times. 2 types of knife, one legal with good reason, the other legal at all times. With some exemptions such as schools, airports etc, or where discretion suggests it's not a good idea.

It's possible for these discussions to go on for many days when in fact there's nothing to discuss. A couple of passages of Section 139 set it out very clearly.

Possession of Blades/Points.
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/l_to_o/offensive_weapons_knives_bladed_and_pointed_articles/#a09

Probably, but beyond the letter of the law there is the intent of the law and why it was either enacted or interpreted as it was, and I think that the ability of a knife to be readily deployed in such a way as to cause harm was relevant to the way the law was interpreted. It all comes down to offensive weapons as knife law is just a subsection of that, in essence what the law is trying to prevent is the carrying of any object that has the capacity to be used in an agressive fashion which largely does come down to intent. Baseball bats being a case in point, a perfectly legal object but very suspicious if the carrier is not on the way to or from a game.

 

[Nice65]

A Swiss Army Knife would be another case in point. Anything carried with the intent to harm in fact.

The locking knife law, as it applies to the OPs question is cut and dried. If it has a mechanism to lock the blade, it becomes a locking knife by the addition of a mechanism that means the blade is not readily foldable at all times.

 

[Laurentius]

A Swiss Army Knife would be another case in point. Anything carried with the intent to harm in fact.

The locking knife law, as it applies to the OPs question is cut and dried. If it has a mechanism to lock the blade, it becomes a locking knife by the addition of a mechanism that means the blade is not readily foldable at all times.

I do not think it is cut and dried, it has not been challenged, when it has been challenged and either succeeds or fails then it will be cut and dried.

 

[Chainsaw]

I do not think it is cut and dried, it has not been challenged, when it has been challenged and either succeeds or fails then it will be cut and dried.

But it is cut and dried, right now, today, if it locks, it's a fixed blade to all intents and purposes. The nature of case law is that it is the law until it is overturned by challenge. Even if it is challenged and upheld, there is nothing to stop someone challenging it and overturning it later but today, "them's the rules!" The law is always changing, what you get done for depends on which laws are in force at that specific point in time.

 

[Corso]

I do not think it is cut and dried, it has not been challenged, when it has been challenged and either succeeds or fails then it will be cut and dried.

It was challenged here

http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/1998/385.html

and failed

 

[scarfell]

I think its clear that a locking mechanism which is designed as part of the knife to hold the blade without any interaction from the user, is a fixed blade by law

But, a ring as i described couldnt do that, its held in place by the hand holding the leather sheath, its simply to take some strain off the thumb, rather than act as a lock which would hold the blade secure as if it was a fixed blade

 

[Chainsaw]

There is no reference to whether or not it needs to be a part of the knife or not, the knife must be "immediately foldable at all times" ie no button to push ring to remove etc.

For the purposes of sections 139 and 139A of the Act:

• a "lock knife" doe not come into the category of "folding pocket knife2 because it is not immediately foldable at all times; (R v Deegan [1998] 2 Cr. App. R. 121 CA).

You are of course welcome to use your argument in your defence... The law is an bottom but it is what it is (until successfully challenged)

 

[Corso]

There is no reference to whether or not it needs to be a part of the knife or not, the knife must be "immediately foldable at all times" ie no button to push ring to remove etc.



You are of course welcome to use your argument in your defence... The law is an bottom but it is what it is (until successfully challenged)

that sums up my opinion too...

 

[Chainsaw]

As Nicey said

It's possible for these discussions to go on for many days when in fact there's nothing to discuss.

But I get people want to poke and prod a little to see if there is any wiggle room but lawyers are smart, maybe not commonsensical but smart...

 

[scarfell]

It seems that the whole thing hinges (sorry) on whether or not a folding knife can become a fixed blade knife, so as long as the ring cant stay in place or hold the blade secure by itself, i dont see how it could be considered a fixed blade tbh