for JD

[blacktimberwolf]

Viperine snakes rarely grow longer than 70 cm. The ones I've seen were always either in or very near water & invariably brown in colour with distinct darker brown or black adder/viper like markings & between 40 - 50cm long
I've roughly calculated the length of this beast, taking the knife as 9 cm long & come up with over 80 cm ( not including the end of the tail we can't see) BUT, I'm usually useless at guesstimating sizes from photos.
Though the grass & viperine snake are of the same Genus, Natrix, they can "usually" be told apart. for me this is a grass snake, possibly of European origin where there is more variation in colour & markings.

Discuss.

 

[JonathanD]

I've caught and recorded plenty of Viperines at 90cm to 100cm long. Captive bred specimens grow this size and larger due to perfect conditions and frequent feedings.

The pre and postoculars are not perfect for either species, although the 7th labial is more in keeping with a Grass snake. I think we are looking at a hybrid either captive bred, or, as Eds has seen more, a hybrid population stemming from a captive bred and released Viperine. Not many people keep that particular morph of Grass snake, and the prominence of the patternation rules out a UK morph. Viperines are a common captive species, and it won't be the first time this has happened. I'd love to get up there and look. A DNA sample would certainly tell us.

 

[leealanr]

I visited my rented out house in the Uk a couple of weeks agao. Their son had a picture of a snake which he had found at work in Norfolk. It looked very similar to this with quite bright yellow patches behind the head and a very dark body with a similar body pattern. I thought it was a young Adder.

What exacly is a viperine? Is it venomousor what?

I also saw quite a large black looking snake in Bramshill, hampshire while also over in UK, it was crawling along a road. The area is I am told noted for its adders. I did not get a very good look at it.

The Wadi I live on in Amman is apparently very well known for its constrictors, all black and a local Herpetologist told me the best ratters of all!

Alan L.

 

[EdS]

JD anytime you passing Leeds area call in.

Is there an easy way of getting a DNA sample from a live snake without harming it?

 

[JonathanD]

I visited my rented out house in the Uk a couple of weeks agao. Their son had a picture of a snake which he had found at work in Norfolk. It looked very similar to this with quite bright yellow patches behind the head and a very dark body with a similar body pattern. I thought it was a young Adder.

What exacly is a viperine? Is it venomousor what?

Sounds like a Grass snake to be honest Alan. Adders don't have yellow patches and the zig zag pattern is very distinctive. Adders also look like tehy are venomous. You can't mistake an adder once you see it, but Grass snakes are regularly confused as adders.

A Viperine is non-venomous, it just get's its name from the fact that some individuals have black zig zags down their backs similar to European vipers.

JD anytime you passing Leeds area call in.

Is there an easy way of getting a DNA sample from a live snake without harming it?

There is, but you need specialist equipment and training to avoid stressing and damaging the snake. Contaminating the sample is also very easy to do without the correct equipment and DNA kit.

 

[blacktimberwolf]

http://wildwildthings.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/grass-snake.jpg

This is supposedly a grass snake from the S.W.of France, similar markings to OP's snake.

 

[EdS]

JD - that is what I was thinking.

Better just get some goos pictures instead.

 

[JonathanD]

http://wildwildthings.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/grass-snake.jpg

This is supposedly a grass snake from the S.W.of France, similar markings to OP's snake.

Notice how the pre and postoculars differ on that animal. The nasal openings are also directed out and forward rather than up.

 

[blacktimberwolf]

here is a grass snake for comparison ...http://www.martinparrsnaturepics.com/USERIMAGES/030606 Grass snake (Natrix natrix) c(1).jpg & here is a viperine http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3655/5712915173_8de00e6189_z.jpg

 

[JonathanD]

Nice one. Those two pics show the scaleation perfectly.

 

[EdS]

spoke to my friend who is involved in the compost operation on site. They've had a look wild life guy out and he said there is a population of Italian grass snakes on site.

 

[Hoodoo]

Its not good if a native species hybridises out of existence but if two apparently different species do mate are they truly separate? IIRC from my biology GCSE lessons separate species are unable to breed together but I guess that is not true considering ligers exist in some zoos.

The term species is a concept, not a law. What constitutes a species has always defied simple definition because nature is what it is and we do the best to pigeonhole it with our concepts and definitions. The definition you refer to is the biological species concept. But there are lots of species that do not fall under that umbrella. For instance, organisms that only reproduce asexually do not.

 

[JonathanD]

spoke to my friend who is involved in the compost operation on site. They've had a look wild life guy out and he said there is a population of Italian grass snakes on site.

I sent your pics to a local herpetologist in Yorks who specialises in colubrids. Here's what he said:

It is difficult to be 100% affirmative with those pictures as the head is blurred, but it shouts captive bred N. n. persa/maura morph at first glance. N. n. persa was the the derivative that was crossed with the captive Viperine (maura) popular in the late 90's to bring out the yellow and bright olive colouration, so craved by mad collectors. There were and are more of those species available to the UK captive bred market than the pure bred persa or maura. I doubt a single pure specimen of those two snakes is even in private hands now, and they can only be found in professional collections in mainland Europe. As far as I know, there are three populations of persa/maura morphs within the UK. These are largely threatening our own Natrix population by watering down their genetic distinction. This is what happens when people mess with genetics.

 

[EdS]

JD - have you got contact deals for a herpetologist locally i'd love to have a chat or even a few hours "hunting" with them.

I'm planning on setting osme basking areas up in the field and trying to get decent pictures - the one above was a quicky with my phone.

 

[JonathanD]

It seems the devestation people have caused in Italy through breeding these morphs has led to almost an entirely new species being created...

The craze for different and stronger colour morphs within the snake collecting community has possibly tipped the balance in southern Italy and spurred an entirely new species to take hold. Tens and tens of persa/maura crosses were released by a well meaning study group to an area reclaimed from a large mining works. They quickly took hold and interbred with the pure wild population. The maura genes are strong within the captive bred population and pure black and yellow animals started to appear. In certain areas and spreading slowly, you can only find these created snakes and a pure population is increasingly rare. We have a similar problem with domestic/feral cats breeding with the wildcat in Scotland. Personally I am for wiping these populations out here in England as they are stronger and more aggressive than our native species and dominate the areas they spread to.

 

[JonathanD]

JD - have you got contact deals for a herpetologist locally i'd love to have a chat or even a few hours "hunting" with them.

I'm planning on setting osme basking areas up in the field and trying to get decent pictures - the one above was a quicky with my phone.

I'm at home at the moment. I'll nip to my office tomorrow afternoon and sort someone out for you. Simon is your best bet (the guy I've been speaking to), but he is 67 now and doesn't get out much. The local ARG are quite good, but they probably won't treat it as a priority, so I'll find someone who will and want to check it out in full with you.

 

[EdS]

many thanks

 

[Paul_B]

This is interesting. Please keep us all informed on this matter, I for one am very interested.

I agree with you about additions to the ecology of an area that disturbs the native or established species. IIRC the Ruddy duck is another case in point. The native European version from Spain to Britain and probably beyond is hybridising with the N American version imported for decorative reasons to estates. The American one is more dominant (not sure if that was in its genes or its breeding success). Anyway the local version is supposed to be under serious threat. Think the Spanish tried to lead the way with a cull but with the hybrids it was supposed to be hard to spot some from a distance so which do you cull?

What is it about mankind that wants to play with nature so? Having said that it has worked well with some animals such as domestic dogs and livestock.

 

[Hoodoo]

What is it about mankind that wants to play with nature so? Having said that it has worked well with some animals such as domestic dogs and livestock.

We do it because we can. Long term thinking is not one of our strong points.

 

[Paul_B]

One day perhaps as a species we will collectively earn the Darwin award for services to the gene pool by making ourselves extinct then the rest of nature can finally just get on with it.