feuerpumpe fire starting method

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Galemys

Settler
Dec 13, 2004
730
42
53
Zaandam, the Netherlands
Joseph Mollet produced a 4.5 inch 'pneumatic tinder box' which used amadou as the tinder.

I googled with this new name (well new for me) for the fire piston and found this link that suggests the invention of European fire pistons started in 1745:
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archiv...5D61F3FE73BBC4153DFB667838D669FDE&oref=slogin

Thank's Jodie, for helping us with this quest and for new starting points!

Cheers,

Tom

PS Jodie, you mentioned China as part of the fire piston distribution in your posts does that mean French Indochina (vietnam) or eh China China?
 

Matt Weir

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jun 22, 2006
2,880
2
52
Tyldesley, Lancashire.
Hmmm, interesting.

Bye the bye, I distinctly remember chewing hubble bubble gum in the early 1960's so some variation of the name has certainly been about a while. It came in little round discs about half an inch thick and about the size of an old *Britannia* penny.

cheers,
Toddy

Any of these bring back memories Toddy? :)
 
M

mrsfiremaker

Guest
Thanks Jodie!

If you translate the word pneumatic and congregated versions of the word into French and German and then google it in Yahoo! Germany and Yahoo! France, you get even more articles. And some pictures as well. I have read so many contradicting articles and it is through this I have seen the historic tug of war of primitive vs. modern fire lighting. Historically, we have become to see ourselves as almost a different species of human than that of our more tribal brothers. We wanted to civilize them with our technology and religion. It would be very difficult for people of that time to believe that we used primitive technology in everyday life. So everything read on fire pistons is to be read as speculation, looking for distinct references in each article. It is recorded that the diesel engine was invented after the inventor saw a fire piston that had been brought back from S.E. Asia. Other reports discount that information. Looking at the modern side of fire tool evolution, there are just well too many examples, too much documentation of fire pistons for it to be an unpopular short lived tool. I have always felt that they were invented earlier than many have believed. It is widely reported was that they were patented in 1807. My question have been How long were they around before that? When exactly did the discovery by air gun happen?

Tom, your article tells me two things. First, there is a source referenced, De Litteraria Espeditione per Pintificam Ditionem, a book written by Father Boscovich from Rome in 1755. 1755 may be the earliest recorded evidence of the fire piston, but it is recorded at this time. Second, this article is from the New York Times, proof that the fire piston was indeed in use in the United States. Though I have had no solid proof, I have believed they were because in 1947, Cache Lake Country book showed a diagram on how to make them, and a guy I know that is 74 years old knows of them. It was Mel Deweese who started the curiosity here in the late 70’s and the 80’s but I felt that his primitive fire piston was not the first ones on this land.

I have read the Balfour article in its entirety more than once but I think that many other clues are hidden in the articles that he read where he acquired his information. I will get a link to it for you. http://books.google.com/books?id=p9UKAAAAIAAJ&pg=RA1-PA19&dq=fire+piston#PRA2-PA18,M1 The article starts on page 17 Sketches start on page 51 And the contradiction that the fire piston was not a very popular tool. The fire piston “…appear to have some favor upon the continent, and to a lesser degree in England.” This leads me to believe that the fire piston did not originate in England and only arrived too late, when the match was being invented. They do anything to discredit the other countries and take the credit upon theirs though. A brass fire piston from Sweden was recorded to be on display in the Nordiska Museum in Stockholm while one is seen in Pennsylvania, US. (I forgot about this reference!)

This article was written in 1900 and stated that they were reintroduced in France in the recent years, in a pocket version. They are displayed at Ethnological Museum in Cambridge and Rome, the British Museum, Berlin, Liverpool, Horniman, Pitts-River Museum of Oxford.

FRENCH-INDO CHINA A fire-piston in the Edinburgh Museum was obtained from the Khas (or Kumuks), an aboriginal hill tribe of low status, inhabiting the country North of Luang Prabang, which lies on the Mekong River in Lat. 20 degrees North. ….Further to the South East, the implement is again met with amongst the Mois, a people of very low culture inhabiting the tablelands and mountains between the Mekong River and the coast of Annam, from the frontier of Yunnan to Cochin China. They differ radically from the Annamese and the Thai and are said by Deniker to belong probably to the ‘Indonesian’ stock.
They also say that there is no evidence that the Chinese even knew of the fire piston. The closest where the Siamese and the Burmese.

Another thing I find interesting is that there were very primitive fire pistons found amongst the Kachins. He continues to say that they were natural bamboo bores (not polished) and were unlikely to actually have any compression compared to the "packed fire piston." This is interesting because he may have been looking at one of the earliest fire pistons. Having been around fire pistons so much, I think I understand this. The gasket used would have been able to provide the seal anyhow. Darrel and Jeff make two very different fire pistons. Darrel goes for a close fitting bore, where the rod slides slowly down the bore with a gasket that is just barely proud of the rod and aids in providing a seal. Jeff’s rods are looser in his bore, the string gasket is thicker to make up the difference, providing the majority of the seal. The theory here is that the gasket will provide all the seal needed and be more flexible in adjusting to variations in the bore to maintain that compression. Darrel does not have the variations so for him, this is not necessary. In theory, if you look at the primitive loose piston and the more precise piston, both were used primitively, though later the tighter piston was preferred because of higher reliability. I have seen a rod very loose in a bore work, though not as consistently, with a thick gasket.

If you are looking for the pictures at the end, they start on page 51. Then there is a blank page and page i starts. Total, there are 4 pages of pictures so keep on scrolling down.

Becky
 

Galemys

Settler
Dec 13, 2004
730
42
53
Zaandam, the Netherlands
I guess fire pistons were known in the scientific world in the United States quite early after the european invention.
For the Southeast asian fire pistons I can´t find an earlier date than 1865. The ones in Dutch ethnological museum collections are mostly from Indonesia and are rarely dated.
I am still hoping that there are reports of such a curious way of firestarting witnessed by early travellers in the region (Dutch, Spanish, Portugese maybe even Chinese).

Tom
 

Galemys

Settler
Dec 13, 2004
730
42
53
Zaandam, the Netherlands
Hi all,

This is from a French site and they claim that the European fire piston was invented simultaneously in France and England at the beginning of the 19th century (and patented in France in 1807).

They claim they made themselves a traditional fire piston from bamboo (inner diameter 9 mm, length bigger than 8 cm with a (wooden?) piston wound with silk or cotton thread and some grease:

http://www.pourlascience.com/php/pls/article_integral.php?idn3=2382

Cheers,

Tom
 
M

mrsfiremaker

Guest
I thought you all might be interested in seeing what I found on eBay today. There is an original 1900’s nickel plated fire piston from France. There may be some useful information in the listing.

Here is the link.

http://cgi.ebay.com/VERY-RARE-POCKE...ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem:You_Rock_


Tom,

From what I gather from all the reports I have read is the history goes somewhat as follows.

When fire by compression was first discovered, it was simply noted that the phenomenon deserved further investigation but it was not pursued. It was mentioned again, and again it wasn’t awesome enough for the big important scientists. Air guns had been around for awhile now and it was more like a kid discovering how to whistle. The big guys were making much bigger things and could not see a need for the information.

Finally a higher regarded scientist from England made it a big deal about it and people listened. Now everyone was inspired to make their little piece of knowledge into something practical and the race for the patents began. The first actual patents in France and England were very close together. Since there is little in the way of easy to find information about what happened before that, records were written noting the most important people who gladly took all the credit. As time went on, this information continues to be quoted. While the years that they were patented are correct, or very close, from article to article, when they were actually invented in Europe has been lost in records elsewhere. I don’t have access to the old books written in the other languages, and because I am not fluent, I don’t know exactly what to look for anyhow. I think that a key may be held in a museum somewhere in Europe, but that’s a lot of land to cover and a mite easier to gain access to than the books. Im not giving up though.

Im going to contact the eBay seller tomarrow and ask them if they have anymore information that could provide more leads.

For now,
Becky
 

Galemys

Settler
Dec 13, 2004
730
42
53
Zaandam, the Netherlands

H Becky,

the french piston in your link looks remarably like the one in the following link about an exposition of firemaking articles:
http://www.nice.fr/ressources/dossier_presse_mail.pdf
The fire piston is on page 2 (small picture).
I'd love to go there but Nice is in the south of france and not exactly in my neighbourhood...
I've contacted one of the scientists (Paul Boutie) involved about the history of fire pistons but have had no reply yet.

Tom
 
M

mrsfiremaker

Guest
I just recieved a reply from the guy on ebay. They did not have any new information but said that they would be interested in getting information from others interested. I sent them the link to this thread.

I cant wait to hear more from the scientist. Thanks Tom!

Becky
 
M

mrsfiremaker

Guest
Have you still not heard from the scientists?

Im stilling digging around but dont have anything more interesting yet.

Becky
 

Galemys

Settler
Dec 13, 2004
730
42
53
Zaandam, the Netherlands
Still waiting for a reply

One of the Paleoplanet members was so kind to sent me the full Balfour article and also a fire piston article by Richard Jamison (from the Woodsmoke book), nice reading!

Cheers,
Tom
 
M

mrsfiremaker

Guest
The Balfour article is a long read but well worth the information. I tried to contact Richard sometime ago through a friend who is friends with him to find out if he had more information but I guess he didnt. His credibility was questioned by another fire piston maker, as anyone who has tried to do any publications on fire pistons has had to face, so I can understand him not wanting to talk to us.

The only thing I have been able to do lately is prove that the fire piston was alive and well in the United States. They were sold through the Pikes Catalogue, which was made in New York, in 1856. http://physics.kenyon.edu/EarlyApparatus/Thermodynamics/Fire_Syringe/Fire_Syring.html The guy moved from England in 1798 to New York so I wonder where he first saw a fire piston. http://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/surveying/maker.cfm?makerid=22 I guess the important bit is that they were sold in the United States, which does make them period accurate for reenactments here. There has been debate, but I guess I havent proved them to be pre 1840 yet... :)

Becky
 

Galemys

Settler
Dec 13, 2004
730
42
53
Zaandam, the Netherlands
No reply from the French scientists.
I am wondering if the E-mail adresses are correct I have send the same e-mail with some questions about the history of the fire piston (and a request for information about the 'bamboo-spark"-method) to the 'normal' museum contact adress now so I'll see if that yields anything.

Cheers,
Tom

PS Nice Wikipedia article about the fire piston!
 

Galemys

Settler
Dec 13, 2004
730
42
53
Zaandam, the Netherlands
what is this "bamboo spark" method?

You´ll have to got to the expo at the museum in Southern France to find out BOD:nana: ... They probably call it ´bambou percussion´ or something like that.

I am hoping that the people of the exhibition have some more information or even video fragments of the bamboo-spark-method but they are not in a hurry to answer my E-mails.

Cheers,

Tom

PS I showed the sparking temiang bamboo at the Dutch bushcraftweekend and a few others tried as well but still no fire out of the sparks.
 

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