EBBELSEN Trek MKII field jacket/coat - any views?

[Joshman]

It is ideal, as you say, as a functional cotton field jacket whether in “car parks” or on safari in Africa (hot in the day and cold at night). This forum illustrates beautifully why they chose to use the Duuton3 label on their garments (and not Ventile) precisely to avoid the bushcraft ferternity comparing it to other Ventile products and repositioning the garment against its will (and judging it disparagingly not appreciating what it’s for). It is not a bushcraft product. It is not waterproof. It does not claim or aim to be suitable for bushcraft and their realism in their email reply is admirable. I have never found a better quality field jacket, and adventure travel jacket. It is truely brilliant. But I won’t be building bivouacs or smoking fish in the woods in it.

PS, Ventile has been around for decades/generations? Since WW2. I’ve had a Ventile jacket since 1983.

 

[Joshman]

So, ideal for when you are hunting for your CR-V in some distant, very rainy corner of the Tesco carpark ... but maybe a bit dressy

The bit about 'improved wet weather protection' is interesting. Ventile cloth comes with a water repelling finish – (depending on the manufacturer, I suppose) – which you are expected to top up periodically. I am fine with this, the fabric being quite windproof, very comfortable and quiet and generally ideal for certain weather. But, that isn't exactly what all the hoo-hah suggested a decade back when the stuff appeared on the market.

There is only one manufacturer of “Ventile”: stotz in Switzerland. They have been the only producer since the mid-1990s.

 

[Billy-o]

It is funny stuff Ventile, in its capacity to cause enormous conniptions. But, joshman, I think I am missing your point.

 

[Joshman]

It is funny stuff Ventile, in its capacity to cause enormous conniptions. But, joshman, I think I am missing your point.

Exactly.

Cynicism such as “CR-V in some distant, very rainy corner of the Tesco carpark” is misplaced if you don’t appreciate what the product is actually intended for. Anything that does not fit your personal requirements for “bushcraft” is not automatically an inferior product. It does not wish to have anything to do with “bushcraft” and is a serious adventure travel product - ironically much more technical and serious than anything else in its chosen field.

Also, Ventile is not a new fabric as you imply, it’s been made and used for generations.

Happy bushcrafting!

 

[Tiley]

Ere tiley, while we are talking outerwear...did you ever do a write up on that loden coat you got a year or so ago?

I'm sorry to say that I didn't and haven't. Bizarre though it may seem after the winter we've just enjoyed, I didn't actually use it that much and feel that, if I'm to give an honest, as far as possible objective opinion about it, I need to spend some more time in it, in the woods and at large more generally. That said, on the couple of occasions when it did get an outing - in the snow and strong winds after Christmas - it was brilliant, protecting me from all the elements and keeping me warm but never hot. So, I'm afraid we can only hope for a similarly cold winter late on this year. If it turns out like that, I'll make a point of given the Loden a full-on trial and let you know how I get on.

I remain intrigued by this discussion on the Ebbelsen jacket and, in particular, joshman's almost evangelical defence of it. As far as I can judge, the initial post was merely an open enquiry about the jacket, asking for reviews and information about its suitability for bushcraft, something to which the manufacturers responded honestly. I liked the look of it but, sadly, have too many blasted coats to merit the price of another one; however, its certainly a brand, even a model, I'll keep my eye on in the future.

 

[Billy-o]

.
Happy bushcrafting!

Ow, joshman, that was really hurtful ... my wife drives a CR-V, and doesn't do so cynically, or even ironically. Maybe sarcastically at times. Perhaps that's what you meant.

I have some ventile, double and single layer things, had them for a while, you know, and was as surprised to hear, as you say, that the material comes from just one manufacturer in Switzerland, as I was to find that ventile comes ready supplied with a DWR. I thought that a bit, not exactly misleading, just not quite sining in tune with the narrative of the fabric fibres swelling up. But that's OK

This trekking jacket we are talking about here, it is made of both ventile and duuton3 according to the advertizing. It isn't clear which bits are ventile and which duuton3. The company seems happy enough for the ambiguity to just hang there.

Both fabrics are made by stotz, is that right? Duuton3 has a DWR added to it (at manufacture too, by the sound of it.) Ebblesen seem to be a bit reticent about what it is. Maybe they worry about confusing us. I wondered if you knew if it is that permanent CURB stuff that Sciessent make or if it something else. And if so, what, and how it is different to the DWR on the ventile, and does it need to be renewed, and if so how, and where does one get it from, what's it called commercially, and if one doesn't need the original compound would Nikwax do the job (in the way that other ventile clothiers say it does).

 

[Joshman]

I'm sorry to say that I didn't and haven't. Bizarre though it may seem after the winter we've just enjoyed, I didn't actually use it that much and feel that, if I'm to give an honest, as far as possible objective opinion about it, I need to spend some more time in it, in the woods and at large more generally. That said, on the couple of occasions when it did get an outing - in the snow and strong winds after Christmas - it was brilliant, protecting me from all the elements and keeping me warm but never hot. So, I'm afraid we can only hope for a similarly cold winter late on this year. If it turns out like that, I'll make a point of given the Loden a full-on trial and let you know how I get on.

I remain intrigued by this discussion on the Ebbelsen jacket and, in particular, joshman's almost evangelical defence of it. As far as I can judge, the initial post was merely an open enquiry about the jacket, asking for reviews and information about its suitability for bushcraft, something to which the manufacturers responded honestly. I liked the look of it but, sadly, have too many blasted coats to merit the price of another one; however, its certainly a brand, even a model, I'll keep my eye on in the future.

The opening enquiry invited reviews but then casted aspersions (and somewhat derogatory statements) about something they - self evidently - didn’t know about. Hopefully the enquiry has now been enlightened and corrected. If you’re intrigued then perhaps it’s simply cultural on these threads to be cynical about anything which isn’t suited to bushcraft or has a website that doesn’t look like it was made in 1998?

 

[Joshman]

Ow, joshman, that was really hurtful ... my wife drives a CR-V, and doesn't do so cynically, or even ironically. Maybe sarcastically at times. Perhaps that's what you meant.

I have some ventile, double and single layer things, had them for a while, you know, and was as surprised to hear, as you say, that the material comes from just one manufacturer in Switzerland, as I was to find that ventile comes ready supplied with a DWR. I thought that a bit, not exactly misleading, just not quite sining in tune with the narrative of the fabric fibres swelling up. But that's OK

This trekking jacket we are talking about here, it is made of both ventile and duuton3 according to the advertizing. It isn't clear which bits are ventile and which duuton3. The company seems happy enough for the ambiguity to just hang there.

Both fabrics are made by stotz, is that right? Duuton3 has a DWR added to it (at manufacture too, by the sound of it.) Ebblesen seem to be a bit reticent about what it is. Maybe they worry about confusing us. I wondered if you knew if it is that permanent CURB stuff that Sciessent make or if it something else. And if so, what, and how it is different to the DWR on the ventile, and does it need to be renewed, and if so how, and where does one get it from, what's it called commercially, and if one doesn't need the original compound would Nikwax do the job (in the way that other ventile clothiers say it does).

On their website they say “ Duuton3 (aka ventile) “. How on earth have you got it into your head that they are different and that the jacket is made in parts from two different fabrics? Their site is very clear? Im not sure what is confusing about a manufacturer making a fabric called etaproof but then different distributors rebranding it (as ventile for example). Check out the Ventile wikipedia page and duuton.com for more info. DWR is traditionally just silicon sprayed onto any number of outdoor fabrics. Arguably it helps light rain roll off whether goretex or ventile and has also been around for over 70yrs. New environmentlly friendly versions are now being introduced. The internet spells all this out (and forums like these always only ever seem to be breeding grounds for paraphrasing and misrepresenting).

 

[Tiley]

The opening enquiry invited reviews but then casted aspersions (and somewhat derogatory statements) about something they - self evidently - didn’t know about. Hopefully the enquiry has now been enlightened and corrected. If you’re intrigued then perhaps it’s simply cultural on these threads to be cynical about anything which isn’t suited to bushcraft or has a website that doesn’t look like it was made in 1998?

I suggest you re-read the original post. There is nothing 'derogatory' in the initial enquiry, nor did he cast any aspersions. He was, perhaps, a little confused by the website and it was perfectly true that there were no 'action pictures' of the jacket and specifically the hood, 'in the field', so, arguably, it was difficult to judge the size, shape and suitability of the hood for his purposes.

In many ways, the original poster was complimentary about the jacket, praising it for its less military appearance and seeing many positive things in its cut and design. His wording may have expressed caution - after all, although £250 for a double Ventile jacket is great value when compared with others, it is still £250 and so quite a sizeable investment but I'm not sure that terms such as 'derogatory' or 'casting aspersions' are entirely correct. Perhaps it should be seen as a bloke interested in the jacket but wanting to be sure before he presses the 'add to cart' button and part with his hard-earned cash; after all, he did only ask for reviews and opinions on the garment in question to inform his judgement and decision.

I would imagine that any subsequent comments in the thread were written tongue in cheek and should be taken as such.

 

[sunndog]

I'm sorry to say that I didn't and haven't. Bizarre though it may seem after the winter we've just enjoyed, I didn't actually use it that much and feel that, if I'm to give an honest, as far as possible objective opinion about it, I need to spend some more time in it, in the woods and at large more generally. That said, on the couple of occasions when it did get an outing - in the snow and strong winds after Christmas - it was brilliant, protecting me from all the elements and keeping me warm but never hot. So, I'm afraid we can only hope for a similarly cold winter late on this year. If it turns out like that, I'll make a point of given the Loden a full-on trial and let you know how I get on.

I remain intrigued by this discussion on the Ebbelsen jacket and, in particular, joshman's almost evangelical defence of it. As far as I can judge, the initial post was merely an open enquiry about the jacket, asking for reviews and information about its suitability for bushcraft, something to which the manufacturers responded honestly. I liked the look of it but, sadly, have too many blasted coats to merit the price of another one; however, its certainly a brand, even a model, I'll keep my eye on in the future.

Thanks for the reply fella
I look forward to your views if and when they appear.
Its a nice looking coat and i am tempted but like you i have so many already i'll probably never get one lol

 

[Billy-o]

Ah! I think what was making me dizzy was this line from one of their webpages - "At ebbelsen® we use two complete separate layers of Duuton®3 /Ventile® in our jackets".The bolding is in the original. It is a bit ambiguously worded, but elsewhere is says the jacket is completely made of Duuton3 (and Cordura, of course).

I wrote them to find out more about the DWR and its maintenance.

This jacket looks (a lot) like a Fjallraven Montt trekking jacket which has 2-way access to the hip pockets ... It'd be interesting to find out if this one is the same. Very handy (handy ). When I bought mine years ago, there was also a version with a Hydratic liner ... which I think is a waterproof zip-in. For a while I thought it was just a wicking fleece. It looks like you can still get it.

 

[Joshman]

I suggest you re-read the original post. There is nothing 'derogatory' in the initial enquiry, nor did he cast any aspersions. He was, perhaps, a little confused by the website and it was perfectly true that there were no 'action pictures' of the jacket and specifically the hood, 'in the field', so, arguably, it was difficult to judge the size, shape and suitability of the hood for his purposes.

In many ways, the original poster was complimentary about the jacket, praising it for its less military appearance and seeing many positive things in its cut and design. His wording may have expressed caution - after all, although £250 for a double Ventile jacket is great value when compared with others, it is still £250 and so quite a sizeable investment but I'm not sure that terms such as 'derogatory' or 'casting aspersions' are entirely correct. Perhaps it should be seen as a bloke interested in the jacket but wanting to be sure before he presses the 'add to cart' button and part with his hard-earned cash; after all, he did only ask for reviews and opinions on the garment in question to inform his judgement and decision.

I would imagine that any subsequent comments in the thread were written tongue in cheek and should be taken as such.

I suggest you re-read it. And there are no “compliments”. Your imagination is irrelevant.

 

[Joshman]

Ah! I think what was making me dizzy was this line from one of their webpages - "At ebbelsen® we use two complete separate layers of Duuton®3 /Ventile® in our jackets".The bolding is in the original. It is a bit ambiguously worded, but elsewhere is says the jacket is completely made of Duuton3 (and Cordura, of course).

I wrote them to find out more about the DWR and its maintenance.

This jacket looks (a lot) like a Fjallraven Montt trekking jacket which has 2-way access to the hip pockets ... It'd be interesting to find out if this one is the same. Very handy (handy ). When I bought mine years ago, there was also a version with a Hydratic liner ... which I think is a waterproof zip-in. For a while I thought it was just a wicking fleece. It looks like you can still get it.

Nothing “ambiguous”? They spell everything out several times including an entire page dedicated to the Materials used. Now for another discussion about DWR, which has surely been done to death over the years. I’m never sure why people are so fascinated by this? Still, hope you get what you’re after. All the best.

 

[Nomad64]

What an intriguing thread!

Hi Rob

I’ve signed up to reply (as I got an alert).

I’ve had my ebbelsen for two months and have bought a second (to sit in storage), my brother has now purchased one and a colleague at work has now purchased one and we are all very happy with our jackets!

....

You say their website is poor. What? I’ve never ever seen so much detail about one jacket before? Their site blew me away and is what clinched the deal!

With your observations I think you’re more of a Hilltrek customer and I know they make very good Ventile cags in blue. Otherwise I recommend you recognise the ebbelsen jacket for the exceptional bit of kit that it is and it’s truely unbeatable price.

Before you ask - no I do not work for ebbelsen. I just think my jacket is excellent! £250? Jeeze, get on it!

Welcome to the forum Joshman.

It is not unusual for people to join this forum and others solely to publicise a grievance they have against a particular manufacturer or retailer but less common for people unconnected with a product to sign up an be so evangelical both about a product and it’s website.

You have made it clear that you do not work for Ebbelsen but perhaps in the interests of full disclosure, you could confirm that neither you or any of your family, friends etc. have any association with Ebbelsen, their distributors, website designers (you appear even more passionate (if that were possible) in the Ebbelsen website than their jackets!), etc. and that you and all the other happy Ebbelsen customers you refer to paid full price for their jackets and have not been incentivised in any way to promote the product.

I ask this, not just because of your remarkable insight into Ebbelsen’s design and marketing strategy and obvious enthusiasm for the jacket (I pride myself on being an early riser this time of the year but your first couple of Ebbelsen related posts of the day were made well before 6 am this morning) but because you mention receiving an “alert”. I have bought many jackets over the years from many different manufacturers and through many different outlets but have never received an “alert”, informing me that someone, somewhere on the interweb was discussing the jacket that I had bought and suggesting that I join the discussion.

Perhaps you could explain how this works and whether there is any money to be made this way, although, I suspect that the online, viral marketing budgets of the local agricultural merchants, army surplus and charity shops (where I get most of my daily workwear these days), will not be great!

Personally, unless I’d given a piece of kit or clothing a really thorough long term workout, I’d hesitate before extolling it’s virtues and suitability for long term useage to random strangers. I have to say that I am still confused as to what the target market and intended use of this jacket is - I fear it is a bit like a RR Evoque - on paper, capable of great things off-road in the wilderness but in practice, more of an aspirational purchase for those who like the idea of the great outdoors more than the reality. Perhaps you could allay my concerns by giving an idea of the thorough workout you have given this remarkable jacket.

So, ideal for when you are hunting for your CR-V in some distant, very rainy corner of the Tesco carpark ... but maybe a bit dressy.

https://outdoorsmagic.com/reviews/ebbelsen-trek-mkii-jacket-preview/

According to this sponsored advertorial on Outdoors Magic, Ebbelsen were previously pitching this jacket at the £600 price point which is definitely more Evoque and Waitrose territory!

Maybe if the trajectory of the price of this jacket continues till it reaches the scruffy Defender in Aldi car park zone, I might be tempted!

 

[Tiley]

I suggest you re-read it. And there are no “compliments”. Your imagination is irrelevant.

I have endeavoured to be reasonable in pointing out things that are blatantly obvious to anyone who might choose to read the original post and yet you still insist on taking a rather myopic - and now, personally offensive - line. Given that, my imagination is as irrelevant as your invective.

I suggest you think a little more carefully before you put finger to keyboard and consider the broad semantic field that words like 'complimentary', among others that you use, can occupy. Sadly, the strength of your expressed opinions devalues the points you endeavour to make.

 

[Joshman]

I have endeavoured to be reasonable in pointing out things that are blatantly obvious to anyone who might choose to read the original post and yet you still insist on taking a rather myopic - and now, personally offensive - line. Given that, my imagination is as irrelevant as your invective.

I suggest you think a little more carefully before you put finger to keyboard and consider the broad semantic field that words like 'complimentary', among others that you use, can occupy. Sadly, the strength of your expressed opinions devalues the points you endeavour to make.

Best wishes with beard growing and skinning rabbits.

 

[Joshman]

What an intriguing thread!



Welcome to the forum Joshman.

It is not unusual for people to join this forum and others solely to publicise a grievance they have against a particular manufacturer or retailer but less common for people unconnected with a product to sign up an be so evangelical both about a product and it’s website.

You have made it clear that you do not work for Ebbelsen but perhaps in the interests of full disclosure, you could confirm that neither you or any of your family, friends etc. have any association with Ebbelsen, their distributors, website designers (you appear even more passionate (if that were possible) in the Ebbelsen website than their jackets!), etc. and that you and all the other happy Ebbelsen customers you refer to paid full price for their jackets and have not been incentivised in any way to promote the product.

I ask this, not just because of your remarkable insight into Ebbelsen’s design and marketing strategy and obvious enthusiasm for the jacket (I pride myself on being an early riser this time of the year but your first couple of Ebbelsen related posts of the day were made well before 6 am this morning) but because you mention receiving an “alert”. I have bought many jackets over the years from many different manufacturers and through many different outlets but have never received an “alert”, informing me that someone, somewhere on the interweb was discussing the jacket that I had bought and suggesting that I join the discussion.

Perhaps you could explain how this works and whether there is any money to be made this way, although, I suspect that the online, viral marketing budgets of the local agricultural merchants, army surplus and charity shops (where I get most of my daily workwear these days), will not be great!

Personally, unless I’d given a piece of kit or clothing a really thorough long term workout, I’d hesitate before extolling it’s virtues and suitability for long term useage to random strangers. I have to say that I am still confused as to what the target market and intended use of this jacket is - I fear it is a bit like a RR Evoque - on paper, capable of great things off-road in the wilderness but in practice, more of an aspirational purchase for those who like the idea of the great outdoors more than the reality. Perhaps you could allay my concerns by giving an idea of the thorough workout you have given this remarkable jacket.



https://outdoorsmagic.com/reviews/ebbelsen-trek-mkii-jacket-preview/

According to this sponsored advertorial on Outdoors Magic, Ebbelsen were previously pitching this jacket at the £600 price point which is definitely more Evoque and Waitrose territory!

Maybe if the trajectory of the price of this jacket continues till it reaches the scruffy Defender in Aldi car park zone, I might be tempted!

I’m honoured that you have written an essay about me. Either you or I must be very special? Through business I met someone last year who had done a freelance job for the company which is how I first learned about these excellent products. It’s always been great to discover companies making really great kit as there is so much dross around. My alert did not invite me to join a discussion as you assume (?) and you won’t receive any if you don’t create them? My alerts bring to my attention brands I like which may or may not be in an online sale (+ news, etc). Welcome to the 20th century! Oh and yes I’m absolutely being paid to go onto forums and tell them NOT to buy products(?!). You question what time I got up today? OMG I can’t stop laughing. Some people do sometimes get up early you know? What’s your thoughts on NASA really landing on the moon and who do you think shot JFK? Evidently you are still confused and you evidently will remain so no matter how helpful people are. Your comments illustrate my point beautifully: “aspirational”. Thank you. Outdoor magic have made a typo on the price refering to a different model. It’s so sad, forums like these should be full of people exchanging decent information not bit**ing about products they personally don’t like the look of, don’t own or have never used or even seen in the flesh. Speculation from random readers is little help. Have a great time in the woods.

 

[sunndog]

Jaw......dropped!

 

[Billy-o]

Had a little to and fro with Ebbelsen, who adopt a more sympathetic tone with enquiries from the hard of thinking

Nikwax Cotton Proof and similar products from Grangers and Storm can be used to maintain/replenish the DWR on the jacket's fabric, though a warm ironing or a few minutes in the tumble dryer set on low will reactivate it in the same way as with GoreTex. So, I am not sure what the bit about the special finish in their advertising means, but it doesn't seem to be one of the newer, antibacterial, non-fluoro, anti-odour, permanent finishes that people like Arcteryx are using, for instance

Handwash in something gentle when really necessary, otherwise go easy. The colour fades - not always unattractively, but there you are.

Duuton3 is Ventile. It is, they say, the same stuff rebranded, which, for me at least, clarifies things no end and rids us of all confusions. My guess is that the DWR is proprietorial. Not new or in need of special explantion, but different enough to justify the renaming.

So,with that in mind, I have a couple of double-layer ventile jackets. One has a very effective DWR on it (because it is newish) and it'll take a good 45 minutes to an hour in moderate to heavy rain before letting you know. Less in a real northwest downpour, but the only thing I have that'll resist that kind of rainy onslaught for any length of time without steaming up completely s an Arcteryx Alpha SV. I wouldn't use it at all in wet snow.

The other double-layer ventile I have doesn't perform anything vauely like as well, but that one has been washed a couple of times since I got it in 2006 (I think) - long before I discovered that ventile had a DWR at all. So, in the autumn, that'll go in with everything else that needs reproofing. Hopefully with a good outcome.

It is nice stuff the double-layer ventile. Good for walking in cool weather, spring skiing/shoeing, even cycling, that sort of thing, and of course it is comfortable and quiet. I could imagine belaying in it, but there's the friction to consider.

I have some minor reservations. Actually, these are more just characterisations. First, a double-layer jacket is quite warm and you'd want to factor that into any layering methodology you adhere to. It isn't a shell in the way a single-layer ventile jacket is, or a nylon windshirt or GoreTex. Also, It isn't all that light. It feels like a coat ... very like an M65, in fact. Whilst breathable, it isn't so in the way that Fjallraven's G1000 is. Also unlike G1000, at least its heavier variation, it is quite fragile and doesn't much like abrasion. So, cordura or leather cuffs are a good idea, and elbow pads.

I don't much like the tailoring or colour options of this particular jacket. Too middle-aged looking. And being middle-aged myself, I prefer to dress more like a spring chicken. But, I'll be keeping an eye out for whatever else Ebbelsen come up with in the future.

 

[Joshman]

Had a little to and fro with Ebbelsen, who adopt a more sympathetic tone with enquiries from the hard of thinking

Nikwax Cotton Proof and similar products from Grangers and Storm can be used to maintain/replenish the DWR on the jacket's fabric, though a warm ironing or a few minutes in the tumble dryer set on low will reactivate it in the same way as with GoreTex. So, I am not sure what the bit about the special finish in their advertising means, but it doesn't seem to be one of the newer, antibacterial, non-fluoro, anti-odour, permanent finishes that people like Arcteryx are using, for instance

Handwash in something gentle when really necessary, otherwise go easy. The colour fades - not always unattractively, but there you are.

Duuton3 is Ventile. It is, they say, the same stuff rebranded, which, for me at least, clarifies things no end and rids us of all confusions. My guess is that the DWR is proprietorial. Not new or in need of special explantion, but different enough to justify the renaming.

So,with that in mind, I have a couple of double-layer ventile jackets. One has a very effective DWR on it (because it is newish) and it'll take a good 45 minutes to an hour in moderate to heavy rain before letting you know. Less in a real northwest downpour, but the only thing I have that'll resist that kind of rainy onslaught for any length of time without steaming up completely s an Arcteryx Alpha SV. I wouldn't use it at all in wet snow.

The other double-layer ventile I have doesn't perform anything vauely like as well, but that one has been washed a couple of times since I got it in 2006 (I think) - long before I discovered that ventile had a DWR at all. So, in the autumn, that'll go in with everything else that needs reproofing. Hopefully with a good outcome.

It is nice stuff the double-layer ventile. Good for walking in cool weather, spring skiing/shoeing, even cycling, that sort of thing, and of course it is comfortable and quiet. I could imagine belaying in it, but there's the friction to consider.

I have some minor reservations. Actually, these are more just characterisations. First, a double-layer jacket is quite warm and you'd want to factor that into any layering methodology you adhere to. It isn't a shell in the way a single-layer ventile jacket is, or a nylon windshirt or GoreTex. Also, It isn't all that light. It feels like a coat ... very like an M65, in fact. Whilst breathable, it isn't so in the way that Fjallraven's G1000 is. It is also quite fragile and doesn't much like abrasion. So, cordura or leather cuffs are a good idea, and elbow pads.

I don't much like the tailoring or colour options of this particular jacket. Too middle-aged looking. And being middle-aged myself, I prefer to dress more like a spring chicken. But, I'll be keeping an eye out for whatever else Ebbelsen come up with in the future.

I told you it was the same stuff, as does their own website and Wikipedia so I’m glad you’ve cleared up the confusion? But I guess it’s me who is hard of thinking? The care instructions sound exactly like those provided by duuton.com which I told you to look at. But I guess I’m hard of thinking? Your garments sound excellent. Hope you enjoy continuing using them.