You're really are pushing hard to have JD pay you a visit with his black mamba aren't you...
Decades of conservation destroyed in days. By...
- Thread starter JonathanD
- Start date
-
Hey Guest, Early bird pricing on the Summer Moot (29th July - 10th August) available until April 6th, we'd love you to come. PLEASE CLICK HERE to early bird price and get more information.
You're really are pushing hard to have JD pay you a visit with his black mamba aren't you...
JD Wrote 'Not only has the entire area been decimated, but when I arrrived buzzards and corvids were present and picking off any animals that hadn't been trapped underground by the bulldozers'.
I couldn't see any evidence of bulldozers, all the cuts looked like they had been done by handsaw (no chainsaw saw dust around the stumps) and there does seem to be a lot more Gorse in the surrounding area or has this also been cleared?.
I am trying to get a picture in my minds eye of what size area they have cleared.
I couldn't see any evidence of bulldozers, all the cuts looked like they had been done by handsaw (no chainsaw saw dust around the stumps) and there does seem to be a lot more Gorse in the surrounding area or has this also been cleared?.
I am trying to get a picture in my minds eye of what size area they have cleared.
On looking at the area since, it looks like the tracks are actually vehicle tracks and the tracks of the burner/skip and not a bulldozer, although one is parked not too far away. The surrounding gorse is being cleared too, but that is neither here or there as the hibernaculum wasn't amongst those segmented clumps, it was amongst the area now cleared. The area was about a third of a football pitch in size. Not huge by any means, but very important nontheless.
Thankyou for clearing that up (no pun intended), I see your from Stourton, is that Stourton, South Staffs. if so its on my doorstep
I always do find it funny that the world has been here for a heck of a lot longer than we have... Yet we have to interfere with everything as if without us it would just die.Or am I being naive here? Is it essential for us to interfere with nature for its survival?I often notice when you go to woodlands the amount of work they do to the trees there.... I the trees, plants, animals were just left alone would they get along just fine?Yet then I guess, after seeing that canadian goose story earlier.... maybe we should interfere?It's all too confusing!
The vast majority of the landscape in the UK is man made. There's nothing natural about a heath or a meadow. I think it's more about trying to preserve the status quo.
Tough call this as it's REALLY close to home for me and i'd be really interesting to hear/read the other side of the argument here.
It's a bit close to home for me as we've had personal experience of almost the exact same thing but from the other side of the fence so to speak.
So no disrespect to anyone but i do know from personal experience that things can sometimes get blown up out of proportion when people are emotionally involved and passionate about a subject.
In our case i cleared the area around our summer house, which is land we own, as we are not there every weekend we had no idea the outcry it had caused.
Apparently we had some snake or another living in that area and one of the locals (also a snake fan) were crying foul saying i'd destroyed their habitat etc.
From our side, this house burnt to the ground a few years back so clearing brush away before summer arrives is simply good housekeeping, due to the amount of forest fires we get here every summer.
Plus if i found a snake i'd relocated it a LONG way away from our house, if me Mother-in-law Mrs etc found one they'd kill it straight away.
So clearing the scrub from around the house in our opinion is by far the best option for the snakes and for us.
Listening to guy though you'd think i'd destroyed 1/2 of Greece and had endangered species hanging from our patio.
To try and get locals on his side he'd told them everything from, i was going to chainsaw ALL the trees down (my left arm is paralysed i'm not chainsawing anything), through to i'd been laying poison our to kill to local wildlife (we have kids and a dog so laying poison down would be monumentally stupid, plus we REALLY look after the local cats so the keep our area clear of rats and mice).
He even tried getting the cop involved at one stage, he'd exaggerated the clearing to epic proportions, so the cops came round thinking i was starting fires and killing all the local wildlife.
In the end the guy was given a warning about wasting police time.
We then had a series of vandalism around the property, one of which was someone cut through half the chain on the kids swing.
No doubt it was this guy, as the woman opposite saw him leaving out property with a saw in hand.
Crazy that this jerk would put the safety of kids over a few snakes being relocated, i did have a "chat" with the guy, he replaced the chain and we have had no trouble since.
Long winded sorry.
But i'm trying to say that if someone is emotionally involved in a area, species etc it is often difficult to understand ANY justification for clearing land, as I've personally experienced something very similar though i would prefer to hear both sides before jumping on the bandwagon.
I'm in no way saying the op is the same as the guy we dealt with or over exaggerating, BUT i would really like to hear/read the other parties justification and actions (maybe they relocated the snakes) before judging them.
Cheers
Mark
It's a bit close to home for me as we've had personal experience of almost the exact same thing but from the other side of the fence so to speak.
So no disrespect to anyone but i do know from personal experience that things can sometimes get blown up out of proportion when people are emotionally involved and passionate about a subject.
In our case i cleared the area around our summer house, which is land we own, as we are not there every weekend we had no idea the outcry it had caused.
Apparently we had some snake or another living in that area and one of the locals (also a snake fan) were crying foul saying i'd destroyed their habitat etc.
From our side, this house burnt to the ground a few years back so clearing brush away before summer arrives is simply good housekeeping, due to the amount of forest fires we get here every summer.
Plus if i found a snake i'd relocated it a LONG way away from our house, if me Mother-in-law Mrs etc found one they'd kill it straight away.
So clearing the scrub from around the house in our opinion is by far the best option for the snakes and for us.
Listening to guy though you'd think i'd destroyed 1/2 of Greece and had endangered species hanging from our patio.
To try and get locals on his side he'd told them everything from, i was going to chainsaw ALL the trees down (my left arm is paralysed i'm not chainsawing anything), through to i'd been laying poison our to kill to local wildlife (we have kids and a dog so laying poison down would be monumentally stupid, plus we REALLY look after the local cats so the keep our area clear of rats and mice).
He even tried getting the cop involved at one stage, he'd exaggerated the clearing to epic proportions, so the cops came round thinking i was starting fires and killing all the local wildlife.
In the end the guy was given a warning about wasting police time.
We then had a series of vandalism around the property, one of which was someone cut through half the chain on the kids swing.
No doubt it was this guy, as the woman opposite saw him leaving out property with a saw in hand.
Crazy that this jerk would put the safety of kids over a few snakes being relocated, i did have a "chat" with the guy, he replaced the chain and we have had no trouble since.
Long winded sorry.
But i'm trying to say that if someone is emotionally involved in a area, species etc it is often difficult to understand ANY justification for clearing land, as I've personally experienced something very similar though i would prefer to hear both sides before jumping on the bandwagon.
I'm in no way saying the op is the same as the guy we dealt with or over exaggerating, BUT i would really like to hear/read the other parties justification and actions (maybe they relocated the snakes) before judging them.
Cheers
Mark
The difference between your case and this one is very different. This clearance work was carried out by a conservation body aware of the importance of the area. Consultation and mitigation processes are supposed to be undertaken here before any work is carried out due to the site being a major stronghold for a protected species. The snakes weren't relocated, I would have been informed of any planned action like that. You can't relocate snakes that are deep underground and overwintering anyway. This particular site is well known nationally for its adder population, they are supposed to be protected here. You can also see the equipment that was in situ onsite that didn't belong to them that has been destroyed. There are others missing entirely and it seems they were 'binned' along with the bigger scrub.
Your guy also seems like a loony. I'm a scientist who is actually paid to study and consult on these areas to prevent things like this happening.
So far, the official line on this is an unfortunate mistake by the contractors/volunteers.
Your guy also seems like a loony. I'm a scientist who is actually paid to study and consult on these areas to prevent things like this happening.
So far, the official line on this is an unfortunate mistake by the contractors/volunteers.
Last edited:
So your not actually any good at preventing things like this happening JD? Even in your own back yard.
Ornithology is good, you'll get to meet some very pretty birds.
Last edited:
What a truly awful story Jonathan. Lets hope that this sad story can help educate people into the need for this type of habitat, and stop it from happening again.
My thoughts are with you mate, as I know how this must have affected you.
My thoughts are with you mate, as I know how this must have affected you.
It's still obvious that your very passionate about this area and snakes, that's an extremely good thing to the point where it's infectious even for those of us not really into snakes.
What i mean by that is, even though i have no interest in snakes i still look forward and am eager to read your posts on the matter as they are extremely educational and your eagerness and enthusiasm on the matter is a joy to read.
In the same light though it is extremely difficult for someone with such passion to see things in a cold detached way in my experience, you are obviously a million miles away from the guy we had problems with, but still i do not know you from Adam so i would be really interested to see the other parties side.
If they are saying it was a mistake then it really is a massive shame that wildlife has had to suffer for someone else's mistake.
I might be a bit nosey here, but has there been any indication as to if this was a management mistake or over eagerness with the people actually doing the hard work?
Just for my curiosity here, is it likely there are still snakes underground or did they simply dig too deep?
I got to wondering if a freedom of information request might bring to light any information about how this was authorised, what 'due diligence' was done, and who said 'go for it'. However, it seems that NT is not subject to FOI, though the organisation is listed at http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/body/national_trust . As a footnote the site says "The National Trust is not subject to FOI but it is included on account of the public functions it exercises in managing the Wey Navigation. As a Navigation Authority it is likely that the National Trust is subject to the Environmental Information Regulations 2004. and the Godalming Navigation"
If other channels aren't being forthcoming with information, might it be worth a shot?
If other channels aren't being forthcoming with information, might it be worth a shot?
Missed a but as away this weekend. Are the NT saying it was a mistake by the contractors? Isn't that like saying pilot error when the truth is not palatable (like the chinook incident)? Or is it likely to be true that contractors define the work they have to do for themselves? They probably see NT as a cash cow, if they do what is asked of them well they'd get more work but to define their own work I doubt somehow.
Err, well, hmmm. You have me there. And Emm wouldn't be happy with me perv... er.. watching other birds.
Unfortunately I'm quite good at the cold detached scientific bit. My report is exactly that. This post is my vent. I'm also not one to dwell on the past and it has happened so it is time for damage limitation and preserving what we have left and stop it happening in other areas. The other side only have one line and that is 'heathland management is ongoing to restore and maintain unique habitat'. Equipment has been destroyed that didn't belong to them, is there really any defence to that? It's quite clear to see in the pictures and the owners are far more furious than I am.
The snakes are trapped underground within the root systems and old rabbit warrens that weave through the roots, and that is the problem. Some of the individuals may be able to push out if the tunnels are sub surface and intact, but the majority have been flattened. The Slow-worms and legged lizards certainly have a better chance of doing this, but the adders not so much. Any kind of digging and rescue is pretty much unrealistic and may cause more damage than good if attempted. Time to let nature do its thing and see what transpires. I'm busy with other projects at the moment (ironically protecting a colony of vipers on a different continent), and it is in much better hands of people who can devote more time to it than I'm able to at the moment.
That sounds a bit like 'It's the computer's fault'
As I think someone has already indicated, it seems the NT needs tieing down with specific questions like:
- who gave the instructions to the contractors and voluteers
- what were those instructions?
- what was the basis for the instructions
- were they in writing
- who authorised them
- did what was done comply with NT Standing orders, financial regulations and internal procedure rules (whatever they are called at the NT) and the terms of the contract with the contractor
In short; just what did the NT do to provide adequate oversight of the contractors/volunteers?[/I]
Yes - agree with this summary, but in my experience you need to start with general questions and then ask very specific ones or people just waffle and you get nowhere
I think blaming contractors is easy to do and kind of a default defence for mistakes made by organisations like NT. I can't blame them for trying but it must be bloody obvious to them that it wouldn't cut it. I mean I'm guessing JD has made it clear he has personally had 25 years link to the site. That both his passion and that of other herpetologists for their subject (which lets face it is not the general public's favourite critters) would not allow them to be so easily fooled. Kind of insulting defence. You use subbies, you are responsible for subbies as much as if you were doing the work from within your organization. If they become too "enthusiastic" then it is you who has let that happen by (possibly with hindsight) a lack of precise instruction or control.
At work we used to use subcontractors to do certain work. However we had to be responsible for their output under our quality system. Even though NT is a charity it is required to have systems in place I believe under charity commission rules and no doubt other rules too. On top of that it will have a whole raft of internal rules and guidelines and regulations to follow that probably add up to a quality system like we have in manufacturing.
Anyway JD, I wish you luck with the overseas vipers and hope they fare better.
At work we used to use subcontractors to do certain work. However we had to be responsible for their output under our quality system. Even though NT is a charity it is required to have systems in place I believe under charity commission rules and no doubt other rules too. On top of that it will have a whole raft of internal rules and guidelines and regulations to follow that probably add up to a quality system like we have in manufacturing.
Anyway JD, I wish you luck with the overseas vipers and hope they fare better.
It's gone up again - another hectare destroyed yesterday.
http://www.dorsetwildlifetrust.org.uk/uptonfire2012
*Edit: DUH!!!! I've put this in the wrong thread.
**belms.
http://www.dorsetwildlifetrust.org.uk/uptonfire2012
*Edit: DUH!!!! I've put this in the wrong thread.
**belms.
Last edited:
Similar threads
