Decades of conservation destroyed in days. By...

[nodd]

I cain't speak for the UK environment but some plant species are fire dependent. Many of our pine species won't germinate unless activated by fire. But you're correct it can be devastating to invertabrates.

Hi Burning over here is mainly used on Heathland and heather as part of its management for grouse which like to feed on the young shoots. It has been used in the past on calcareous grassland aswell.

 

[JonathanD]

... and kills reptiles in their hundreds as they can't escape quickly enough. Perfect example of favouring one species over another.

 

[santaman2000]

... and kills reptiles in their hundreds as they can't escape quickly enough. Perfect example of favouring one species over another.

True if done improperly. Prescribed burns should (for best effect) only be done in a patchwork pattern. One patch that is burned this year should not be burned for another 5-7 years; and only one patch out of a number corresponding to the number of years between burning should be burned any given year. Thus always leaving an unburned refuge. The point in such an excercise being to try to imitate natural wildfires; at least that's the point among environmentalists who's goal is to restore natural environment. An agricultural goal is quite different and often much, much more detrimental to the natural specied for the benefit of "preferred" species.

 

[JonathanD]

True if done improperly. Prescribed burns should (for best effect) only be done in a patchwork pattern. One patch that is burned this year should not be burned for another 5-7 years; and only one patch out of a number corresponding to the number of years between burning should be burned any given year. Thus always leaving an unburned refuge. The point in such an excercise being to try to imitate natural wildfires; at least that's the point among environmentalists who's goal is to restore natural environment. An agricultural goal is quite different and often much, much more detrimental to the natural specied for the benefit of "preferred" species.

But heathland is not a natural environment in this country, and was established through grazing and deforestation. The native snakes and especially the adder (heavy bodied vipers), won't flee. They curl around the base of the heather and wait for the flames to pass. Unfortunately, many of them are unable to go deep enough to escape the heat. They aren't like mammals and birds that can take flight. They use their energy up in a burst of speed of only a few metres. So then they choose concealement over flight, and die because of it.

There was a big heath fire in Dorset last year, and it made the news about how many reptiles died in that fire. It was phenomenal. Plus after the fire has gone and those snakes sheltering successfully in rodent burrows emerge, they are picked off by predators as all of the natural cover has been burned away. Heathland is one of the best habitats we have for our native reptiles, but it is unnatural and manmade. Woodland glades and open forest areas were their natural habitat historically, but it has been destroyed almost entirely centuries ago. The heathland is now the main conservation area for our reptiles. But the things that maintain the unnatural landscape of a heathland, kills our snakes off en masse. It is a quandary for sure.

 

[nodd]

Heathland was produced by grazing and this is still the best way of maintaining it , for all flora and fauna concerned but it not a quick fix. Plus there is more cost involved compared o a land-rover full of volunteers with bow saws.

 

[santaman2000]

But heathland is not a natural environment in this country, and was established through grazing and deforestation. The native snakes and especially the adder (heavy bodied vipers), won't flee. They curl around the base of the heather and wait for the flames to pass. Unfortunately, many of them are unable to go deep enough to escape the heat. They aren't like mammals and birds that can take flight. They use their energy up in a burst of speed of only a few metres. So then they choose concealement over flight, and die because of it.

There was a big heath fire in Dorset last year, and it made the news about how many reptiles died in that fire. It was phenomenal. Plus after the fire has gone and those snakes sheltering successfully in rodent burrows emerge, they are picked off by predators as all of the natural cover has been burned away. Heathland is one of the best habitats we have for our native reptiles, but it is unnatural and manmade. Woodland glades and open forest areas were their natural habitat historically, but it has been destroyed almost entirely centuries ago. The heathland is now the main conservation area for our reptiles. But the things that maintain the unnatural landscape of a heathland, kills our snakes off en masse. It is a quandary for sure.

To be sure the UK environment is indeed a complex one. Man's influence upon it is so long standing that it would be impossible to disentagle man made from natural now. I wish you all the luck I can.

 

[BOD]

You do realise I handle venomous snakes daily. Black mambas fit really well through letterboxes.

If it was anyone else other than bushwhacker bob and some other established members I'd say be careful of remarks like that. There are enough loonies around who would report that as a threat.

OT but in my walks I find little interest in most mammals apart from the big charismatic ones. Most of the interesting sightings are snakes, reptiles, frogs and insects. It like scuba diving. The novices want dolphins and manta rays, the expereinced divers go muck diving or look for small stuff in the reef.

 

[Elines]

I can't be the only member of the National Trust on here - is there some kind of co-ordinated complaint/question that we as members of the NT can raise?

Perhaps something along the lines of:


"Over the past x years the snake habitat on the following NT sites:

• dfgdfd
• asdsadf
• asasdf

has been cleared with no apparent concern or thought for the destruction of a rare habitat, or its replacement.

It may be that in every case the NT went through due process and that these decisions were fully in accord with NT policies and strategy. But this is not at all obvious.

Could you please clarify the position?"


I don't know enough about the technical aspects to draft the best technical case so anyone please feel free to suggest improvements/fill the gaps/extend the point to include other species etc

As an NT member I would be more than happy to refer it through whatever are the formal NT channels to provide another source of information.



EDIT - there is a complaints procedure at:

http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/shop/products-we-recommend//view-page/item480939/

and it would be reasonable to use that as a part of any concerted effort

 

[bushwacker bob]

Maybe we should re-name the organisation the National not Trustworthy
Their complaints procedure is based on their SHOP.

As the reptiles in question are just Homeless and not dead, couldn't you relocate them?

 

[Rockmonkey]

I agree with Kepis and Bushwacker, I think there heart was in the right place, albeit a slight overkill. But as a tree surgeon myself, and seing the carefully undertaken work by "professionals" myself, they were either blind folded, or trying to see how badly they could do the job, or using day release kids from the nut house!!
If it had been one of the lads that work for me, they would have been fired!, Possibly hung,drawn, and quartered!
I try not to think about it, because it makes my blood boil and if it had have been me that saw the gorse cut down after 25 years of study of the adders etc, I think i would have cried, and then gone Charles Bronson on there bottom!!!

I feel for you

 

[CBJ]

Very sad news, sorry to hear this JD.

I hope that you get them sorted out over this.

All the best

Craig

 

[Elines]

Their complaints procedure is based on their SHOP.

Agreed - I couldn't find a better one and you have to start somewhere with a formal procedure, if only so that when it gets to the 'Today programme' John Humphries has some material to work with.

The 'shop' complaints procedure includes:

"What if the complaint is not resolved?

....................................................
If for any reason your complaint is still unresolved then please address your complaint to the Chairman. He will ensure that it is passed to an external adjudicator who will provide a final decision on the complaint.

The address to write to is:
The National Trust
Heelis
Kemble Drive
Swindon
SN2 2NA"

Even if this procedure isn't the corremt one to follow then trying to follow it would mean they had to tell you which one you should be using - part of any successful campaign may be about getting on the moral high ground.

 

[plastic-ninja]

I'm sure that most sensitive people share your pain Jonathan and also the sense of outrage that
a society which has a responsibility for preservation can be so arbitrary when it comes to the
various species with which we share the countryside.I love the gorse filled wild places where I wandered as a kid
in Cumbria but they have also been decimated and only seem to remain in any quantity on the gunnery ranges
used by the MOD near Warcop and near Richmond.
How good are reptiles at avoiding heavy ordnance?
Good luck at getting someone's testicles as a tobacco pouch for this!
Simon

 

[santaman2000]

Agreed - I couldn't find a better one and you have to start somewhere with a formal procedure, if only so that when it gets to the 'Today programme' John Humphries has some material to work with.

The 'shop' complaints procedure includes:

"What if the complaint is not resolved?

....................................................
If for any reason your complaint is still unresolved then please address your complaint to the Chairman. He will ensure that it is passed to an external adjudicator who will provide a final decision on the complaint.

The address to write to is:
The National Trust
Heelis
Kemble Drive
Swindon
SN2 2NA"

Even if this procedure isn't the corremt one to follow then trying to follow it would mean they had to tell you which one you should be using - part of any successful campaign may be about getting on the moral high ground.

So a civil lawsuit with punitive damages isn't an option?

 

[Elines]

So a civil lawsuit with punitive damages isn't an option?

Well - it is an option, but rather an expensive one. As someone had already indicated - in these situations the best strategy is most likely to get the press involved. The courts are also a risky way to do things, arithmetically, only 50% of lawyers are right.

And to get the press involved you need to have a good case which is not just the obvious justice of your case but also the fact that you have acted reasonably throughout - which includes following the 'official' procedures (whatever they are)

 

[Elines]

PS I am still prepared to raise it officially with the NT if someone is prepared to help with providng the raw information on similar cases on NT land

 

[JonathanD]

As the reptiles in question are just Homeless and not dead, couldn't you relocate them?

The vast majority would have been killed as the root structure collapsed under the heavy vehicles, or at least trapped. Same result. Those that made it out were being picked off by corvids and buzzards. No doubt more predators would be attracted and pick any stragglers surfacing over the coming days. So dead is right.

 

[andybysea]

Just seen this post,terrible thing to do.

 

[santaman2000]

Well - it is an option, but rather an expensive one. As someone had already indicated - in these situations the best strategy is most likely to get the press involved. The courts are also a risky way to do things, arithmetically, only 50% of lawyers are right.

And to get the press involved you need to have a good case which is not just the obvious justice of your case but also the fact that you have acted reasonably throughout - which includes following the 'official' procedures (whatever they are)

Fair enough. Although "expensive" was part of the point. At least if it could be made to be expensive to the offending party (I know that's not what you were referring too though) And preferabley any damages so awarded be used toward habitat restoration. etc. As you say though, it's a gamble at best.

 

[bushwacker bob]

The vast majority would have been killed as the root structure collapsed under the heavy vehicles, or at least trapped. Same result. Those that made it out were being picked off by corvids and buzzards. No doubt more predators would be attracted and pick any stragglers surfacing over the coming days. So dead is right.

Corvids an buzzards need to eat too. Ever thought of a career change? Ornithology is calling you.