Calibre Choice for Deer WARNING - GRAPHIC IMAGES

[FerlasDave]

Do you Shoot much?


Sam

I was a coach back in cadets teaching them how to shoot and how to look after the rifles etc but I have only just begun to get into hunting and are still learning about the things I was never taught.

Didnt want to cause an offence to anyone I just wanted to get my opinion (allbeit limited in my knowlage) across.

 

[320]

every government entity has its own take on what's legal and you pretty much have to work within their constraints.

for deer in my state the requirement (rifle) doesn't restrict caliber but requires 900 ft/lbs at 100 yards. not really very energy but it must be enough.

i've seen deer taken with 22lr and 458 win mag and everything in between. i agree with chinkapin, shot placement seems to be the most important factor.

i don't think the arguments over small and fast versus large and slow will ever be settled.

there are literally thousands of cartridges out there. just find one you like and can use, then use it.

i've never had enough money to own lots of rifles at a single point in time but i've owned lots of rifles. i've chased "perfection" around the hill until i just gave up.

personally i settled on several 22lr's, an old 30-30 winchester and a 375 h&h ruger no.1 (large and fast). they all do what they are supposed to and they are fun to shoot.

can't ask for more.

 

[rancid badger]

A No. 8 rifle, is designed for target shooting/basic marksmanship training.
And that's all.


http://www.rifleman.org.uk/Enfield_Rifle_No.8.html

R.B.

 

[UKdave]

Whilst it will certainly kill a deer (or even an elephant.lots of documentation to prove) it is certainly illegal to use a .22lr rf. But why would you want to?unless you are/were poaching?.

As regards to the 2nd paragraph i`m not sure what you are trying to say (Davey569)

 

[FerlasDave]

Whilst it will certainly kill a deer (or even an elephant.lots of documentation to prove) it is certainly illegal to use a .22lr rf. But why would you want to?unless you are/were poaching?.

As regards to the 2nd paragraph i`m not sure what you are trying to say (Davey569)

I dont poach nor do I condone it. Ive only recently got into the sport using air rifles Im just trying to learn about all this bullet talk and technical terms that I dont understand.

The second paragraph was just asking if wieght would be that important when the bullet is travelling so fast. Sorry, its harder to explain in text.

 

[Chinkapin]

Davey 569: Energy=1/2 X Mass X Velocity squared.

Energy (ft.lbs)=[(Velocity(ft.lbs))squared X weight (grains) /450240

choose a caliber that you are interested in that has a wide range of bullet weights available, then plug in the lightest and run it through the above formula. After you have arrived at an a figure, redo the formula with the heaviest bullet. Compare the two. you will see differences in the Energy produced by different bullet weights. Keep in mind that since Velocity is a major factor, a heavy bullet going slow might actually have less energy than a light bullet going fast. This is why it pays to investigate the ballistics of the ammunition that you are using.

All of this is complicated by the fact that even when the Energy delivered by a light bullet is equal to or exceeds a heavy bullet, real world experience seems to favor the heavy bullet as regards leathality. Also, as a general rule, heavy bullets will out penetrate lighter ones. Some experiments have actually shown that big heavy bullets traveling at moderate speeds will out penetrate the same big heavy bullet traveling at a faster speed.

Cael Nu Mara: Of course Americans can learn some things from the British. I think that is evidenced by our presence here. I for one have picked up many good tips on how to do or make things on this website. I don't think nationalism has any thing to do with it, just different ways of looking at things and different ways of doing things have evolved along somewhat different lines since we parted company after that unfortunate family argument.

 

[Cael Nu Mara]

I dont poach nor do I condone it.

I think you should check what yan saying before you post that kind of thing, itll get some people rilled up.

On a differnt note I am a fan (ish) of the american "style" of hunting,the way licensing works etc. I think it works brilliantly in some ways and badly in others, i dont understand the point of bow hunting, or some of the methods that certain hunters in the US use for intance, but I dont mind it.



Sam



Sa,

 

[Oblio13]

... (A .22) will certainly kill ... even an elephant.lots of documentation to prove...

Having killed an elephant (cull of a problem bull in a national park, the most exciting ten seconds of my life, and that includes crashing a jet and this blonde from Virginia), I'd have to see that to believe it. Unless they mean of infection three weeks later. I've heard that Peter Capstick claimed it. Never met him, but spent a lot of time in Zimbabwe and South Africa, in areas where he was known. Had a couple other professional hunters who noticed that I was reading one of his books tell me some unflattering stories, the upshot being that he's a BS artist.

No matter how you look at an elephant's brain, there's a LOT of bone to go through. There's not even a direct path through an eye socket. For most any other organ, penetration would have to be measured in FEET. People can walk around inside the rib cage of an elephant. It's hard to comprehend how big they are.

 

[elma]

that's too easy...

it don't work like that there is a minimum calibre from memory which is .243 but no upper limit in scotland. In england the minimum was .243 but now each region (county and police force) has it's own opinions as new rounds are much faster but each has it's own problems hence they now want everyone to to have DM certs and training. If you fall foul of the law then it's simple don't pass go, don't collect £200, it's go straight to jail. I think from memory and I could be wrong as I've forgotten more about firearm law than most will ever know about it.

In scotland it has to do with landowners rights, we test .50 up there and we make lots of noise and never have a problem. We tested a hand build rifle down south and got arrested.

it's genius...

I Think you got your firearms law a little mixed up here

There is no minimum calibre for scotland the firearms act /deer act say's for shooting any deer you must use a bullet of not less than 100grains with a muzzle velocity of no less than 2450 feet/second giving a muzzle energy of greater than1750foot,pounds,
these conditions must be met regardless of calibre, but does usually mean a rifle greater than .243
the only exception is Roe deer these can be shot using a bullet of more than 50grains with a muzzle energy of more than 1000foot,poundsand muzzle velocity of 2450ft/sec in effect you could use a 222 for roe I myself have used a 223 for roe in scotland.

The Act for England & Wales does specify a calibre of no less than .240 also it must generate a muzzle energy of greater than 1700foot pounds,
the only exception is for muntjac and chinese water deer which Have come in line with the rule for roe in scotland.
ther is NO upper limit on calibre for deer stalking on the mainland in the Uk, the police may wish to impose upon you a calibre restriction but like everything else with firearms it is up to you to show good reason for ownership and use

you say the police require you to have a Dm 1&2

this is again misleading there is no requirement within the Act nor in the guidance to FLO's for a stalker to have a DS1 or 2 but they will advise you to do it as it shows competance and again good reason

From LOIQ...An open license in parts of the country is actually very hard to get, for the simple reason they (the police) don't want to have any have go hero's wandering about letting rip with any sort of weapon. let alone one that can really do some damage.

An open licence is not hard to get at all if you have land over which to shoot and can prove to your FLO that you are safe, 90% of deer stalkers and fox shooters in the UK have open licenses as they can justify the need and since 2008 advice from theACPO( Association of chief police officers) any deer calibre rfle a stalker own's can be used for vermin control regardless of calibre.
as for shooting over land Iv'e never had a problem with the police, so long as I'm polite and go about my business within the law.

And to finish you can't shoot what the hell you like in scotland even if you have got the land owners permission unless you got a open ticket for the firearm you are using or you might find you will get arrested

I suggest you go to the BASC website and read the guidance notes to the FLO's

Ian

 

[dogwood]

Having killed an elephant (cull of a problem bull in a national park, the most exciting ten seconds of my life, and that includes crashing a jet and this blonde from Virginia), I'd have to see that to believe it.

Having seen the hide of an elephant, I would be surprised if a .22lr could pentrate more than a few inches after penetrating the hide.

I'm a huge fan of .22lr and I think it's one of the most misunderstood (and incredibly useful) calibers out there -- but there's a limit to anything

(On a side note, if you read Hemingway's essays, you'll find an interesting essay he wrote describing why he would never kill an elephant -- he thought it would be so intense it would spoil the taste of everything afterwards... and that blonde in Virginia was only 10 seconds? A pity that )

 

[Matt.S]

Its what we used to refer to them as back in cadets. They just fire a .22 round IMO wouldnt this be suitable for deer?

I dont understad why people weigh bullets and use a certain 'grain' bullet its still going to go faster than the speed of sound and go far and fast enough to take down a deer, that is if it is the correct callibre. (again IMHO) weight of a bullet wouldnt have that much affect on a rifle. you never see the brittish army measuring their bullets.

The army is a whole lot less interested in perfect, one-shot, immediate-death shots than it is about rounds on target, supressing fire and such. The army is interested in one particular 'prey', whereas a hunter might be going for a 200lb red stag on Monday, a 30lb munty on Tuesday and 200lb sika on Wednesday. Each time they will be trying to kill the deer as fast as possible with as little meat damage as possible, which makes for a lot of variables to consider.

The .223 Remington is the same as the 5.56x45mm NATO standard round -- used in AR15/M16/M4 series, AR18/SA80 series, FAMAS rifle, Steyr AUG and such. It is considered acceptable for small deer such as roe, Muntjac etc. The .308 Winchester is the same as the 7.62x51mm NATO round, as used in the L98 rifle, GPMG, SLR/FAL, G3 etc. Bear in mind that hunters use expanding ammunition which makes any particular round make a much bigger hole, but banned in warfare under the Hauge conventin for silly, political reasons.

As a rough guide a .308 rifle will develop around 2,600 foot-lb of energy at the muzzle, a .223 1,600, a .22LR somewhere between 100 and 200, and a legal-limit air-rifle no more than 12. Remember that these don't just refer to calibres but specific cartridges. Calibre is but one factor in the choice of suitable ammunition.

 

[elma]

I like those tables, and your right the data is not lost but the point is. If you rock up at a shoot with the wrong gun they won't let you shoot, it's that simple. If they let you shoot and something goes wrong the first thing you notice is how uncomfortable handcuffs are. Britain is very small in comparison, the people who shoot get issued different licenses Target = closed license, Section 1 Game = open licence

This again is misleading and wrong.

a section 1 licence covers both game and target in fact it covers all firearms and air rifles over 12ft/lb used in the Uk, with exception of prohibited firearms, (auto's etc) which are covered by section5 or antiques covered by section 58.
shotguns are covered by section 2

as I said section 1 certificate covers most all recreational firearms in the UK, there is really no such thing as an open or closed certificate as it does not say this on your certificate.
as an example my certificate may be classed as open because the condition reads xxxx rifle & ammunition may be used for zeroing, stalking or pest control on xxxxx farm a all other land where the certificate holder has permission to shoot.
My 338 lapua may only be used for target shooting on ranges past for that calibre.
each firearm on the certificate will have conditions imposed on it whether it be for hunting or target shooting you dont get a different licences for each discipline

 

[Matt.S]

This again is misleading and wrong.

a section 1 licence covers both game and target in fact it covers all firearms and air rifles over 12ft/lb used in the Uk, with exception of prohibited firearms, (auto's etc) which are covered by section5 or antiques covered by section 58.
shotguns are covered by section 2

as I said section 1 certificate covers most all recreational firearms in the UK, there is really no such thing as an open or closed certificate as it does not say this on your certificate.
as an example my certificate may be classed as open because the condition reads xxxx rifle & ammunition may be used for zeroing, stalking or pest control on xxxxx farm a all other land where the certificate holder has permission to shoot.
My 338 lapua may only be used for target shooting on ranges past for that calibre.
each firearm on the certificate will have conditions imposed on it whether it be for hunting or target shooting you dont get a different licences for each discipline

No such thing as a 'section 1 certificate', it's a firearms certificate irrespective of the section of the Firearms Act 1968 (as amended) into which individual firearms may fall. Authority to acquire and posess Section 1 firearms and ammunition may be granted by the local Chief Constable (or proxy thereof). Section 5 firearms and ammunition go on a FAC if the Home Sec gives the go-ahead, e.g. a pistol for humane dispatch, or Section 7 pistols. Section 2 shotguns and non-FAC airguns can go on a FAC if you really want and your local firearms officer isn't a by-the-book type, e.g. to keep a 'slot' open.

Now back on topic: HESH or AP for squirrels?

 

[320]

Now back on topic: HESH or AP for squirrels?

ap by all means! less collateral damage.

i do recall an 16 inch hickory, a bashful fox squirrel, a 308 remington with lake city match FMJ ammo and an old man's recollection of "barking" squirrels and opossums who wouldn't just come out and die like a man.

 

[Bogman10]

I use either my 7mm rem mag, ( for bucks )or just my .270 (win for Does) In Alberta Canada we get some very big deer. I also like that the Deer drop as soon as I hit them, so it's a very Quick and painless end for the animal.

 

[pete79]

It`s a 30-06 for me. I`m not into larger calibres as an extension of parts of my anatomy, but I do live in an area where game (the edible stuff; the only stuff worth shooting IMHO as I`m not a trophy shooter) tends to come a bit large and I want to knock it down. Having said that, when I was UK based I used nothing larger than an RPA .243, good all round calibre for most deer. I`d be tempted to use a 308 on a red stag though.

Pete

 

[jungle_re]

Intresting thresd this and glad all the miscreprecies have been put right.

my take.
love the .223 for up to roe and .308 is a very versitile round for uk deer larger, for me the 'one gun option' is the 6.5x55 swedish or .260 rem.

An RPA tumbhole hunter in .260 rem is on my chop in list for my .243.

 

[UKdave]

theirs plenty of written words about villigers chasing of eles causing crop damage and taking pot shots with there 22lr only to drop it on the spot! lucky shot of course, but it happens non the less.Iv also seen videos of people taking eles with string and stick,. as well as crossbows Admittedly they work in differant ways but it is still done.

 

[Oblio13]

theirs plenty of written words about villigers chasing of eles causing crop damage and taking pot shots with there 22lr only to drop it on the spot!...Iv also seen videos of people taking eles with string and stick,...

Show us. I can't find any of these written accounts or videos.

Only a brain shot would drop an elephant "on the spot". An elephant's brain is the size of a loaf of bread, surrounded by a massive skull and huge sinuses. There's just no way to reach it with a .22.

 

[Matt.S]

I remember an anecdotal story about a lady who took a grizzly with a .22 revolver. Of course the negative range probably played a part (her hand was in its mouth).