Calibre Choice for Deer WARNING - GRAPHIC IMAGES

[UKdave]

A friend of mine has a stalking setup in the highlands and he's often commented that too many english shooters come with their .243 and then he has to spend the night tracking with his dogs after the .243 hasn't been placed in quite the right place. He shoots 30-06 himself.
SBW

If you dont place the shot in the right place then it doesnt matter what caliber it is,its still a "bad" shot.

I`m also very surprised at that statement as well.I do a "bit" of guideing and i am much happier to see somebody turn up with a .243 that they shot alot rather than a 06 that gets shot once a year, as even something like the 06 can give a shooter a flinch.

I`m also a regular over in the states and take my rifle with me (6.5 swede) usually its Black bear but elk,Mule Deer and pronghorn antalope have all been taken cleanly with this caliber (and i have others inc the 308) its 1st shot,shot placement that matters more than caliber.

I have also shot Roe with the .223 and the Hornady 2695 and unfortunatly you will always get a fair bit of meat damage with this type of bullet IF you hit bone,if you can get it between ribs in and out! then you will have little if any but that could be said for most calibers.

JMHO

 

[Cael Nu Mara]

If a pic is removed from a thread - for whatever reason, you're not supposed to put it up again. If you have problem with the modding on this site I suggest you take it up with the mod concerned or with Tony.

Use your common sense, and rephrane from posting it again.

Johan

I didnt want to course trouble you can take my pics of if you think them inapropriate in some way, i just thought it might spark the sort of wonderfull discussion we have here

Sam

 

[Doc]

I think Johan was referring to another picture, not yours, Sam.

Given that the thread is about avoiding wastage of food while still ensuring humane culling, I think your pictures were completely appropriate in this context.

 

[Cael Nu Mara]

.243 will take any game in the uk, even Red stags

Not with me you couldnt Ive seen to many deer not fall to a heart/lung shot to use one for reds. But IMO perfect for a roe or smaller, i own one for that very purpose. I prefer my Blaser Pro Tracking 8x57 for the larger deer, This is probably my favourite rifle, a cracker for follow up in thick cover, it has also stoped a charging boar before. I think the best calibre for reds on the hill is a .270, rarely get a runner. In my experiance it is Japp Sika that are the hardest to stop, because of this i take my Blaser whenever i go guiding for sika, just in case i need to put a "safety" shot into a beast. Fortunatley this has only had to happen once. T client put the round of 30-06 into the stag at about 200m, right on the edge of caledonian forest. The stag was hit with what i thought was a shoulder shot, though he didnt appear to have a broken leg. So i went and got the dog and we tracked him around 3 miles all the way through the caledonian into a Plantation, about 9 foot high and classic FC type planting. The tracker nightmare. Long story short i ended up puting 2 rounds to stop him at around 30m. Why sika are so much "tougher" than reds etc. I will never know, maybe one of you old hands has the answer?I wait in ernest.



Ive just gone off on one again... Sorry


Sam

 

[Cael Nu Mara]

I think Johan was referring to another picture, not yours, Sam.

Given that the thread is about avoiding wastage of food while still ensuring humane culling, I think your pictures were completely appropriate in this context.

Oh well, i think are all right in context too, although not the thing to look at before your dinner

 

[Ahjno]

I didnt want to course trouble you can take my pics of if you think them inapropriate in some way, i just thought it might spark the sort of wonderfull discussion we have here

Sam

Sam,

Doc's right, I wasn't referring to you, but to Oblio13 - I quoted him.

 

[xavierdoc]

I use .308 and .243 and have tried a large number of bullet designs and velocities in my homeloads. Meat damage has not been a problem with either and each shoots flat enough for ethical maximum range shooting. By this I mean that the limiting factor for me taking the shot is not the excessive elevation correction but time-of-flight, quarry movement, wind etc.

The .243 is a versatile round but I only use it on land where the police have stipulated (somewhat arbitrarily) that anything "larger" must only be shot from a high seat. I shoot mainly woodland fallow and they are a pretty chunky lot in my neck of the woods.

The .308 doesn't seem to cause anymore meat damage than .243, even with appropriate ballistic tips (never less than 150grainers, as the lighter bullets are designed to be too frangible and don't give controlled expansion/penetration in deer). I also shoot Roe and the meat is fine if appropriate bullet and shot placement are used.

The .243 has accounted for many large deer but I have had to search for a bullet that behaves. My initial load used 100gr Speer SPBT, which were accurate but didn't exit. Weight retention was usually less than 45% and the jacket would often separate from the core:

I tried 100gr Hornady's Interlock, BTSP and SST, Nosler's Partition and Sierra Gameking and Prohunter (amongst others.) None have proved 100% satisfactory for Fallow buck or even large female. By this I mean that the round has not reliably exited despite not hitting shoulder on entry or exit, only rib. With one notable exception, none of the animals have suffered or required a second shot. The exception was a solid fallow buck at which I took a high heart shot. He barely flinched and even carried on toward me. I was worried I must have lost zero on the scope and wasn't going to take another shot, I assumed I had missed cleanly. I watched him through the scope and as he neared, I could see a patch of ruffled hair on his side which matched my shot placement. He sauntered closer and I decided to take a neck shot as he showed no unsteadiness and was close enough. He dropped cleanly.

The gralloch revealed the ventricles of the heart were shot through with the first shot: (The left of the two hearts in this pic):

Incidentally, the heart is very tasty when not damaged.

I have felt uneasy shooting larger species with .243 since then. The .308 is a nice short action, easy to handload and not too kicky. It has always done the job and left enough exit to track deer that bolt 100 yds into cover despite a clean shot.

I had thought bullet construction and placement was the main issue at the heart of the "calibre" debate. I do think "too much gun" is rarer than "too little" in UK deerstalking.

I'm going to stick with .308 but will, at some point, try .260 or 6.5mm on the land with the strange calibre restriction.

 

[suburban bushwacker]

If you dont place the shot in the right place then it doesnt matter what caliber it is,its still a "bad" shot.

I`m also very surprised at that statement as well.I do a "bit" of guideing and i am much happier to see somebody turn up with a .243 that they shot alot rather than a 06 that gets shot once a year, as even something like the 06 can give a shooter a flinch.

He is something of a contrarian, shoots a lot though and takes a fair few people out, and as a complete newbie I understood his comment to be as much about bullet weight as caliber with more lead hitting the target giving a larger margin of error- i'd welcome your thoughts

I`m also a regular over in the states and take my rifle with me (6.5 swede) usually its Black bear but elk,Mule Deer and pronghorn antalope have all been taken cleanly with this caliber (and i have others inc the 308) its 1st shot,shot placement that matters more than caliber.

Tell us more

 

[Lo-IQ]

I don't know owt so here goes.

it'll depends on the moon and the tides in England there's heaps of confusion about hot calibres and deer hunting the old rules where minimum .243 on a setup hide. Police now require you to have DM certs 1+2, the hot rounds are as far as I was aware banned for some of the ranges down here so it's not so easy to get on for range time if you need it. DM requires a qualification shoot more info at BASC or the deer society website.

Most shoot will ask you what you shoot and tell you if it's not enough, most will also lend (rent) a gun to you subject to some paperwork being in order. Scotland is pretty simple there's no upper limit you can shoot with a 12.7mm AA gun if you want and the landowner says it's ok. Down South well make sure your paperwork is up to date, you have all the documents signed and photocopies with you. Should you ever get stopped it's easier. than having to explain youself, in the dark, in the sticks to the mostly uneducated police who are keen to confiscate and arrest. Then have to issue an apology, if you have the right to shoot on land your very lucky, Make sure your memberships are up to date with all the correct bodies there's acouple of cases going before the courts now about reasonable judgment, which are interesting to follow. The laws in europe are different again the german hunting license is very hard to do. Polish laws are easier to deal with but you need to know a Polish Doctor.

Most shoots down this way now require moderators and ammo to suit this will affect the ballistics table and rates of fall. So there are no accurate figure unless you chrono rounds but you may not be able to do that cos you might not get on the range to do so.

as for rounds well depends how you've set the shot up if it's a hide/ stand and you've fed on or put a salt lick up, if nobody is looking you could shoot a deer with a .22LR, a shotgun or a bow and arrow but this is all illegal. What would I shoot, well depending on species an time of year I would say .243 will kill pretty much anything down this way. I've seen a couple .17HR which are very nice but my local FAO won't let me have one.

on a walked up stalk you might want a .270 or a .300 or a slightly down loaded .308 (which you've had plenty of practise with) as you can't plan the shot and so things can go abit messy.

shots at less than 100m depending on the lay of the land I would not want to shoot a calibre of more .300 or 7mm for the simple reason splash back can spoil your day or the day of the person standing next to you plus it's hard to explain at A+E.

So all in a pointless an exercise discussing calibres, good or bad kills, over penetration, gas cavatation, tissue damage from using the wrong calibres or the hunting of undersized prey. If you want to shoot stuff get training, get a certificate for the prey you want to take, get insurance, get more bits of paper, walk the space and set the shot up. No point walking around with a cannon to kill sparrows is there unless your greek.

In the US I've shot deer with M16's on full auto but then that was in the south (you need banjo playing smilie on this forum) in Minesota I used a 7mm and we did some bow hunting it's all interesting stuff. Most of which can't be done in this country unless you like prison sex with men.

the above are my opinions some people may not agree but then that's the beauty of living in a free society...

 

[UKdave]

In the .243 i shoot 95 nos BT and have never recovered one,i always shoot for the "butchers shot" this is on both fallow and roe.My 243 is a heavy weight with big scope that i use for long range precision shooting of both deer and fox so am able to call my shots, as i almost always use this from a bipod or more often a high seat.I have encountered every type of reaction to the shot from dropping on the spot to running a long ways off, so to judge 1 animals reaction and base finding on such is very misguided (and one which is all to common)the reality IMHO is that we are, as you state "over gunned" this is no bad thing, but i firmly believe that a good shooter that understands what he is doing, is far better with a .22 than a 1 deer a year guy that shots a 06.I personally would have no hesitation to hunt my ground with a 22 (fallow,roe and muntjack) but i can always pass up a shot as their is always tommorrow.
The .308 is an exceptional round and is an exceptional choice for the UK stalker but it would not be my 1st choice,but i`m more of "the surgeon's knife" than "the builders hammer".My choice for that is .260/swede or 257 roberts. If i lived and shot in Scotland then it would be the .260/swede because of the huge BC and SD of those long skinny boolits.
My pet hate cartridge is the 270, way to much bang and blast for the effort but seems to be very popular in Scotland, so just goes to show what i know.

 

[Oblio13]

The only instant kills come from hits to the upper central nervous system - brain or upper spine. A deer hit in the heart/lung area (which is a much more forgiving target - larger and less likely to move quickly) will almost always run for a few seconds.

Caliber doesn't matter nearly as much as shot placement, although it's better to err on the side of "too much" rather than "too little". Although going TOO big creates its own problems. Most people don't shoot big magnums well.

Thinking about this, I've shot deer with .300 Whisper, .308, .243, .300 Winchester magnum, .300 H&H Magnum, .30-30, .35 Remington, .45-70, .30-06, .270, 12 gauge buckshot, 12 gauge slugs, and arrows. From 500 ft/lbs energy to something over 3,500 for the firearms, and none of them killed deer appreciably faster than any others. (Although some certainly left a better blood trail.) Broadheads seem to do their work quicker than anything.

BTW, if anyone's imagination is running away about what the "forbidden picture" was, it was just an exceptionally large moose I took with a .308. Didn't mean to offend anyone, but there was no blood or gore showing, so it didn't occur to me that it would do so.

 

[mayfly]

My post deleted

Interesting thread

 

[Oblio13]

... make sure your paperwork is up to date, you have all the documents signed and photocopies with you. Should you ever get stopped it's easier. than having to explain youself... to the mostly uneducated police who are keen to confiscate and arrest. Then have to issue an apology... Make sure your memberships are up to date with all the correct bodies there's acouple of cases going before the courts now about reasonable judgment... my local FAO won't let me have one.... get a certificate ... get insurance, get more bits of paper... that's the beauty of living in a free society...

That last statement seems incompatible with all the statements proceeding it.

 

[Lo-IQ]

That last statement seems incompatible with all the statements proceeding it.

it's an english thing old bean....

 

[joejoe]

am i right in thinkingthere are different calibre laws for scotland

 

[Lo-IQ]

am i right in thinkingthere are different calibre laws for scotland

yes there are currently and long may that continue, there's also different laws for Ireland (north and south), Isle on Man, Channel Isle's plus there are exceptions in England depending who you know.

Otherwise it would all be too easy and everyone would have gun, these laws are there to protect us as only dirty crims are fire arms users and owners.

where is the simple thumbs up smilie?

 

[joejoe]

yes there are currently and long may that continue, there's also different laws for Ireland (north and south), Isle on Man, Channel Isle's plus there are exceptions in England depending who you know.

Otherwise it would all be too easy and everyone would have gun, these laws are there to protect us as only dirty crims are fire arms users and owners.

where is the simple thumbs up smilie?

so what calibre is used in scotland

 

[dogwood]

Broadheads seem to do their work quicker than anything.

This is true in my experience as well -- provided you get a good heart/lung placement, they drop fast. I have found that if I don't hit the deer perpendicular to the flank with a broadhead, they tend to run longer, though.

I read an interesting article some time back that said knapped stone points are even deadlier than contemporary broadheads. I felt the argument in the article was a little iffy, but it interested me a lot.

Since I'm a decent knappper, I'm going to put together some stone points for next year's archery season. We're lucky in California because there's an August archery season... Which reminds me that I need to double check if hunting with stone points is legal here

 

[Lo-IQ]

so what calibre is used in scotland

that's too easy...

it don't work like that there is a minimum calibre from memory which is .243 but no upper limit in scotland. In england the minimum was .243 but now each region (county and police force) has it's own opinions as new rounds are much faster but each has it's own problems hence they now want everyone to to have DM certs and training. If you fall foul of the law then it's simple don't pass go, don't collect £200, it's go straight to jail. I think from memory and I could be wrong as I've forgotten more about firearm law than most will ever know about it.

In scotland it has to do with landowners rights, we test .50 up there and we make lots of noise and never have a problem. We tested a hand build rifle down south and got arrested.

it's genius...

 

[Oblio13]

I read an interesting article some time back that said knapped stone points are even deadlier than contemporary broadheads....
Since I'm a decent knappper, I'm going to put together some stone points for next year's archery season....

For a long time, my goal was to make all my own archery tackle and take a deer with it. Points were my weakness. I tried knapping glass and vitreous china from broken toilets (we call it "Johnstone" or "Commodium" ) but never got a single decent point.