Wild Camping & the Law.

[Lostdreamer]

This is a subject close to all our hearts, and I don't think I am the only one slightly confused by it. I would like to try and iron out a few wrinkles from my brain, and hope you lot can help me with it. Hopefully there are people on here (farmers, rangers, old hands etc) with considerably more knowledge/experience with this matter than I have.

Let me first of all try and define 'wild camping', for my purposes at least:

To stay in one place for purposes of rest or relaxation, erecting some form of temporary shelter/accommodation and cooking food as necessary/reasonable for a period no longer than a day without prior arrangement or permission.

Ie: overnight leave-no-trace camping.

I want to understand what I can and can not do by law, because I don't want to break the law. I am not interested in where the theory & practice are different (ie 'stealth camping'). I would like to understand my rights, and those of others (including the rangers/land owners). Which bit(s) of legislation cover this?

So, as I understand it:

Unsurprisingly, I can camp anywhere with the permission of the relevant land owner.

I can camp in Scotland. Great. Unfortunately for me, I live in the midlands. Most of Cornwall is closer to me than Scotland is. Many others are in the same boat.

I am expressly forbidden from camping on Access Land subject to CROW 2000.

Several national parks (eg. Lake district & Dartmoor. Which ones have I missed?) have given permission to wild camp. This is where I start to get confused. Most of this is Access Land, so I can't camp there. Yet the Park Authority have told me I can, so I have the landowners permission and everything is groovy, yes?

So then:

What about land that isn't Access Land? Why, legally, am I forbidden to camp there? Is it Trespass? Vagrancy? Criminal damage perhaps?

What about if I pitch camp on a right of way, such that I am not obstructing the ROW? Eg. in a lay-by. I have permission to be there. (If you look you will see in places like old drovers roads there are wider areas which the drovers themselves used to overnight in) Why am I not allowed to camp there?

Gypsies/'Travellers' have been doing this for ages. How do they do it?

Thanks for any help, & TTFN
LD

 

[Toadflax]

I can't give you any answers on this, but I'm in a similar dilemma regarding catching crayfish (and various other bushcrafty activities).

I don't care what anyone else thinks we should /shouldn't be allowed to do but if I'm to enjoy my outdoor activities I want to stay within the law - in part because I don't want to be looking over my shoulder all the time, and in part because a functioning society is based on laws. I fully accept that there are some people who will break laws and ignore guidelines but if I don't keep to the laws then what right have I to expect that other people should do so as well? Other people may think differently - I'm not here to argue my point of view or to contradict anyone else's - simply to state it.

However, I do get exasperated when I try to do things legally, only to be met with bureaucracy that seems designed to hinder me from doing the right thing and I see others blatantly ignoring the law and getting away with it.

I don't have an answer, but I'll be interested to see what responses your thread brings.


Geoff

 

[Toddy]

Good thread

Can I ask that anyone else who posts does so with the same viewpoint as that which began this thread.


I know my post is going to sound as though I am coming down heavily on this, but I am

I think a thread like this is long overdue but if it turns to promoting illegal activity or a political rant, those posts will be removed.

A good discussion with information, hopefully with detail, is the aim.
Legal, straightforward, with good clear advice.

atb,
Toddy

 

[Mirius]

I can't add much but regarding rights of way such as footpaths, they only give you the right to cross the land, it gives you no right to stop and have a brew on the land.

If you can prove that a right, such as perhaps the drovers resting places have been used in antiquity then I think you have a fair chance of establishing it.

But I'm a bit vague regarding the legalities of staying on land. If you know you have no right to do something then doing it doesn't create that right - unless you have done so for a very long time (20 years) without the landowner objecting.

Where I am most vague relates to the gypsy part. My understanding is that if you are trespassing then the landowner can remove you (reasonable force?) but to evict such as gypsys requires a court order?

 

[mace242]

For Dartmoor the places you can wild camp do overlap the CROW land in some places. Have a look at:

http://www.dartmoor-npa.gov.uk/index/visiting/vi-enjoyingdartmoor/vi-wildcamping.htm

Also you would be surprised at how many farmers will allow some shot term (one night at a time) wild camping on their lands. All you need to do is ask and be polite. Show you know what you're doing and that you will treat their land with care and respect. If they say no then say thank you and move on.

The general rule is that all land in England belongs to somebody and unless there are rules set down allowing you to camp somewhere then get the owners permission.

I am a great believer in all of us bushcrafters and wild campers being polite and tidy. I think that in the long term having farmers and other land owners allow us to use their land is a great privilege and if we treat it with the gratitude and respect it deserves when allowed us we will only expand that in the future. I picture one person saying to another "I had some of them Ray Mears types on my land and they left it looking really nice - got rid of some of that rubbish for me" this can only help us.

I really think that less talk of rights and legalities and more of us being ambassadors for our chosen outdoor pursuits is wise. For instance I'd even speak to the landowners in Scotland if I went there and knew who it was, if I used their land. Just out of politeness.

Just my 2p worth

 

[Lostdreamer]

You know, I am getting increasingly glad I asked these questions because nobody has yet turned around and said “The situation is this...” Which raises the distinct possibility that nobody quite knows. That said, the post has barely been up for a day so it is still a bit early to be drawing such conclusions.

Let me make at least one thing clear before carrying on. I believe strongly in Leave No Trace, and respect for the countryside. Everything I pack out comes home with me, even the rubbish – infact I normally return with notably more rubbish than I started with. I am polite to everyone I meet, I will help anyone who needs help to the best of my abilities. If the local farmer, passer by or whoever isn't happy with what I am doing or where I am then I will thank them politely and leave immediately. It's partly a self respect and pride thing – taking responsibility for my actions and ensuring that I am doing whatever I am doing as well as I can do it. That I don't cause unintended problems or trouble for anyone else. I ensure anyone traveling with me behaves with a similar level of responsibility and respect. I simply cannot advise strongly enough that I think everybody should.

That is why I have asked these questions. I want to know - and know beyond all reasonable doubt - that what I am doing IS correct. That I am behaving responsibly and in such a manner that I won't cause offense.


Which brings us back to the matter at hand.

regarding rights of way such as footpaths, they only give you the right to cross the land, it gives you no right to stop and have a brew on the land.

My understanding was different. I thought that whilst the new Access Land doesn't give you permission to stop and rest, that such rights did/do exist on conventional ROWs. Whilst ROWs give no right of access beyond the ROW itself, I thought you were allowed to stop, rest & 'have a brew' (assuming you cause no damage in doing so, naturally). What I was unclear on is the extent to which such permissions existed. I shall do some more homework.

As an aside to this point, I thought I was reasonably up to speed on ROW issues, so the fact that I am unsure should possibly serve as a word of caution to anyone else who thinks likewise.

many farmers will allow some <snip> wild camping on their lands.

The tragic problem is that they probably shouldn't. By giving that permission, they are also accepting a 'duty of care' over you, and therefore a degree of responsibility should anything go wrong. In todays compensation culture, that I something I suspect they would like to avoid. Without this permission, campers are solely responsible for both themselves and any damage they cause.
This is ignoring practical considerations such as: 'How do I find out who the landowner actually is?', 'Are you honestly suggesting that every single one of the thousands of people who use the countryside should track down the local farmer first, cause I am sure that will get annoying for the poor farmer?' & 'What happens if I am running late and end up camping somewhere I had not intended to be?'

As another aside, I suspect the practice works more along the lines of 'you ask, the farmer officially refuses with a wink in his eye and a fiver in his pocket'. But that is where the theory and practice start diverging and is a whole new discussion...

Just my 2p worth

And now I am tuppence richer! Thank you, and everyone else for you contributions.

TTFN
LD

 

[Mirius]

Ineresting that you have a different view on the stopping on ROW. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not entirely sure on the position. My understanding is that ROW are based on easements. An easement gives right of access but not to stop. For example, you may have an easement that allows you to drive over your neighbours garden to reach your garage - but you aren't allowed to leave the car on his garden. It makes sense that there is some opportunity to stop - but if there is then there must be a cut off. Is there no right to stop, can you admire the view, brew, nap for an hour, camp? I'm no clear on the cut off if there is one and I'd be interested to know.

 

[Toadflax]

Obviously not a legal document, but this section comes from the Rambler's Association web site:

2. What are my rights on a public right of way?

Your legal right is to “pass and repass along the way”. You may stop to rest or admire the view, or to consume refreshments, providing you stay on the path and do not cause an obstruction.

You can also take with you a “natural accompaniment” which includes a pram, or pushchair. You can also legally take a manual or powered wheelchair (mobility scooter) provided you follow the regulations for taking these vehicles on ordinary roads. However there is no guarantee that the surface of the path will be suitable for pushchairs and wheelchairs

You can take a dog with you, but you must ensure it is under close control. Note that there is no requirement for stiles to be suitable for use by dogs.

They must presumably have gathered this information from some legal document.

Geoff

 

[Glen]

You know, I am getting increasingly glad I asked these questions because nobody has yet turned around and said “The situation is this...” Which raises the distinct possibility that nobody quite knows. That said, the post has barely been up for a day so it is still a bit early to be drawing such conclusions.

Part of the problem I see is that there seems to be no legal definition of, or guidelines for what is to be considered, "camping" At least that I've found. So though we all have our own ideas of what we consider camping there seems to be no way we can tell if a judge agree.

eg
If you stop, whilst wearing a poncho in the rain and fire up a jetboil, to make a brew it's unlikely to be considered as camping, legally, so does it make a difference if you take off the poncho and string it between some trees to sit down and make yor brew?

My guess is that it'll take a few cases to go before judges before the precedents are set, as to how it's going to be defined, before we really know where we stand in those more obviously grey areas.

 

[mace242]

Are you honestly suggesting that every single one of the thousands of people who use the countryside should track down the local farmer first, cause I am sure that will get annoying for the poor farmer?' & 'What happens if I am running late and end up camping somewhere I had not intended to be?'

Most of the thousands of people don't wild camp. If you're wild camping then you should make your best effort to contact the farmer if you really insist on doing out of the areas that are allowed by law without permission. Most I'm sure, and all of the ones I know for certain, would rather they were asked.

I just think that we're all better off being polite to each other and I'd rather risk annoyance by being too polite than offence by not being polite enough.

 

[mace242]

Part of the problem I see is that there seems to be no legal definition of, or guidelines for what is to be considered, "camping" At least that I've found. So though we all have our own ideas of what we consider camping there seems to be no way we can tell if a judge agree.

eg
If you stop, whilst wearing a poncho in the rain and fire up a jetboil, to make a brew it's unlikely to be considered as camping, legally, so does it make a difference if you take off the poncho and string it between some trees to sit down and make yor brew?

Good point. I'd suppose that if you're out in the rain with a temporary shelter made with your poncho then you'll be left alone. Offer a brew to the landowner if you want things to be nicer perhaps.

 

[Lostdreamer]

from the Rambler's Association (http://www.ramblers.org.uk/info/britain/footpathlaw.html):
Your legal right is to &#8220;pass and repass along the way&#8221;. You may stop to rest or admire the view, or to consume refreshments, providing you stay on the path and do not cause an obstruction.

Nice to know there is someone smarter than me in the world. Why not ask the RA? They really should know. It's a good answer, it does help, but it doesn't quite answer the question. Isn't resting/consuming refreshments exactly what I/we would like to do?(*) So, I set about trying to figure out where the RA got their information from in the hopes of some elaboration. After skimming through both the Rights of Way Act 1932 & The National Parks And Access To The Countryside Act 1949 I am still no wiser. The RA view is seconded by the Institute of Public Rights Of Way Management, however. Which mostly leaves the question of where does 'resting/refreshment' stop & 'camping' begin?

(*) = Given the definition used at the start of the thread, the answer to this question is actually 'No'. 'Constructing temporary shelter' is potentially the dividing line here.

The RA also have this to say:

A person who strays from a right of way, or uses it other than for passing and repassing etc commits trespass against the landowner.

Which answers one of the simpler questions. As people may well have suspected, if you camp away from an ROW, it's trespass. It's also trespass if you are using an ROW for more than 'passing & repassing'. I don't know if Vagrancy is relevant as well.

What I suspect may be going on here is that the ROW simply gives permission to 'pass & repass' (the exact wording of the quote from the RA site would support this assumption), but resting/having a brew has been proven in court to be a normal/reasonable use of this permission.

I should probably also mention that if you take anything (ie deadfall wood, pretty flowers) it's theft. If you break anything, it's criminal damage.

If I remember trespass law correctly (and I may not), the landowner is allowed to use 'reasonable force' to remove you from their land. If I was the landowner and I was faced with someone armed with a good sized sharp knife I would consider my shotgun to be 'reasonable force'. If I were a magistrate, I would agree with the said landowner. Perhaps it is fortunate for bushcrafters everywhere that I am neither.

My guess is that it'll take a few cases to go before judges before the precedents are set

I think Glen has hit the nail bang on the head. It is looking like the answer is 'Find out in a court of law'. Which, frankly, is a course of action I would advise to nobody.

Are you honestly suggesting that every single one of the thousands of people who use the countryside should track down the local farmer first, cause I am sure that will get annoying for the poor farmer?

Most of the thousands of people don't wild camp. If you're wild camping then you should make your best effort to contact the farmer if you really insist on doing out of the areas that are allowed by law without permission. Most I'm sure, and all of the ones I know for certain, would rather they were asked.

I understand, and agree. I must admit, even as I was typing that sentence I was looking at it and thinking 'The correct answer is infact 'yes". However, if I may continue with devils advocate/flogging a dead horse for a few moments, just for the sake of completeness?

But do they understand that they shouldn't?
What do you do if the landowner does actually refuse? (?& you are unable to leave their property easily/safely?)
What about somewhere like Forestry Commission land? Surely the forestry commission have a policy of refusing permission by default for the liability reasons already given, but the wardens/rangers probably don't care?



To sum up so far:
Camping in england where you do not have permission would seem to be Trespass at best. Depending on the exact situation, other laws (including local bylaws) may apply.


The main things I am currently curious about:
Does anyone know how you identify the relevant landowner ahead of time to get permission?
Does anyone know how you go about getting such permission from the Forestry Commission/A Park Authority?
Where does Vargancy fit into this mess?
How do gypsies manage this then?


Thank you all for your help & time, I shall try and remember to ply you with beer/tea when I next meet you.
TTFN
LD

 

[john wings]

i have climbed and camped,one nighters for fifty years;only once have i experienced any beligerence;that was from a red neck farmer,on the dorset downs;in this instance,i was unable to find a hidden site(always a perogritive) and during a heavy rain storm;i clambered over some barbed wire,pitched a tent,slept well,to awake to find i was within 50 yards of a road;hurriedly packing,i was too late,and received a pointed stare from a farmer,in his land rover,and asked what the hell i was doing.my motto,camp out of sight,and leave the site,as you found it;never fails!

 

[Scots_Charles_River]

I think if you -

- Ask the landowners permission
- Be discrete - camp away from rds and buildings
- Leave no trace
- Don't stay more than one night

Then most folk will leave you be.

 

[Surrey Yeoman]

Lost dreamer & anyone else that’s interested!

Section 4 of the Vagrancy Act 1824, created many offences, most of which having been repealed or replaced by more recent legislation. The offence that we seem to have been looking at here is, “Every person wandering abroad and lodging in any barn or outhouse, or in any deserted or unoccupied building, or in the open air, or under a tent, or in any cart or wagon and not having any visible means of subsistence and not giving a good account of himself or herself,” commits an offence.

However, by the amendments incorporated in the Vagrancy Act 1935, Section 1(4), the reference in the 1824 Act to a person lodging under a tent or in a cart or wagon “shall not be deemed to include a person lodging under a tent or in a cart or wagon with or in which he travels.”

So, I don’t think the average “wild camper” has anything to fear from this particular piece of legislation, as they should have some means of subsistence (a few quid in your pocket) and be able to give good account of themselves (camping out for recreational purposes) and crucially, would be lodging under a tent (tarp etc) “with which he travels.”

So, I think we’re back to a matter of simple trespass if you were to camp without permission and the Vagrancy Act offence isn’t really applicable.

Someone else touched on simple trespass such as might occur with “wild camping” and being required to leave the land by the landowner and his right to use reasonable force if you refuse. A sharp knife and a shotgun were mentioned! Now, just because you happen to have a sharp knife on you, ISN’T a good enough reason for “Farmer Giles” to start waving his shooter about! Remember, force may only be used AFTER a requirement to move has been made, i.e. he’s asked you to go and only if you refuse to comply with his instruction. His instruction also has to be reasonable and allow you a reasonable period of time to comply in the circumstances - time to gather up your kit and take down your tent/tarp etc.

As for “Travellers” and their caravans and vehicles as mentioned earlier, their actions amount to more than simple trespass, as they are in effect “taking possession of and taking up residence on land” when they encroach. That’s why it usually takes Court Orders to move them on.

AS EVER, THIS IS MY UNDERSTANDING OF THE LAW - PLEASE DON’T TAKE IT AS GOSPEL

 

[Surrey Yeoman]

I think if you -

- Ask the landowners permission
- Be discrete - camp away from rds and buildings
- Leave no trace
- Don't stay more than one night

Then most folk will leave you be.

Absolutely spot on!

Although might I be so bold as to make one small amendment?

"Clean up and leave no trace."

Then you've got "A B C D"

Ask the landowners permission
Be discrete - camp away from rds and buildings
Clean up and leave no trace
Don't stay more than one night

 

[mace242]

Then you've got "A B C D"

Ask the landowners permission
Be discrete - camp away from rds and buildings
Clean up and leave no trace
Don't stay more than one night

Excellent! I'll be using that. Well done the two of you! :You_Rock_

 

[Scots_Charles_River]

Ta, just simple KISS rules I suppose, I learnt it thru scouting.
Picking the right venue is key, PPPPPP.

Nick

 

[Scots_Charles_River]

Trespass etc

The Faslane peacecampers never get moved on and they are 'camped' right on the verge of a 60mph busy road. Bet I would be moved on if I camped that close to an Urban Clearway.

 

[Toddy]

Yeah, but if they try moving that lot on too often, they'll just camp ON the road holding up the traffic, etc .....and they'll bring their friends and the kids along too

cheers,
Toddy...who has friends on both sides