Rock on Rock Fire Starting

[Ed4sobrevivencia]

After figuring out the bow drill, fire plow, fire saw, fire thong, hand drill and made several fire pistons, I still hadn't had success making fire by simply hitting two rocks together. I was even starting to doubt that the anthropologist knew what the heck they were talking about in all those papers describing flint and pyrite strike-a-lights.
I've been gathering materials here and there, some Fomes fomentaria that I found on some birch trees, local chert (poor, lots of inclusions), and various pieces of iron pyrite also known as 'fools gold' sold at a nature store.
Sure I got those faint orange sparks, but I could never get one to start the tinder to glow. I charred shredded cotton and even fluffed up the F. fomentaria but to no avail. All I got was a lot of pyrite dust all over the tinder and my hands. I soon forgot about the method but every once and a while it popped up its head to laugh at me Then, I found a video on YouTube from BBC which showed Ray Mears starting a fire with flint and iron pyrite. His looked like what I would call Marcasite, a bumpy yet smooth rust colored rock. He described how the tinder was the very key and that it took patience. I decided that I'd give it another whirl this time using a 3cm cube of pyrite from Spain. I hoped that it would give me better sparks and not all the dust. I got better sparks but still a lot of dust. I then went on to make the tinder from the F. fomentaria. I broke through the hard shell with my knife and then scraped through the light soft layer just below it. I held the blade perpendicular to the surface and scraped back and forth to get very light fluffy tinder. After making a pile about 3-4 cm in diameter I went to work. I wore into that cube for about 5 minutes knocking the flint against it. It was full daylight and could barely make out the sparks. Three or four times the only evidence of a spark was a waft of smoke coming up from the tinder but no continual ember. I saw several small dull flashes as a spark landed on the tinder and quickly burned out. Hmm, what was I doing wrong? was the dust covering the tinder a problem? I periodically turned the tinder to expose clean material and kept at it. Then it happened! I saw a good waft of smoke coming out of the tinder, I hadn't seen the spark hit. I turned it to put some tinder above it and I gently blew. I must have had a smile from ear to ear! So it can be done after all. I soon thought to myself that if I ever had to start a fire without matches that this would be a last ditch effort only after first trying a hand drill and then bow drill if the conditions were wet.
The tinder covered with tiny fragments of pyrite (dust)
http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg128/depth-of-field/Primitive%20Fire/Pyrite-Fommes-fire.jpg
The pyrite cube, chert, and tinder with ember.
http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg128/depth-of-field/Primitive Fire/Pyrite-Chert-Fire.jpg

So after I blew the tinder into a flame I had to do it all over again. After about 1 minute I again had luck, this time the spark landing on some tinder I made from Caryota mitis (clumping fishtail palm) and powdered charred T-shirt.

So I'd like to know what you folks have done and what materials you've used. I can't seem to find any nodules for sale online like that Ray Mears had. I think it's a motherland item. And what do you all think about accounts of using flint on flint or pyrite on pyrite? Anyone out there done that?

Thanks for any help you can share. I do have another challenge that is bugging me. It's an account of peoples of Alaska area rubbing native sulfer powder on two quarts stones and wacking them over a bed of tinder with bird feathers to get a fire started....... ah, tried it and it didn't work. I often think people get sparks confused with triboluminescence! Please share if you have any leads
Thanks,
Ed

 

[Galemys]

Hi Ed,

I have started fire with iron pyrites and flint with tinder from the trama layer of Fomes fomentarius. The tinder wasn't treated in any way, just dried and scraped to a fluffy ball like you did. The pyrites however wasn't crystalline, just a big lumpy nodule with a scraped groove for hitting it with the flint (you have to scrape through the oxidized outer layer to get good orange sparks). I believe the crystalline pyrites has a tendency to crack or crumble when hit so the nodules should be a better choice for firestarting.

I've read about the inuit method but always doubted the quartz on quartz bit. It would be the same as using flint on flint which to me isn't likely to produce sparks good enough to use in firestarting.

Cheers,

Tom

PS

After figuring out the bow drill, fire plow, fire saw, fire thong, hand drill and made several fire pistons

any information on the practical side of the fire plow, fire saw and fire thong will be much appreciated as these are not very well known methods on this forum.
The commercial rattan (for furniture) I bought here in Holland to use with the fire thong is just too weak, everytime the smoke begins to rise the thong breaks. I will soon try out different sturdier rattan species from Borneo which should work.

PS PS
if you're getting bored with the abovementioned firestarting methods you can also try these:
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26754

 

[Neanderthal]

Hi Ed,

I've attempted to start a fire with flint and pieces of crystaline Pyrite from the gift shops.

Managed to create a few sparkes but just reduced the pyrite to gold glitter. I think that the pyrite nodules with a fine crystaline structure are better.

Stu

 

[Mike Ameling]

There is an article online about experiments done with different mineral rocks to create sparks to start a fire. I believe it was on the Wilderness Way web site, but it also might have been on the Society for Primitive Technology web site. It was one of the sample articles they had online - from their newsletter/magazine. The author went through a lot of different combinations.

Iron pyrite. Yes, the surface will "rust", leaving a layer of oxide on the outside. Getting through that layer will expose better material. Using iron pyrite and flint was used for many centuries as a fire starting method. The flint was often shaped like a flint knife blade, but with one edge dulled in use. And it was struck along a groove worn into the pyrite. It takes time, and very good tinder to catch those sparks, but can be done. When people relied upon it, you then quickly see why they also often carried their fire with them to the next campsite.

The key thing needed in any rock to get those sparks is the Carbon content of the rock. The sparks you see are the Carbon burning. So that's why iron pyrite works.

Sulfur is one of those unique chemicals. When you touch sulfur to a spark/ember, it will catch and burn rapidly. Striking a spark or generating enough heat when smacking two stones together should be enough to light sulfur.

The downy feathers from the legs of some birds do work well to catch that initial spark - without any prior preparation. They are also mentioned in some early fur trade journals as being used by the Indians for their fire starting. The one bird I remember being mentioned is the Eagle - so that gets ruled out nowdays.

Good luck with your experiments.

Mikey - yee ol' grumpy blacksmith out in the Hinterlands

 

[Ed4sobrevivencia]

I think the video speaks for itself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_DX_BL57jc
From Rabbitstick 2007.

Here is the link to the YouTube video that shows Ray doing it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdIBkJ_YBsk&feature=related
and another great one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaHNWaBmNJU&feature=related

Another videos of rock on rock:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsJLxHFaJ2Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HT4lDmoHJ9s&feature=related
Finding a marcasite or iron pyrite _nodule_ has proven rather impossible, if anyone has a source I'd appreciate the info.

Thanks,
Ed

ps. From talking to a geologist about marcasite and pyrite I learned that the difference is simply the pH in which they formed. The chemical composition is the same, the crystal lattice structure differs. They are made of Iron and Sulfur.