Guess what I found in the forest....

yarrow

Forager
Nov 23, 2004
226
2
54
Dublin
A tree :D But not just any old tree....

IMG_4561.jpg
[/IMG]

I recognised the bark from Mors Kochanski's bushcraft. He called it a balsam fir/subalpine fir. On studying my tree books im not so sure it is'nt Giant Fir or even a Pacific Silver Fir. A second visit with a suitable collection vessel is in order with an eye on picking some cones for a positive i.d!

It seems the resin has loads of uses- cuts, burns and scolds seeing as these trees have been felled it ain't going to harm em none :(
 

NickC

Member
Jan 24, 2004
40
0
Reading, Berkshire
yarrow said:
picking some cones for a positive i.d!

Cones will help with a positive i.d. but dont assume its the only identifier. You need to look at the needle etc. Quite a few conifers have similar attributes.

When a book only gives a common name it is difficult to get a positive match as often similar names are often used in different countries for completely different trees. i.e. Ash, Mountain Ash and Rowan. Try to find out the Latin name (nomenclature) and then use a good guide book to identify the tree (or identify the tree using a good guide book which gives the full name).

Nick

I have just realised that I didnt explain my example very well. In the UK we know the Ash (Fraxinus excelsior) and the Rowan (Sorbus aucuparia). Now I believe that in America the Mountain Ash (Sorbus aucuparia). Quite often at work I get asked to look at an ash tree only to discover its a Rowan.
 

Don Redondo

Forager
Jan 4, 2006
225
3
69
NW Wales
Nick makes a valid point [add to top tips Nick?]

Whenever you are out foraging, ID'ing plants/trees/fungi etc you should always endeavour to learn the latin names [no mean feat in itself] This is what gives the positive nomencalature, so there is no ambiguity whatsoever and when you pass your knowledge on use those latin names, again, no ambiguity.

You need to practise though... the easiest way is to name things as you walk along, aloud [go msilent to avoid funny looks] Even after 25 years in nature conservation and arboriculture I still need to practise my naming regularly ......

Latin/english/vernacular/welsh
 

Keith_Beef

Native
Sep 9, 2003
1,404
285
55
Yvelines, north-west of Paris, France.
Don Redondo said:
Nick makes a valid point [add to top tips Nick?]

Whenever you are out foraging, ID'ing plants/trees/fungi etc you should always endeavour to learn the latin names [no mean feat in itself] This is what gives the positive nomencalature, so there is no ambiguity whatsoever and when you pass your knowledge on use those latin names, again, no ambiguity.

I've always know Sorbus aucuparia as either "rowan" or "mountain ash" in English, or as "sorbier" in French.

Since arriving in the US, I've made the mistake of talking about a "plane tree" to neighbours, when everybody here calls it a "sycomore"... It turns out that "platanus occidentalis" (literally "western plane") is known as the "american sycamore" ; what in English would be a plane tree, and in French an "erable sycomore" (literally a "sycomore maple") is acer pseudoplatanus (literally "maple pretending to be a plane")...

K.
 

pierre girard

Need to contact Admin...
Dec 28, 2005
1,018
16
71
Hunter Lake, MN USA
Don Redondo said:
Nick makes a valid point [add to top tips Nick?]

Whenever you are out foraging, ID'ing plants/trees/fungi etc you should always endeavour to learn the latin names [no mean feat in itself] This is what gives the positive nomencalature, so there is no ambiguity whatsoever and when you pass your knowledge on use those latin names, again, no ambiguity.

You need to practise though... the easiest way is to name things as you walk along, aloud [go msilent to avoid funny looks] Even after 25 years in nature conservation and arboriculture I still need to practise my naming regularly ......

Latin/english/vernacular/welsh

Hmmm. Guess I'm in trouble. I know most trees and bushes by their english names, a few by their french names, a few more by their ojibwe names, and none by their latin names.

Identifying black ash: Corse bark, tall straight trunk, thick twigs, muliti spear shaped leaves. How do rowan (which we don't have) differ?

PG
 

capacious

Need to contact Admin...
Nov 7, 2005
316
9
37
Swansea
'Rowan' has smooth, greyish bark which is shiny when wet, with dark raised lenticals (dots) scattered across it. It is usually small, 10 - 15m, but sometimes reaching 20m.

The leaves are compound and pinnate in form, i.e. each leaf is made up of matched pairs of leaflets on either side of a stem or rachis, with a terminal leaflet at the end. The leaves are serrated with small teeth.

It is a deciduous tree, with the new leaves appearing in April, and they turn a bright orange-red colour in autumn before it loses them.

The flowers blossom after the leaves have appeared, usually in May or early June, and are creamy-white. Individual flowers are about 1 cm. in diameter and they grow in dense clusters, each containing up to 250 flowers, and measuring about 10 cm. across. They have a strong, sweet scent.

The berries are about 8mm. in diameter and are bright orange/red colour in August or early September. The berries are rich in vitamin C, and contain up to 8 small seeds, although 2 seeds per fruit is most common. The berries are edible, but not perticularly palatable, and it is common to mix them with other fruits in pies or breads.

Hope that helps Pierre,

Jake.

Edit: Here are some pics for you

rowan_tree_180_tcm3-66992.jpg


rowan_new_leaves_200.jpg


rowan_by_stream_200.jpg
 

david1

Nomad
Mar 3, 2006
482
0
sussex
NickC said:
I have just realised that I didnt explain my example very well. In the UK we know the Ash (Fraxinus excelsior) and the Rowan (Sorbus aucuparia). Now I believe that in America the Mountain Ash (Sorbus aucuparia). Quite often at work I get asked to look at an ash tree only to discover its a Rowan.

being in the tree surgey buisness name become important to get wright.

when I was younger my Dad gave me a list of ten Latin tree names to learn to spell.
not sure I could spell them now a few years later. But after learning just ten native trees while out walking / driving you could point out almost every your saw and thats a ............... until you think whats that ? so back home out comes the book and a new tree name is added to list. over the years I have fergotern the less common ones but a walk through the wood only reminds me of the common ones but a walk in a big public garden does make my mind work :)

use it or lose it I think the saying goes.
 

pierre girard

Need to contact Admin...
Dec 28, 2005
1,018
16
71
Hunter Lake, MN USA
NickC said:
I have just realised that I didnt explain my example very well. In the UK we know the Ash (Fraxinus excelsior) and the Rowan (Sorbus aucuparia). Now I believe that in America the Mountain Ash (Sorbus aucuparia). Quite often at work I get asked to look at an ash tree only to discover its a Rowan.

Mountain ash - that would be a bit different from black or green ash. I was thinking the bottom photo of the rowan looked like a mountain ash.



PG
 

dommyracer

Native
May 26, 2006
1,312
7
46
London
I read an interesting thing about tree names, but can't remember where (maybe someone else will remember, I'm sure it was a bushcraft type book)

It basically said that (for your own purposes) knowing what you can DO with a tree is more important than knowing its proper name.

It doesn't matter if you can remember all the correct Latin names of the tree in the forest, if you don't know what properties they have and what they are useful for you're no better off.

I'm sure it also talked about Native Americans calling trees things like "the tree that gives us rope", and how 'Lime' is derived from the old English word for 'Line' (cord)

Obviously if you're passing on the knowledge to others, then names help. :)
 

bambodoggy

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Nov 10, 2004
3,062
51
49
Surrey
www.stumpandgrind.co.uk
dommyracer said:
I read an interesting thing about tree names, but can't remember where (maybe someone else will remember, I'm sure it was a bushcraft type book)

It basically said that (for your own purposes) knowing what you can DO with a tree is more important than knowing its proper name.

It doesn't matter if you can remember all the correct Latin names of the tree in the forest, if you don't know what properties they have and what they are useful for you're no better off.

I'm sure it also talked about Native Americans calling trees things like "the tree that gives us rope", and how 'Lime' is derived from the old English word for 'Line' (cord)

Obviously if you're passing on the knowledge to others, then names help. :)

That sounds very much like Tom Brown to me, he strongly believes that the uses are more important and says if asked a tree or plant name by his students he won't tell them as it's not important........then again it could be a blag coz he doesn't know! lol :lmao:

I need to know the names of lots of trees for my work but I still have a tree book with me and do have to use it from time to time ;)

Cheers,

Bam. :D
 

Moonraker

Need to contact Admin...
Aug 20, 2004
1,190
18
62
Dorset & France
Keith_Beef said:
I've always know Sorbus aucuparia as either "rowan" or "mountain ash" in English, or as "sorbier" in French.

Since arriving in the US, I've made the mistake of talking about a "plane tree" to neighbours, when everybody here calls it a "sycomore"... It turns out that "platanus occidentalis" (literally "western plane") is known as the "american sycamore" ; what in English would be a plane tree, and in French an "erable sycomore" (literally a "sycomore maple") is acer pseudoplatanus (literally "maple pretending to be a plane")...

K.
Yep, in Britain the species Sorbus aucuparia is known as either 'rowan' (often 'European Rowan') or 'mountain ash'.

Rowan is the older name deriving from the Old Norse word 'reynir' and Swedish 'ronn', basically taking it's name from the root of the word 'red', in reference to the colour of the berries. 'Mountain Ash' is a more modern term taken from the American usage of the word for any members of the genus 'Sorbus', so correctly in the US they call Sorbus aucuparia the 'European Mountain Ash'.

In understanding trees and other plants I think a knowledge of both common and botanical names is useful because both often offer information about it.

Botanical Latin names of plants and animals, particularly the second or 'species name', often describe some characteristic feature of the organism, or describes the habitat where it lives.

Not surprisingly, these words are normally adjectives which quite simply describe the first (generic) name. Hence, 'Rosa alba'

Rosa = rose

alba = white (correctly a flat/ dead white, without lustre)

is 'a white rose'

Or with our example:

Sorbus aucuparia would tell us:

Genus: Sorbus = derives from the Latin name for the Wild Service Tree (Sorbus torminalis), sorbum. Itself from the Proto-Indo-European root *sor-/*ser- meaning "red, reddish-brown."

Species: aucuparia = botanical epithet meaning 'attracting birds'

So, a tree which has something red (berries) and attracts birds (which it does!)

Useful to know if you want berries or catch birds ;)

Often knowing the botanical name helps you understand the similar properties of the same type (genus) of plant, for instance a common chemical component offering certain properties used for herbal medicine, or properties of the wood.

As Nick mentioned, botanical names help us identify more precisely which species a plant or fungi is, which is important when similar species differ in toxicity, edibility or usefulness.

There is a useful guide to the botanical epiphets often used for the species name here:

FloralWiki - Botanical Latin

In the same way Common or local names can offer clues as to their use or appearance, so for instance 'rowan' as we have seen means 'red', another way to describe the colour of the berries. Also they often represent names used for the same plant over many years by our ancestors and are very much a part of our traditional heritage.

Also because most people will know that name rather than the botanical one. Lastly because they often sound so much more poetic and alive spoken in this way ;)

They are especially useful for locating or identifying different types of habitat because, having been in use for so long, many place names use them. So seeing Beech Wood on a map will give us a good idea of the type of animals, plants, terrain etc we might expect there. Or here in France if I see a place name or filed name called 'Les Outigues' I could expect to find nettles (from the latin name 'Urtica sp. it sounds/ looks similar to the French name 'L'ortie').

And of course you have some names which really give a clue like Soapwort (Saponaria officinalis) ;) Even the botanical name gives a clue there as the soap like properties of the plant come from the component 'saponin' and will help you find other plants with similar properties.

So, it's the reason I always aim to post both the common name and botanical name.
 

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