Ergot and Wild Grasses

[Toadflax]

Maybe I'm going over the top saying this but DISCLAIMER: Nothing said in this thread is to be taken as truth, everyone needs to do their own research.

I'm curious about using wild grass seeds but, being inexperienced, am wary of the threat of ergot. From the bit of research I have done so far, some stages of the disease should be easy to spot - blackened seeds and possibly mushroom-like growths among the seeds. These would seem to be easy to detect if you are looking closely at each seed head that is harvested, but may perhaps be missed if you were gathering a lot and getting tired /bored. The early stages evidently generate sticky 'honeydew' on the flowers. But are there undetectable stages that you could inadvertently ingest? Or is it the case that ergot would be evident at the stage when you would be harvesting mature grass seeds?

I'm wondering how widespread it can be within an area. For example, if you spotted one infected seed head, should you assume infection of all seed heads within the immediate area? Do you need to inspect every seed head that you gather?

I believe that there are certain species that are immune to ergot. Ray Mears mentioned in Wild Food (I think it was) pendulous sedge as a fairly safe wild grass seed, as being immune, so there will probably be more 'safe' species.

I wonder also how 'invasive' ergot is on the body. For example, would you need to ingest a lot to be severely affected, or might you get away with it if, for example, you ate one infected seed head? I see that it can be used medicinally, so the assumption is that under controlled conditions it can be used safely. Are there now any antidotes to ergot poisoning?

So, is there anyone out there who uses wild grass seeds, and can you comment on your experiences, particularly relating to detecting and avoiding ingesting ergot?



Geoff

 

[gregorach]

Well, I'm absolutely no expert on the matter, but...

Firstly, you can get away with the sedges because technically they're not grasses, and I'm pretty sure that none of them are affected by ergot.

Now, as far as I understand it, the real danger with ergot is cumulative. I think you'd need to consume a fairly large amount to to have immediate, acute effects, but if you're consuming a small amount daily then it builds up in your system until you go round the bend without even really noticing it.

There's a very interesting line of speculation that much of European history might been down to ergot - there are all sorts of instances of "mass psychosis", often expressed in witch-hunts, rebellions and pogroms, many of which seem to coincide with the sort of cool, damp conditions that favour ergot. I've even heard it argued that the French Revolution was at least partly triggered by mass ergotism.

 

[Toadflax]

then it builds up in your system until you go round the bend without even really noticing it.

Isn't that called life!


Geoff

 

[Toddy]

I have been prescribed ergotamine tablets (gynaecology....don't ask, messy ) and have to say I have *never* been so ill feeling in my life. After two doses I refused to take any more. Trust me, if you eat it, I reckon you'll know about it

It is fairly easy to spot in grain if you gather by hand and are aware; discard, without touching the seed head, *any* mouldy, sticky, or dirty looking heads and if the black coral shaped fruiting bodies of ergot are present just don't take the grain. We're not so hard up or starving these days that it's worth the risk. The major hideout for ergot is rye which is dark anyway.

I grow small clumps of oats, barley, wheat and rye every year and in all these years of doing so I've only seen ergot twice, and it wasn't in my gardens, thankfully.

The Scottish Agricultural College has this to say about ergot
http://www.sac.ac.uk/consultancy/cropclinic/clinic/diseases/ergot

and the World of Fungi
http://www.world-of-fungi.org/Mostly_Medical/Ziad_Madlom/Ergot_alkaloids.htm

cheers,
Toddy

p.s. I think the drug was actually ergometrene

 

[Tengu]

I read it was something that was dangerous in extreemley small doses.

 

[xylaria]

Ergot spore resides in soil in the winter, so unless deep ploughing is practiced it will infect the same area. Which does explain Toddys experience of never seeing it in her garden, and mine of only seeing in certain areas.

This year has been just the perfect for ergot, from what I have read of historic records. Wet cold years seem to precede winters of madness and witchburning.

Quite a lot of plants contain drugs chemically called alkaloids, belladonna contains 3 main ones, opium poppy 27, but ergot has 40 different alkaloids. All of these ergot alkaloids are related to LSD, which requires extremely small quantities to poison. Whether one small errand grain can cause poisoning I don't know. But as toddy said it is easy spot when hand gathering. Avoiding any grasses that look evan slightly black also avoids other toxic molds like aspergillus.

I need to do a lot more practical research on the subject before I can comment. On the school run today I walked passed an infected area, but another area was clean. But they appear to be different types of grass, so maybe learning to avoid species that can harbour it may work. It infects open flowered grasses which maybe why the sedges are resistant, and rye is a problem.

Does anybody know of a good source to ID grasses and sedges?

 

[Toddy]

I've got one of the Shire books and while it is informative, it's not enough. You're welcome to have a read though. I too would like a better, perhaps I mean a more *botanical*, with more illustrations and explanations, type of book of grasses and rushes.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Toadflax]

If there are any particular books that you want me to have a look at for suitability (including out of print books) I have access to the Bodleian Library in Oxford. Books can't be taken out of the library but I could have a look through them and offer my (inexpert) opinion of how comprehensive and usable they are and whether or not they might be suitable for you to buy.

You may know this already, but in case you don't, the Bodleian is one of the copyright libraries and, in theory, has a copy of every book ever printed in the UK. I can't take too many requests from BCUK members, because books often have to be ordered from 'offline' storage (which includes salt mines in Cheshire, which are evidently ideal conditions for old manuscripts and books) and you can't order many books at one time.

PM me with details of a book if you are interested. You'd obviously only get my opinion of a book, but I might be able to save you buying a book that turns out to be not much good.


Geoff

 

[xylaria]

When I went out yesterday I looked out for differances in grasses, then surveyed the ears for signs of ergot. I was on a hill that I had obversed ergot before. I was expecting to find ergot in a percentage of the sample but I found ergot in nearly every ear of several differant species.

I now really understand how a wet year meant famine.
Man is very clever in devolping resisant strains of cereal crops, and very stupid only consuming such a narrow range of them.

Thank you for the book offers, I am going to look in university bookshops in staffordshire to look for good field guide. I know what I like in field guide, I am very piccie, and i need to look at it before I buy.

Pendulous sedge only grows in SE england according collins complete british wildlife. But there is alot of differant sedges and reedgrasses to look for potential food sources.

 

[steve a]

A good book for Grasses is good old Roger Phillips again, sometimes you can find them in the remainder book shops, I bought grasses, trees, and wild flowers for £4 each, so worth a look, if not
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Grasses-Mosses-Lichens-Britain-Ireland/dp/0330259598

 

[xylaria]

Thank you steve a. The heads up and review is useful to me.

 

[RobertRogers]

This is very good information, and another reason this is an excellent forum.