Can I talk to a tree surgeon please!

[Abbe Osram]

Hi guys,
I have some question about the right handling of trees and hope you can help me.
If I in springtime want to harvest the inner bark of a tree, to make bark bread, how do I seal the wound in a way that I don’t harm the tree too much? While reading how the old timers did it I couldn’t see that they where much worried about the tree and only left the wound. What if I open the bark, remove the inner layer and than fold the outer bark back gluing it with pine or birch tar?

Second question:
When I am collecting spruce branches and twigs to build a shelter I read that if one cuts the branch 10 cm away from the tree trunk the branch continues to grow again but if I cut it near to the trunk the branch will never grow out again. Is that true? What is the least harmful way to collect twigs and branches for shelter building?

Third question:
While trapping laying out the snares we often cut a birch tree half way through bending it down to the ground and putting our snares into the branches. By cutting the tree half way through, bending it over, will the birch tree survive and continue to grow again?
The same technique is used to feed the animals in winter we do it with aspen too.

Thanks for helping
Cheers
Abbe

 

[Abbe Osram]

Please dont forget my question here guys, I hope that someone here knows more about trees than I and can help me with my questions.
I dont like to harvest lots of innerbark for bread and leave the tree to die.
If anyone of you knows how to do it in the right way and knows some answer to my question, please feel free to teach me.

thanks
Abbe

 

[led]

I'm not a tree surgeon, so take this with a pinch of salt until someone more qualified chips in.

1: It used to be thought that covering the wound with something would keep infection out. Often though, it did the opposite, and kept it in, or provided a good envronment for fungal attack. Current thinking is to leave the wound alone and let the tree heal itself.

2: If you leave a length of the branch, the latent buds under the bark will then have the opportunity to start to grow into new branches. Obviously if you cut the branch at the base, there are no buds left to develop.

3: Yes, as long as you leave a section of the trunk with phloem and cambium intact, it should live. It's amazing how little is needed to allow the tree to survive. You have to be careful when bending it over to make sure that you don't damage the remaining cambium. This is the basis of laying a hedge (though I don't know if that's something you do in Sweden?).

 

[Abbe Osram]

I'm not a tree surgeon, so take this with a pinch of salt until someone more qualified chips in.

1: It used to be thought that covering the wound with something would keep infection out. Often though, it did the opposite, and kept it in, or provided a good envronment for fungal attack. Current thinking is to leave the wound alone and let the tree heal itself.

2: If you leave a length of the branch, the latent buds under the bark will then have the opportunity to start to grow into new branches. Obviously if you cut the branch at the base, there are no buds left to develop.

3: Yes, as long as you leave a section of the trunk with phloem and cambium intact, it should live. It's amazing how little is needed to allow the tree to survive. You have to be careful when bending it over to make sure that you don't damage the remaining cambium. This is the basis of laying a hedge (though I don't know if that's something you do in Sweden?).

Thanks a lot mate, I am happy about your tips.

Have you seen too that some of the tree surgeons smear a kind of tar around wounded trees? I could see it when I was still living in a town that trees wounded by cars on a parking lot where treated in a special way. I was wondering what the guys use.

Cheers
Abbe

 

[Viking]

Removin barkg from "Pine" was a way to make töre. Samii people often removed the bark from Pine tree´s just to make them to töre. You can still se tree´s that have the bark removed. But many people today don´t realise how much a töre is worth to a woodsman. The tree has even been called "swedish black gold". So taking of bark from a pine does not have to bea bad thing.

10 aeay from the tree isa army rule to not kill kill the tree when taking spruce branches for example.


*Off topic*
Happu birthday Abbe!!! :You_Rock_

 

[Abbe Osram]

Removin barkg from "Pine" was a way to make töre. Samii people often removed the bark from Pine tree´s just to make them to töre. You can still se tree´s that have the bark removed. But many people today don´t realise how much a töre is worth to a woodsman. The tree has even been called "swedish black gold". So taking of bark from a pine does not have to bea bad thing.

10 aeay from the tree isa army rule to not kill kill the tree when taking spruce branches for example.


*Off topic*
Happu birthday Abbe!!! :You_Rock_

thanks mate!! By the way Viking I am studing about "Växter" just now and can highly recomment to you a book called "Vilda växter some mat & medicin" then I was able to buy a book from the antiquariat called: "Food and emergency food in the circumpolar area" if you search you will find on the net there is one availible for only 100 SEK in swedish and other ones for 600 SEK, it got mine in english for 250 SEK. Just a tip for you if you like this kind of stuff.

cheers
Abbe

 

[Viking]

thanks mate!! By the way Viking I am studing about "Växter" just now and can highly recomment to you a book called "Vilda växter some mat & medicin" then I was able to buy a book from the antiquariat called: "Food and emergency food in the circumpolar area" if you search you will find on the net there is one availible for only 100 SEK in swedish and other ones for 600 SEK, it got mine in english for 250 SEK. Just a tip for you if you like this kind of stuff.

cheers
Abbe

I already have Kjällmans bok "Vilda växter som matoch medicin" he did a lot of work for the aasmry survival school before and some of his reports are availabe from the Army research facility. Pretty interestning stuff to read.

 

[gaspode]

being an ex tree surgeon the tips you have been given can only be agreed with only please dont cover any wound made by removin branchesas it needs the air an rain to clean and heal itself

 

[running bare]

just a quick one abbe and viking what is a "tore"

thanks
tom

 

[Abbe Osram]

just a quick one abbe and viking what is a "tore"

thanks
tom

its a dead standing pine tree, the tree is grey looking on the outside and red/rosa on the inside, full of terpentin. Easy to light up a fire with and burns very good.
Ray Mears is using them in his sweden movie, making tar or some ski.

cheers
Abbe

 

[Viking]

just a quick one abbe and viking what is a "tore"

thanks
tom

Töre is what you make maya sticks off, best is to use a pine that has been infected by a fungi or to use an old pine stump. When the pine is dead and still standing all the bark has fallen off and its all grey, it´s called toppfura. Perfect wood for a long log fire.

 

[running bare]

cheers abbe & viking
I understand now. I saw the r.mears video on sweden and was facinated how they got the black gold but I think it may have been better if he explained how they got the turpentine or is there chemistry involved in it ? ( i know converting pine roots to charcoal and pine tar is a form of chemistry but i mean do you have to add chemicals or distillation or something like that ) just curious

tom

 

[Viking]

cheers abbe & viking
I understand now. I saw the r.mears video on sweden and was facinated how they got the black gold but I think it may have been better if he explained how they got the turpentine or is there chemistry involved in it ? ( i know converting pine roots to charcoal and pine tar is a form of chemistry but i mean do you have to add chemicals or distillation or something like that ) just curious

tom

No you don´t have to add anything, the pine tar is ready to use.

 

[running bare]

sorry i confused things a bit there :aargh4: but i meant how do they get turpentine
tom

 

[wolf]

when i cut any branch i always cut nearest to the main trunk,this includes shoots,saplings any form,this is so the tree cannot get infected.if an offcut is left this will be prone to fungal attack and other nasties,this is because the tree cannot heal itself.By cutting close to the main stem or trunk the tree can grow over,this is why we get burls ect the trees own method of healing itself..

 

[Moonraker]

Abbe, nice that you care enough to ask the questions

1. Bark is made up of cork and phloem which protects the cambium and xylem. Basically if you remove the bark you expose the living tissue of the tree disease. If you remove the softer part under the bark, the phloem, which is the way the tree takes the sugars and nutrients from the leaves to the roots, which you do to make pine bread, then you starve the roots and the tree dies.

There is a technique to kill (weed) trees called 'girdling' where by you cut a strip of bark (outer corky part and softer inner part) all the way around the tree. This cuts off the food to the roots and it dies as described. There is another technique to control the growth of a tree called 'ring barking'. You can control the growth of the branches just on one side by partially cutting the bark on that side. This does not kill the tree but restricts food to the roots below and hence branches,leaves above.

So, if you remove even 1cm all around a tree you will probably kill it. If you take bark from part of the tree which is taller rather than around the tree it may live but will be weakened on that side and will be more susceptible to disease and ultimately premature death. ANY 'damage' to the bark then, will affect the tree. Whilst some trees are able to heal themselves very well and re-grow bark around cuts and wounds, others can not do so well and even those that do will still be more open to infections.

But you need to put this in perspective too. In the type of forest you have there is usually an abundance of naturally self-generating softwood trees such as pine and birch so if you remove one or two then others will naturally fill that space. There may be techniques used up there which minimise the harm to the tree and mean it is not so damaging. Take for example tapping birch for sap in Spring like Ray M did on TV. If you are careful to plug the hole and only take what you need and the tree is repaired then it will probably live because you only make a small hole and only come back to the same tree after 2-3 years when it has time to grow and heal. Just with removing bark to eat the softer sugar and starch rich phloem is going to be more damaging.

In some trees there is a natural ability to re-grow from the base like hazel and willow for example, so it is OK to selectively cut those and they will grow back fine and in fact practices such as pollarding and coppicing take advantage of this property to benefit both humans how harvest carefully and wildlife that gets a more diverse habitat, whilst the tree also gets to grow and continue it's natural cycles. Others, like pines do not have this property and will not re-grow.

I think you accept that you are harvesting part of the wildlife as you would a rabbit or bird and make what use you can of the tree as well as the bark.

If you find a way to remove it and let it live I would love to know ;-)

2. wolf is basically right in that leaving a long cut branch which will die can lead to more problems to the tree. You are also right that you do not want to cut too close to the trunk of the tree too as this can lead to infection and it can't heal properly.

To get a rough idea of correct distance and method check out this well illustrated web page which includes specific images of just what we are talking about with careful cutting or pruning effectively of a tree, about half way down under 'Pruning method:':

Tree management post-establishment - Pruning method

These diagrams are adapted from the UK Forestry Commission Handbook 9, Growing Broadleaves for Timber.

So, personally I would say that 10cm is a bit too long. Maybe 5cm but the important thing is the angle of cut also if you look at the illustrations and to avoid the bark tearing and stripping off more bark which may also damage the trunk, by using an undercut first on anything other than small twigs.

Again, with pines they will not re-grow once cut like some other trees. If you see in a pine forest that the lower branches die off as the tree grows naturally and cutting some of the lower growth will actually encourage this upward growth (which is done as part of the management of timber forest anyhow).

3. Birch is more likely to grow back and is pretty tough and prolific anyhow. I would not really be too worried about them as they will re-grow or send up new shoots from the base is damaged and will self-seed anyhow in your type of terrain.

I am sure there are some properly qualified arboriculturalists on BCUK who will be able to offer more detailed and more up to date advice than this poor landscape architect But this should give you an idea of how to treat trees and enjoy them for the future....

I would love to try the pine bark bread sometime myself and I reckon that Vikings '"tore" ' is suspiciously similar to the English 'tar'

 

[NickC]

I am sure there are some properly qualified arboriculturalists on BCUK who will be able to offer more detailed and more up to date advice than this poor landscape architect

Thats just perfect Moonraker :You_Rock_ - I know a lot of arboriculturalists who couldnt explain it that well.

Nick

 

[Moonraker]

Thanks Nick

Just to help clarify a bit, here is a decent illustration of what we are talking about:

source: http://fig.cox.miami.edu/Faculty/Dana/

 

[Abbe Osram]

Hi Moonraker,
thanks a lot for the info, i just came back from Finland and could not say thank you fast enough. Your info gives me a great guideline for the future. I like to try out the bark bread but would not like to harm a tree for that. So, I will wait until I cut some trees for building my cabine or Sauna and will harvest the pine then. It makes more sence to me in that way, if I anyhow take down a tree for building I as well can use the rest for food. It was nice info on the birch tree, I am relieved that the birch is a tuffer character, I will see to it that I use birch mainly for my traps in the future.

thanks mate
for all the help
cheers
Abbe