Wind Turbines

[Ogri the trog]

The downside of wind turbines is that they have to be located on tops of hills and therefore are open to view for miles around ( and so more people feel as though they should comment on their presence). Solar arrays tend to be located on flat, low-laying areas without hills (which would cast a shadow) and hydro plants are hidden inside dams or hillsides and tidal is obviously out at sea - hence they often go "unseen" and therefore uncommented upon.
I live a few miles from one of the biggest wind farms in Wales (and I can see three separate wind-farms from the top of my hill) - when the wind is from a particular direction - man are those things LOUD! They sound to me as though they have straight cut gears (made by the lowest bidder in order to maximise the company profits) due to the grumbling / pulsing noise they make - sort that and any sound of the blades turning would be lost among the noise of the wind anyway.

They are a demonstration of the fact that we are willing to do "something" about our reliance on fossil fuels, but I do think that as technology advances, older wind turbines should be removed and the hillsides restored. However, because the green energy companies have permissions for turbines, they replace with larger models to grab a larger share of the wind energy market rather than branch into other areas of a green/renewable energy market.

Rant over, I'm off for a lay down.

Ogri the trog

 

[locum76]

WT is a swear word in my office and throughout my industry (Hydro).

I think wind powered electricity generation is a very good thing, the Spanish have got it right. I once drove a camper van from Santander to Barcelona and there are huge wind farms along the whole stretch of motorway from west to east, in the middle of a desert with virtually no-one around.

I'd genuinely love to know what can be done to increase hydro output (if you mean the kind of hydro dams dotted all over Scotland) because there would not be a snowballs chance in hell that you'd get away with building one of those now. If it's tidal power you're speaking of, I think that's great too but what about all the little fish?

More wind, tide, hydro, solar power generation the better I say and to hang with all the NIMBYists. I'll go one step further and add to hang with all the NIMBYists who don't like polytunnels too.

 

[ganstey]

Wind power has it's issues, not least the reaction of those living close to wind farms.

But there is one thing we could do that I believe would make a significant contribution to renewable energy in the UK - Force all housing developers to fit solar panels to new houses sufficient to provide electricity for an average family living in that house. They can still feed excess electricity back to the grid as retrofitted systems do now. Given the number of units needed, it would benefit from economies of scale both in terms of production and fitting, and so I believe won't add significantly to the purchase price (which seems to be negotiable anyway). It would also provide jobs for fitters, even if the panels themselves have to be imported.

No developer is going to do this off their own back, as the cost would be too high. But if national planning rules were changed to make it compulsory, then I see no reason why it wouldn't work. As the cost of panels came down it would also boost the retrofit market as well.

Graham

 

[ged]

It works fine, when it's windy.

The trouble is it's rarely windy enough to get the power output that it says on the advertising blurb.

Not so long ago I looked into installing a turbine on our industrial estate in Derbyshire. I spoke at length to a very helpful chap who worked for a company which makes them.

When it became clear from what he told me that the installation hadn't a hope of ever paying for itself, I said "This isn't economically viable, it can never pay for itself!" or something like that.

He said "No, it can't by itself, but you can get government grants, and carbon offsets, and things like that."

As politely as I could, I said goodbye.

 

[Toddy]

I think the single biggest improvement will be in our efficiency in energy technology.

Look at torches, tiny wee batteries now, bright as daylight for hours on end, and weighing a few grams.
We had a power cut just over a week ago. I put four AA batteries into a parasol light ring of 20 leds and propped it on a candle stand. It lit the room effortlessly.
I was so impressed I bought one for each room in the house and put them by just in case it happened again. Expensive ? Nope...£1 each ring.

And this is repeated right across the range of electrical items; we really are getting better at this

Yeah, I know, I'm an optimist

cheers,
Toddy

 

[nunzionuk]

LEDs are a great idea, I replaced our kitchen spot lights with led ones, almost one tenth of the power of the old ones, and a lot brighter (white light too)

 

[rancid badger]

I think they're fantastic looking things and you can come and put one ( or 20 or 40 or 100!) near me any time you like.

as for the environmental impact on wildlife etc; Blimey! I still remember the racket that used to come from the massive coal fired power station at Stella,down the road from where I was brought up in Ryton. And the winter "fogs" that stank of sulphur (though obviously a lot of that was caused by domestic coal fires)

You didn't get a dawn chorus when I was a kid, you got a mixture of the roar of released steam ( any time of the day or night actually) and the spuggies coughing their little guts out!

Not to mention the "Bessie Surtees" sailing backwards and forwards with ash and slag from the power station, to dump it off the mouth of the Tyne.


So all things considered; I think there are far worse ways of producing energy than wind power.

cheers

Steve

 

[santaman2000]

LEDs are a great idea, I replaced our kitchen spot lights with led ones, almost one tenth of the power of the old ones, and a lot brighter (white light too)

I like LEDs up to a point. But my experience has been the opposite. I get a bit dimmer light and rather than whiter, it's a more blueish light.

 

[santaman2000]

As to whether they're efficient or not I suppose it depends on where you are (meaning your average wind levels) I remember over 26 years ago when I was stationed in Texas (central/west Texas) they were extremely efficient. Not wind farms mind you but the individual ones. More often than not there was excess power sold back to the power company each month. It's difficult to imagine that the technology has gone backwards. Same with solar power; it depends on just how intense and reliable the sun is in a given location.

As to whether hydro-electric dams will continue to be built? Well, China is currently proceeding with the largest one to date on one of the largest rivers in the world.

 

[Toddy]

OT a bit, but, we changed all the lightbulbs in the house for low energy full spectrum ones and from outside the house looks kind of icy blue lit, but inside the colours are true and clear
It's pretty good 'cause I sew constantly, I use a lot of natural dyes and the colour tones matter; I can also get very sleepy in a long dark winter and these bulbs really help me stay alert and awake
Wish I could get leds that did that too

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Ronnie]

I quite like them. They have a stark beauty which often sits well with the landscapes they're erected on. Power lines I feel differently about. They really scar a landscape I think, but you can't have one without the other.

I'm kind of surprised by the pro-nuke comments in this thread. Fukushima isn't over by a long shot, and is a clear example of how badly this technology can go wrong, and the poor design choices even an ultra high-tech nation like Japan can make. I'd much prefer wind turbines than those monstrosities.

 

[Shewie]

They are an eyesore but if they contribute to our greed for energy then I'm all for them. I'd like to see more put into hydro power as there's so much opportunity out there that we should be utilising every kw of it.

Don't get too close to them though ...

[video=youtube;kBYJul2ykZs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBYJul2ykZs[/video]

 

[blacktimberwolf]

I have nothing against wind turbines.. Nuclear is definatly not the answer, apart from the risk of accidents, short life span & the long term contamination of the sites, there is the radioactive waste & spent fuel to be dealt with.
We all have to learn to use less electricity ( as well as other resources) as the other renewable means of producing energy can not satisfy our current demands.
Wind turbines are a step in the right direction, albeit limited.

 

[locum76]

Nuclear is definatly not the answer, apart from the risk of accidents, short life span & the long term contamination of the sites, there is the radioactive waste & spent fuel to be dealt with.

..and there would no doubt be a peak plutonium to worry about.

 

[toilet digger]

Let's face it, the biggest problem with this planet is the fact that it's inhabited by humans.

Graham

well said, this in conjunction with abundance and frequency, says it all.
incidentally turbines, solar etc ; a step forward towards sustainability but there is far too many of us scurrying about the place.

 

[John Fenna]

We are a virus - we breed too fast, destroy our host and then move on to destroy a new host ...have you seen the reports of the polution we are leaving in the bits of space and the moon we have visitted?
Who is going to dose us with anti-virals though?

 

[Paul_B]

Nothing is THE answer. There simply isn't an answer to it. You want windfarms then have them in your back yard and you use the electricity they generate. Seriously. That is the only solution, local and small scale. Up in Kentmere Valley there was an application a few years ago for a small scale community micro hydro generation plant. Up in Inverie, Knoydart there was a community hydro plant there too. Same in Barrisdale too I think.

I am personally against windfarms as they are not the solution. Pollution to produce, install, operate and transmit to population centres. Transmission loss means efficiency is further lost. Also they visually and audially pollute the natural world even if you find them beautiful. I find the technology beautiful not its flaws.

Wind is best in the west generally and in Scotland. Scotland actually has a surfeit of electrical power hydro and other sources. That means any wind power is additional to their requirements and is spread to other regions with the transmission losses in the national grid bottom a result. That is why I say that power should come from the area that needs it. There is technology around that is applicable in local generation, why not use it? Putting your tin hat on could it be because small local generation doesn't suit larger companies set up to generate and transmit electricity around the country?? Are the subsidies for wind farms worthwhile? Would you put your own wind turbine up IF you could afford it? Would it be better to subsidize local generation schemes than businesses? I wish I knew it the Kentmere one was operational now. I think it got planning permission as it would have supplied the houses at the head of the valley. Isn't that better than putting larger wind farms up in areas where they majority of people don't want it. I mean if every house in the country had a small wind turbine that is a lot less noisy and a lower visual polluting piece of equipment and uses less pollution in its production isn't that better? Plus a solar power plant, ground source heating for communities and all the other technologies for local solutions.

There is a saying, "think global, act local". In my opinion that works best when everyone is able to make small changes in their area. small scale local renewable generation projects are acting local and if enough are able to do this then you have less need for large scale solutions hundreds of miles from where the power is needed.

Sorry for going on but it should never be about supporting business to make money but carbon reduction, reduction of other forms of pollution and reduction of use of finite resouces. I say end all subsidies to businesses. If it is such a good idea then let them make their own money and raise it too. Switch the money saved by this to local, small scale supplies. Perhaps make them free to low incomes and subsidized for those able to contribute. just an idea.

 

[Paul_B]

Oh! And another thing to pee off the greepeace crowd. Don't buy a prius, any other hybrid car or electric cars using present technology. Banks of batteries in electric cars use metals that are considered highly polluting to produce and dispose of safely. Plus the batteries have a finite life that is less than that of the rest of the car. I once heard that some cars have a battery life of 3 or 4 years before they HAVE to be replaced with new ones. The car involved cost £6000 new. With depreciation at normal type of car rates for a similar class of car would put the 3 year old car at much less than £3000. The batteries for the car actually would cost close to that £3000. So what you have is a pretty poor car that is totally impractical (charging over night for a 50 odd mile per charge range) and in 3 years or so is totally worthless as its value is less than what it would take to get it back on the road!! What would happen? Would we all put it back on the road when it is beyond economic repair? Or get a new one and write the other one off? Each car has a higher carbon load from manufacture than over 3 years of use for a modern, efficient petrol engine (small car like those small electric ones). Then pollution to dispose of especially batteries.

Anyway, I know it is off topic but like a lot of environmental campaigning organisations they just have no common sense in their solutions. Spend money on things that work when you look into them in the whole not take simplistic solutions that just don't work out as you want them to. BTW Greenpeace is one of the worst organisation out there IMHO. friends of the earth too. Full of idealistic muppets who don;t understand science and technology only see things in their form of greenwash. That is the local scene at least. Those at the top are clued up but still don't do what is right.

 

[wicca]

As far as small wind turbines are concerned, I think people misunderstand their actual capabilities. I have a Rutland wind turbine on my boat, I rig it when I am laid up for the winter in the Uk as surprisingly there is not really enough sunlight to make my solar panels fully effective... The wind gen really only operates in wind speeds of about 20MPH and above. It will then purely just trickle charge my 12 volt batteries, below that speed it is not at all effective as an electricity producer.
I have an extremely low power consumption on board, couple of strip lights, radio and this magic typewriter thingy occasionally. No fridge, toaster, electric heaters etc.so the wind gen and solar panels keep my batteries 1x 85ah and 2x 110ah charged, but it would certainly not be a reliable source of power for even a small household.

As to wind farms at sea...They make coastal navigation..err interesting..

 

[Andy BB]

We used to have a windmill in a house my parents had outside Cork to pump up water from an on-site well. Seemed ok - never had to repair it in 3 years anyway! And I had a wind-generator on my boat (LVM Wicca -you should have got a decent one ) - survived the hurricanes in both the South-East and South West (which probably dates me a bit!) But is it an appropriate technology for mass power generation? I don't believe so overall - expensive, high maintenance and very inefficient in most cases. Stick it out at sea and the maintenance costs increase geometrically...................

I don't have a problem with fission (lets face it, the Japanese one survived earthquakes and tsunamis, only to be done in by inadequate flood protection knocking out the back-up cooling generators - and that was and old design on an earthquake fault line), and fusion isn't yet ready to replace it, which hopefully it should be able to do in 20-30 years time (they already have at least one working model operating in France I believe.) As far as replacement for petrol/diesel, battery/hybrid cars are a complete joke. Now hydrogen - thats the way to go. not only will a small hydrogen unit power your car, but it could power your home as well! Major problem is getting a distribution network set up - certainly no "peak hydrogen" to worry about!