Why don't more knife makers use A2 tool steel?

[Hoodoo]

A2 from which maker ?

You can ask that question about any knife steel. That's why I made the point, all things being equal. There are clear differences in knife steel. Given that the ingredients are different, and the methods of heat treat are different, it's hard to see how they could all be the same, as is often the case that is made. However, the real question is one of practicality. Does it matter if your knife is rust resistant or stainless, holds an edge for 30 minutes of cardboard cutting or 45 minutes, hard or easy to sharpen, snaps when you pry with it, etc. etc? It all depends on the user imo.

As I said earlier, Buck has produced knives with a variety of different blade steels, but their bread and butter steel by orders of magnitude has been 420HC. If they have used A2, it's a drop in the bucket by comparison.

 

[Toddy]

thats fair Toddy, and i know you have seen them fail in the past, personaly ive used them alot rougher than i would use my customs and scandis ect and they have done very well.

I would add that the only Buck I've ever used long term was that ancient one. I saw a modern one snap it's tip right in front of me though, and the bit went flying off like a cut piano wire
Would I use one as I use my other knives ? Not a hope. I'd keep waiting for it snapping
I'm not heavy on my knives either, but they do get well used.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Hoodoo]

I would add that the only Buck I've ever used long term was that ancient one. I saw a modern one snap it's tip right in front of me though, and the bit went flying off like a cut piano wire
Would I use one as I use my other knives ? Not a hope. I'd keep waiting for it snapping
I'm not heavy on my knives either, but they do get well used.

cheers,
Toddy

I've snapped the tip off a Buck meownself. It's a knife I used for throwing back when I was in the Navy in the early 70s. One too many times wiggling it out of a telephone pole and the tip went snap. But it wasn't A2.

 

[Toddy]

Sorry UCBerzerkeley, we've taken this right off course

Hoodoo ? Is it just how they harden them that makes them, I think on it as brittle, but that's not really right, I want a word that means really hard and sharp and then they just sort of chink off ? Almost as though they removed all the spring from the metal.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Draven]

I have heard that Buck push the steel to the limit; the cheap stainless steels are more brittle than carbon at the best of times anyway I think. It's a real bummer that Bucks are 420hc, if they did them in 1095 I'd buy a lockback and belt knife in a heartbeat.

A lot of people still swear by them though, so I do think that it tends to be more isolated incidents that have stuck in the memory. At any rate their customer service seems pretty damn fine! I won't be buying a belt knife but will take a chance with the 110 lockback when I can.


I wouldn't mind trying a knife in A2, I really hate tough sharpening steels though and usually would prefer slightly less edge retention for slightly easier sharpening. I have two stainless knives (excluding my Rough Riders which have the best HT on any stainless knife I've had), a Cold Steel and a Spyderco UKPK; both of them are so damn hard I just can't even be bothered sharpening them with the diamonds. The CS knife just gets played with and the UKPK just gets used at work, just because while I could get them sharp, it annoys me trying.

 

[Hoodoo]

Sorry UCBerzerkeley, we've taken this right off course

Hoodoo ? Is it just how they harden them that makes them, I think on it as brittle, but that's not really right, I want a word that means really hard and sharp and then they just sort of chink off ? Almost as though they removed all the spring from the metal.

cheers,
Toddy

Bucks were sold for cutting, not prying. They were known for edge holding. Folks bought them for hunting and pocket knife carry for cutting twine, whittling on a twig, or opening a box. So Buck made them to hold an edge and they used cheap steel to maximize a profit although initially, it was also to provide stainless steel to a generation that grew up on carbon. Their competitors were also selling stainless steel knives. Buck didn't call their knives stainless though, at least not that I can remember back then. Stainless initially had a bad rep which continues (erroneously imo) today.

For a while you could get them in 440C which was considered premium custom steel not all that long ago but was more costly so I assume like most of their competitors, they went back to the cheaper steel. Bucks held an edge better than 1095 which was the most common carbon steel used by their competitiors like Schrade, Case and Camillus.

Bucks started to dominate the outdoors when hunting took on a huge sporting aspect and the golden age of camping and woodcraft faded. Leave no trace backpacking came along and sleeping by the fire faded. SAKs became the favorite knife of the backcountry hiker and a Buck 110 became the favorite folder of the deer hunter. It was a solid locking blade with some heft that felt good in the hand and did a great job of field dressing. It became cool and "bad" to carry a Buck on the hip. Every biker and bar room baddy carried one as did a huge number of deer hunters.

 

[robin wood]

The main reason most makers use O1 and not A2 is because it is easily available in small quantities in the dimensions they want and at a good price, simple as that.

I am lucky in living near Sheffield so I have access to specialist tool steel stockholders, most folk don't.

There is a lot of twaddle talked about how hard steels other than O1 are to harden. Sure to get the most out of D2 it may need a long soak at closely defined temperatures but it is far more forgiving than most folk think. I forge my best turning tools from D2 and home heat treat and they are far superior to O1 in terms of edge retention and toughness. Brittle? not in my experience.

 

[Toddy]

But are you not using the material for exactly what it's intended ?
Tools for a specific task.

Many of our knives, mine certainly, are used for a myriad of applications, and it has to be said not all steels are the best option for all of those.

I think you're right about availablity though, I can pick up O1 in knife size billets off the shelf in the tool shop, I don't think I can reliably buy any of the others outwith specific retailers.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[PeterHW]

Toddy makes a valid point in terms of the chemical composition of steels having quantifiable attributes which indicate what they would be best used for ....

To get a basic idea of cutlery steel properties and the advantages of certain steels for given applications this is a good article ....

http://zknives.com/knives/articles/knifesteelfaq.shtml

It was updated in 2005 so it is fairly contemporary with comments on who is using what etc ....

One of the important aspects missing from the article when it attempts to cover damascus steels is that knives made in Japan such as the Fallkniven blades and those by certain custom makers are using a laminated process whereby to increase the performance of a blade you may have the inner 30% of the steel that tapers down to the edge pinnacle made from a very high performance steel for edge sharpness and retention qualities sandwiched between softer steel either side to give the blade toughness and flexibility in tasks akin to prying .... thereby having the best of both worlds so to speak .... this technique is a very significant one IMO for improving the overall performance of a knife .... very much similar in results to the differential heat treatment process used on Samauri swords by coating the blade in clay to enable the spine and sides of the blade to be hardened less due to the insulation from the heat and having an edge which is fully hardened to take an excellent cutting edge .....

If you look at some of the top Japanese knife makers such as Hiro Itou and Ichiro Hattori who both make knives using a damascus laminated process whereby super steels such as R2 for Itou and Cowry X for Hattori are sandwiched between multiple layers of softer more stainless steels for corrision resistance and flexibility .... you then have some very technical knives able to offer increased performance than attainable from a knife made from a single homogenous steel.

However as Hoodoo has said a great deal of knife usage is simple "practicality" and whether what you use will "cut stuff" and work well .... and comparing aspects on price it is often very true that a knife done well from many steels much cheaper than the above processes will work fine for all your needs and save you enough money to buy the rest of the things you would want to do a hobby like Buschcrafting with ....

But it is interesting to know just how technical a knife can be made to perform well ....

 

[robin wood]

Of course £10 buys you a Frosts 106 which is a superb laminated steel knife. The other big benefit of a laminated knife is that when sharpening most of the metal you are removing is fairly soft so it is easy and gives good feedback from the stone.

 

[PeterHW]

Yes it is interesting how the same technique gives good knives available at both ends of the spectrum.... the Idun damascus in Cowry X done by Hattori is well over £1000 on Heinnie's site .... and the Frost is only a "tenner" .... lol ....

 

[michiel]

I have about 15 knives in A2 and 6 in O1. A2 does holds is edge longer, but it's not as easy to heat treat as I've heard. O1 Is widely available and relatively easy to heat treat.

I've used a new buck knife and wasn't impressed at all. It probably was the worst knife I've ever used. The old buck knives are far better and look better too!

 

[filcon]

I have got about 7-8 Barkies and have had 6-7 more, they are my favourite manufactured carbon knife.Totally reliable and very well made, got to thank Mojo for the Barky fever. You have got to trust your blade and I do trust Bark River Knives.
01 I feel is a good steel for a knife making enthuisiast, I have seen some really good ones.
However I agree with Toddy(Mary) as she witnessed me breaking the tip off a Buck fixed blade at a brownlee meet, totally unreliable and it was returned to the shop next day. I do not rate them at all now but they were a good knife years ago.
My favourite stainless steel knives are EKA,s, 12C27 is hard to beat. A2 and 12C27 is a good combination.

phil

 

[astmsteel]

I have about 15 knives in A2 and 6 in O1. A2 does holds is edge longer, but it's not as easy to heat treat as I've heard. O1 Is widely available and relatively easy to heat treat.

I've used a new buck knife and wasn't impressed at all. It probably was the worst knife I've ever used. The old buck knives are far better and look better too!

We supply all A2 tool steel and O1 tool steel for such kind of knives making.