Yep, gonna get one made when I get back home next week. I don't think I'm going to get very far with Woodlore or GB for that matter.
Uncle Rays New Signature Axe
- Thread starter JonathanD
- Start date
Yep, gonna get one made when I get back home next week. I don't think I'm going to get very far with Woodlore or GB for that matter.
This is a briilaint post, i'm off to amazon to get a handle for an old axe head i have here somewhere, Xunil thanks for this
Just a side note though, i never liked the gransfors axe head shape, the ones i came across are terrible for splitting, the wee metal gaurd on the outdoors axe is about the best idea they have came up with, shame as the quality of the axes are excellent, shame they never made a boxed shaped head like the bigger two below, I would buy one right away
Just a side note though, i never liked the gransfors axe head shape, the ones i came across are terrible for splitting, the wee metal gaurd on the outdoors axe is about the best idea they have came up with, shame as the quality of the axes are excellent, shame they never made a boxed shaped head like the bigger two below, I would buy one right away
I'd like to state the case for a Vintage Elwell No 3 head from eBay, a Faithful Hickory axe handle from Amazon in any length you find suitable, a wedge from a packet of axe wedges, and the inclination to think about what you want from your axe and then roll your sleeves up and get your hands a little dirty and tinker with it.
Result: around (or even under) £30 all-in and the pleasure of working with a superb old tool, giving it a new lease of life, and customising it to fit your own preferences. The end product should easily outlast its owner.
There is no such thing as a one-size-fits-all; what suits me won't suit you and vice versa.
I am 6' 4" and about 230 pounds (ish) and my frame and large hands allow me to use axes that others would not find comfortable in use.
Personally I have a lot of time for Wetterlings, if you don't mind spending some time on the bevels. I don't find the various GB axes have any particular advantage over the Wetterlings counterparts I have other than a slightly better off-the-shelf grind. In fact, the Wetterlings I have owned have performed better once the edge is properly established than the GB counterparts, and they seem to have been better heat treated. The vintage Elwell (and similar) heads are great winter projects that you can truly customise to your own needs.
A mate of mine thinned down an Elwell no 6 at the edge on my belt grinder and also took a bit of weight off the back with cutting disks on an angle grinder in his own workshop and ended up turning a great felling axe into a stunning limbing/light felling axe which more suited his needs. Cost was nominal (other than the time spent) and the result is entirely individual. Consider it the end product of his own very personal requirements analysis.
I picked up half a dozen various size Elwell heads at a car boot sale recently for £20. Most of them are the larger felling axes but if you are patient you can still find the smaller heads now and then, and the little Elwell 11/4lb carpenters axe is a great little hatchet for those looking for a small pack axe for kindling and shelter poles etc and the 2 and 3/4lb Elwell is an almost perfect pack-axe.
I have two of the felling axes restored and helved, ready for one of my friends who is a forester on a large estate. The others will follow during the coming weeks as time allows - happy days
From the bottom in the following picture, to compare sizes: Elwell no 6, Elwell no 5, Gransfors Bruks Scandinavian Forest Axe, Wetterling Carpenters Axe, my own hand forged Damascus hatchet with Cocobolo handle, Gransfors Bruks Wildlife Hatchet. For the sake of discussion the two hatchets are lying over three laminated longbow blanks (Hickory over Lemonwood, bamboo over Ipe, and bamboo over Lemonwood), and I use my Damascus hatchet and the Wetterling Carpenters Axe to do the majority of the roughing out when making my bows.
I'd be keen to see pictures from the top of the head of Rays new axe to get a better idea of edge geometry but, on the surface, I don't see anything radically different from the Small Forest Axe other than the potential for a little more power to the cut. Frankly, I think most people could match that extra bite by adjusting their technique with a Small Forest Axe instead of replacing it with a more expensive model, but maybe that's just me.
And for the record, for anyone who needs anything bigger than a hatchet (if you do, what the heck are you doing, and where ?) I still think that the Gransfors Bruks Scandinavian Forest Axe kicks the tar out of the Small Forest Axe in every way.
I'll get my coat...
That's cos you are not the target market, unless there is something you're not telling us?
You sure about that? Love him or loathe him, Ray knows what he's doing and maybe the subtle changes he has made with this axe make all the difference? Are you sure you're not tempted to buy once just to see for yourself? Of course the hype doesnt work on you, so if you did buy one and liked it, it would be purely on the merits of the axe and nothing to do with the marketing. I'm amazed you're not tempted, I know I am. You could always sand the logo off the handle, so nobody would ever know ...or maybe it would be better to leave it on in case you wanted to sell it? It's only £100 quid and it could be the perfect axe? If it turned out it was, you could sell all your others to offset the cost! It could be the most intelligent choice looking at it like that. As the hype is wasted on you, then you would just be making a logical purchase ...and £100 quid is cheap for a hand-forged axe. That's less than you would pay for a hand-forged knife. Maybe just wait for a few others to get them first and see what they think.
Whatever, just remember, the hype is wasted on you.....
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That's cos you are not the target market, unless there is something you're not telling us?
Whatever, just remember, the hype is wasted on you.....
The only reason I'm not tempted is the small fact I hardly ever use an axe. And when I do, I'm way too lazy to carry something that big. The logo doesn't bother me in the slightest, my Wildlife hatchet has one. That's big enough for my needs in the UK. Would like to try the Outdoor though.
Well, I had a bit of a session with my exclusive RM-axe-that-will-make-me-a-better-woodsman-'coz-that's-what-I-paid-for and I have to admit I rather like it. It is weightier in the head than an SFA and the longer shaft means that it does split more efficiently. Quietly pleased with the whole experience of this axe thus far, I snuck indoors and made a replacement mask for it. I hate the flimsy rubbish that Gransfors send out with their tools so I knocked up a hand-stitched, wet-molded thing which allows you to use the poll with no fears of either cutting yourself (because the mask is off) or of destroying the flimsy little strap that goes around the back of the axe head.
Next up: a bit of felling and carving, I think. But it certainly gets the thumbs up for splitting...
Next up: a bit of felling and carving, I think. But it certainly gets the thumbs up for splitting...
I also prefer the look of the hawk,
you had a reply yet from woodlore re smaller mask?
you had a reply yet from woodlore re smaller mask?
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Well thanks Woodlore, you indirectly put me on to a great little tool without the logo.
That does look like a very useful bit o' kit.
I am not bothered by any of the size qualifications of this axe as compared to any other. Anyone who has been using axes in the woods long enough knows exactly what size axe they want. Presumably, this axe is aimed for people who like axes in that range. I certainly do.
My problem however is that it is being advertised in a disingenuous manner. It is not a compromise between a Small Forest Axe and a Scandinavian Forest Axe. It is a Scandinavian Forest Axe with a very sightly shorter handle. The head is the exact same weight as the Scandinavian Forest Axe. The handle is only 1.5 inches shorter than that of the Scandinavian Forest Axe. I bet you that the average person, after holding each handle separately, will not be able to distinguish between the two. What is worse, is that Ray Mears keeps promoting it as if though it is some type of groundbreaking evolution of the Small Forest Axe, which does not currently exist on the market. It does, and it is called the Scandinavian Forest Axe, and every other axe in the same range made by Wetterlings and Hults Bruk.
I have nothing against a guy making money. I don’t mind if he wants to create a new product which he believes is better. However, be honest about it. This is a very sightly altered Scandinavian Forest Axe. Maybe this slight alteration is the only thing he needed to make the axe right for him. If that is the case however, just say so. Don’t try to sell me this as some amazing new Small Forest Axe.
Oh, by the way, two big thumbs up on re-hanging old axes. Here is a good video showing how it's done.
My problem however is that it is being advertised in a disingenuous manner. It is not a compromise between a Small Forest Axe and a Scandinavian Forest Axe. It is a Scandinavian Forest Axe with a very sightly shorter handle. The head is the exact same weight as the Scandinavian Forest Axe. The handle is only 1.5 inches shorter than that of the Scandinavian Forest Axe. I bet you that the average person, after holding each handle separately, will not be able to distinguish between the two. What is worse, is that Ray Mears keeps promoting it as if though it is some type of groundbreaking evolution of the Small Forest Axe, which does not currently exist on the market. It does, and it is called the Scandinavian Forest Axe, and every other axe in the same range made by Wetterlings and Hults Bruk.
I have nothing against a guy making money. I don’t mind if he wants to create a new product which he believes is better. However, be honest about it. This is a very sightly altered Scandinavian Forest Axe. Maybe this slight alteration is the only thing he needed to make the axe right for him. If that is the case however, just say so. Don’t try to sell me this as some amazing new Small Forest Axe.
Oh, by the way, two big thumbs up on re-hanging old axes. Here is a good video showing how it's done.
To say it's just an ScFA with a shorter handle isn't exactly true.
The profile of the cutting edge is very different to the ScFA in comparison, the bit is thicker and I hope over time it will prove to be a more useful camp axe than just a chopper.
rg598: if you look at the comparative dimensions and the general discussion of edge geometry then it is very plain that this isn't a Scandinavian Forest Axe at all. You could argue that it's broadly similar but it's definitely a very, very different animal.
I think you missed the singularly important point in that many buyers won't, in fact, have the foggiest clue about their preferences since they simply don't have the opportunity of owning or even trying out various axes. Many will buy simply because of the source and advertising spin involved and as long as they are told that this is the axe to have then, for them, it is. Most of those buyers will be deliriously happy, I am sure, and in many cases they will also have bought an eminently practical tool in relation to their needs - in other cases things may be less satisfactory, but that goes for any product bought in good faith.
I notice that you have just published a shed-load of comparative axe reviews, which I look forward to reading tomorrow.
For my own part I am still very curious about this axe - so far I haven't ordered one but I am very tempted to, just to satisfy my curiosity. A lot of folks will buy for various reasons and almost every last one of them of them will be happy with their purchase. The more I have thought about this axe the more I am starting to think that it is, in fact, offering a lot more bite with less effort for most people. I think it will be easier for most users to do heavier work with - the Scandinavian Forest Axe requires a shift in technique for heavier work that most people just are unaware of while this new one looks as though it could pack a lot more punch for those who might not be experienced enough with an axe to know how to do this through technique adjustment.
This is certainly not just a Scandinavian Forest Axe with a shorter handle though - that's a gross oversimplification. The head weight on its own means very little until you take its physical dimensions and especially its edge geometry into account. That weight head could be anything from a carving axe to a carpenter's axe to a hunters axe and they might all weigh the same but they are built to handle entirely different workloads.
I think you missed the singularly important point in that many buyers won't, in fact, have the foggiest clue about their preferences since they simply don't have the opportunity of owning or even trying out various axes. Many will buy simply because of the source and advertising spin involved and as long as they are told that this is the axe to have then, for them, it is. Most of those buyers will be deliriously happy, I am sure, and in many cases they will also have bought an eminently practical tool in relation to their needs - in other cases things may be less satisfactory, but that goes for any product bought in good faith.
I notice that you have just published a shed-load of comparative axe reviews, which I look forward to reading tomorrow.
For my own part I am still very curious about this axe - so far I haven't ordered one but I am very tempted to, just to satisfy my curiosity. A lot of folks will buy for various reasons and almost every last one of them of them will be happy with their purchase. The more I have thought about this axe the more I am starting to think that it is, in fact, offering a lot more bite with less effort for most people. I think it will be easier for most users to do heavier work with - the Scandinavian Forest Axe requires a shift in technique for heavier work that most people just are unaware of while this new one looks as though it could pack a lot more punch for those who might not be experienced enough with an axe to know how to do this through technique adjustment.
This is certainly not just a Scandinavian Forest Axe with a shorter handle though - that's a gross oversimplification. The head weight on its own means very little until you take its physical dimensions and especially its edge geometry into account. That weight head could be anything from a carving axe to a carpenter's axe to a hunters axe and they might all weigh the same but they are built to handle entirely different workloads.
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You are correct that there are slight changes to the design of the head, mainly the wider eye. My intention was not to say that they are the same axe. To the extent that I have said that, I was exaggerating. My point was that it is not a compromise between the Small Forest Axe and the Scandinavian Forest Axe as it is being presented. It is an altered ScFA. In fact the minor changes to the head will make it even more different from the Small Forest Axe than the Scandinavian Forest Axe. In weight and size it is almost identical to the Scandinavian Forest Axe-the handle is not even noticeably shorter. The thicker eye is presumably designed for better splitting, but it's not clear yet.
That is what I don't like about the marketing of this axe (yes, on his site and blog). A more fair comparison of his axe would be to the Scandinavian Forest Axe. Instead, it is beaing sold as some great alteration to the Small Forest Axe.
You are correct that an axe with a 2lb head and a 25 inch handle can have many different designs, but this one does not. A 2lb Kelly head is very different from a 2lb ScFA head, but the 2lb Wilderness Axe head is not.
I jacked the pics on the last page and put them side by side here (I hope you guys don't mind).
I am fairly certain that there will be no noticeable change in performance resulting from the alterations (mainly thicker eye). In fact, it reminds me of the difference between the Husqvarna axe and the ScFA.
Again, like I said, he has made some changes to the ScFA, and I'm sure they work for him. My problem was not that, but rather the comparison that is being made to the SFA rather than the much more similar ScFA. This is not a compromise between the SFA and the ScFA. It is a slightely altered ScFA. I'm sure it sells a lot better as a "radical" new SFA rather than as a slightely redesigned ScFA. The truth is that this axe has nothing to do with the SFA. Any fair comparison that would be made should be to the very similar ScFA.
Here is what he says on his site as far as comparing the axe:
"After years of designing, testing and refining, Ray and the Woodlore team are extremely excited to unveil this brand new signature model; in Ray's words, it's the 'Small Forest Axe Plus'."
"A good axe needs a combination of many features, but most importantly, it needs the right weight balanced with the right length of handle. There will always be a compromise between a small, portable hatchet and a large axe more suitable for felling; the Small Forest Axe is great, but it is lacking in weight and length for good splitting and chopping. I wanted an axe that was a little bit longer, better to swing with two hands, with a heavier head."
"It’s a mix between the Gransfors Scandinavian Axe and the Small Forest Axe, but there is real magic in it; anyone who uses it will see and feel the magic quality of weight and length - it makes it a very special axe."
The ScFA is mentioned only once, and only to say that his axe is a compromise between the SFA and the ScFA. What exactly is the compromise? The 1.5 inch shorter handle?! Really; this is the 'Small Forest Axe Plus'? What exaclty is the 'plus'; a Scandinacvian Forest Axe? That's what bothers me about the whole project. The advertising is disingenuous. I have nothing agains the axe itself (it's not my style, but I'm sure it will work just fine)
As far as people buying it as their first axe, there isn't much I can say to that. If people have that kind of money, good for them.
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Another point, if these are in fact hand forged axes that are not made with a press & former, then you will not see 2 axes the same. If you over-analyse the subtle differences between the new axe and the ScFA down to mm variations, you are in danger of analysing the accidental.
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True. I'm not sure exactly how they make them. Again, any comparison to the ScFA would be fair-to whatever degree the products allow. Saying that it is a 'Small Forest Axe Plus', is not, although I'm sure it helps sales to stick in the more rocognizable name in there.
Ray Mears: I thought long and hard about whether there was a need to design a new axe; I was asked to do so elsewhere a long time ago, and at first I thought there wasn’t. But I’ve thought very hard about it for a long time, and I felt there was something that could be done.
A good axe needs a combination of many features, but most importantly, it needs the right weight balanced with the right length of handle. There will always be a compromise between a small, portable hatchet and a large axe more suitable for felling; the Small Forest Axe is great, but it is lacking in weight and length for good splitting and chopping. I wanted an axe that was a little bit longer, better to swing with two hands, with a heavier head.
Over the years I’ve used axes for very small work right up to large tasks, and from this I’ve been able to build up a great in-depth knowledge of using different axes, and I’ve used that knowledge to design this axe. It’s a mix between the Gransfors Scandinavian Axe and the Small Forest Axe, but there is real magic in it; anyone who uses it will see and feel the magic quality of weight and length – it makes it a very special axe.
It’s been designed to give real bite. The weight of the head combined with its size makes it a little more potent to use – you can split wood with it one minute and then use it for carving the next.
The length is different, which is critical to the functionality of the axe. The handle is long enough, and the head heavy enough, so that the head is doing all the work. This means that your muscles can instead focus on guiding the axe, making it a much safer axe to use. The length of the helve, in balance with the weight of the head, is designed to give perfect balance.
For many years you’ve heralded the Small Forest Axe as the number one choice for Bushcraft. How does the Wilderness Axe compare?
It’s important to get the right corrolation between the axe head and handle length. But it’s paramount to base your choice of axe on the experience of the person using the axe. You should never choose an axe simply because it’s been recommended. A smaller person with a weaker wrist may need a smaller, lighter axe, while someone of a larger build will need a larger axe… When you’re on the trail, your axe has to be small and light enough to carry with you, but man enough to do the jobs it’s needed for. The Small Forest Axe is the perfect starting place; further afield, the Wilderness Axe will fit the bill a little better. The Wilderness Axe is like a ‘Small Forest Axe Plus’ – it lets you do the bigger jobs more easily.
I like the line where he says you should never choose an axe because it has been recommended. He is spot on there. We are all individual with different builds, needs and methods. An axe recommended by the most expert user may very well not suit you. You need to use an axe to get a feel of it. Reviews based on pictures won't cut it, so nobody has any qualification on this axe and how it works apart from the individual who has picked it up and use it. Same for any tool. There seems to be a few people that look at the name on it and immediately deem it superfluous without using it. Whats that all about? As for attacking the marketing, what do people expect him to say?.... "it's a new kinda inbetween axe, nothing special, just a compromise, few mm shorter here, few mm longer there, and fatter in places that I think will do. Nothing special, like I said, but please buy one anyway...."
His claims are not false or exaggerated but true in his statements, so what is the problem. Lets review the axe, not the person who sells it. That's pointless.
A good axe needs a combination of many features, but most importantly, it needs the right weight balanced with the right length of handle. There will always be a compromise between a small, portable hatchet and a large axe more suitable for felling; the Small Forest Axe is great, but it is lacking in weight and length for good splitting and chopping. I wanted an axe that was a little bit longer, better to swing with two hands, with a heavier head.
Over the years I’ve used axes for very small work right up to large tasks, and from this I’ve been able to build up a great in-depth knowledge of using different axes, and I’ve used that knowledge to design this axe. It’s a mix between the Gransfors Scandinavian Axe and the Small Forest Axe, but there is real magic in it; anyone who uses it will see and feel the magic quality of weight and length – it makes it a very special axe.
It’s been designed to give real bite. The weight of the head combined with its size makes it a little more potent to use – you can split wood with it one minute and then use it for carving the next.
The length is different, which is critical to the functionality of the axe. The handle is long enough, and the head heavy enough, so that the head is doing all the work. This means that your muscles can instead focus on guiding the axe, making it a much safer axe to use. The length of the helve, in balance with the weight of the head, is designed to give perfect balance.
For many years you’ve heralded the Small Forest Axe as the number one choice for Bushcraft. How does the Wilderness Axe compare?
It’s important to get the right corrolation between the axe head and handle length. But it’s paramount to base your choice of axe on the experience of the person using the axe. You should never choose an axe simply because it’s been recommended. A smaller person with a weaker wrist may need a smaller, lighter axe, while someone of a larger build will need a larger axe… When you’re on the trail, your axe has to be small and light enough to carry with you, but man enough to do the jobs it’s needed for. The Small Forest Axe is the perfect starting place; further afield, the Wilderness Axe will fit the bill a little better. The Wilderness Axe is like a ‘Small Forest Axe Plus’ – it lets you do the bigger jobs more easily.
I like the line where he says you should never choose an axe because it has been recommended. He is spot on there. We are all individual with different builds, needs and methods. An axe recommended by the most expert user may very well not suit you. You need to use an axe to get a feel of it. Reviews based on pictures won't cut it, so nobody has any qualification on this axe and how it works apart from the individual who has picked it up and use it. Same for any tool. There seems to be a few people that look at the name on it and immediately deem it superfluous without using it. Whats that all about? As for attacking the marketing, what do people expect him to say?.... "it's a new kinda inbetween axe, nothing special, just a compromise, few mm shorter here, few mm longer there, and fatter in places that I think will do. Nothing special, like I said, but please buy one anyway...."
His claims are not false or exaggerated but true in his statements, so what is the problem. Lets review the axe, not the person who sells it. That's pointless.
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I like the line where he says you should never choose an axe because it has been recommended. He is spot on there. We are all individual with different builds, needs and methods. An axe recommended by the most expert user may very well not suit you. You need to use an axe to get a feel of it. Reviews based on pictures won't cut it, so nobody has any qualification on this axe and how it works apart from the individual who has picked it up and use it. Same for any tool. There seems to be a few people that look at the name on it and immediately deem it superfluous without using it. Whats that all about? As for attacking the marketing, what do people expect him to say?.... "it's a new kinda inbetween axe, nothing special, just a compromise, few mm shorter here, few mm longer there, and fatter in places that I think will do. Nothing special, like I said, but please buy one anyway...."
I don’t see why people can’t disapprove of a particular marketing strategy. Generally Ray Mears has shown himself to be an upstanding guy. I just think that this particular marketing strategy is below him. If he was up-front about it, he would say it like it is: This is a redesigned Scandinavian Forest Axe. It is in no way a Small Forest Axe Plus, or a compromise between the Small Forest Axe and the Scandinavian Forest Axe.
In terms of head weight the Wilderness Axe is the exact same weight as the ScFA, but half a pound lighter than the Small Forest Axe-absolutely no compromise there. In terms of head grind, the bit and eye of the Wilderness Axe are thicker than the ScFA, putting it even further away from the grind of the Small Forest Axe than the ScFA currently is-the opposite of compromise. The handle is 1.5 inches shorter than the ScFA, but 4 inches longer than the Small Forest Axe. It doesn’t even split the handle length between the Small Forest Axe and the ScFA-compromise? You be the judge.
What annoys me is that there is nothing wrong with putting out a redesigned Scandinavian Forest Axe. If he believes that the changes he has made will improve the tool, then he should be proud of them. I think we would all be interested in seeing some side by side testing of the two. Until then, we have only speculation based on the design. Like I said, any comparison to the ScFA would be fair. Calling it a redesigned Small Forest Axe however is disingenuous. The marketing reasons behind it are obvious and disappointing especially considering the man behind them. I expect this from a used car salesman, not from Ray Mears.
Blimey, does it really matter whether he calls it a redesigned ScFA or SFA? It's hardly an underhand marketing move as the SFA was a redesigned ScFA to fall between that and the hatchet in terms of compromise and fill that niche. RM has just taken it a step further. Hardly a marketing morality issue, and he's hardly making any false claims. It's just an axe for godsake.
As Shewie says...
The thing is and in spite of Ray saying...
Recommendation is exactly what we do go on, whether it's prominent figures with credibility, or friends or people we think know what they are talking about, or sometimes the people who shout the loudest ...or sometimes we just follow the group. It's the nature of us and saying we shouldn't do it, wont stop us doing it. I agree with Ross, I do think it's a bit cynical to say we shouldn't buy on recommendation and then recommend a new axe.
Exactly! If someone wants to drop a £100 quid on this axe, fine, no problem at all - just dont tell me it's a magic axe. I know what it is, it's a hand made Scandinavian forest axe with a little bit shorter handle, maybe a few mm difference here and there, but in real terms, it'll make no difference to me. As you say, it's just an axe!
Recommendation is exactly what we do go on, whether it's prominent figures with credibility, or friends or people we think know what they are talking about, or sometimes the people who shout the loudest ...or sometimes we just follow the group. It's the nature of us and saying we shouldn't do it, wont stop us doing it. I agree with Ross, I do think it's a bit cynical to say we shouldn't buy on recommendation and then recommend a new axe.
Exactly! If someone wants to drop a £100 quid on this axe, fine, no problem at all - just dont tell me it's a magic axe. I know what it is, it's a hand made Scandinavian forest axe with a little bit shorter handle, maybe a few mm difference here and there, but in real terms, it'll make no difference to me. As you say, it's just an axe!
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