True Scandi Vs Micro Bevel

[PeterHW]

I am talking about the use of a micro bevel which is done using the Sharpmaker. The Scandi Grind of the blade is after measuring my knives 25.5 degrees inclusive. The Sharpmaker has two settings. One at 40 degrees inclusive for the primary bevel...i.e. that done "first"...another at 30 degrees for a secondary bevel...i.e. that done second and for the purpose of reducing the shoulders on the micro bevel of the 40 inclusive first applied.

The idea of a secondary bevel is for that grind angle to be shallower than the primary angle so that you DO trim down the shoulders only....the purpose of the secondary bevel being one of reducing the resistance of the edge when it cuts....but not being so shallow on the cutting edge that it causes the edge to roll...

This is as per the explanation DVD which comes with the Sharpmaker....and whose definitions for edge angles I am following in my post...I appreciate that different sharpening systems give different figures...the Lansky system forinstance talks of the angle per side and not the inclusive angle...but hopefully this follow up explanation makes things clearer.

As to the Woodlore mine is 4-5 years old....the thickness of the blade is 4mm the length of the scandi grind is 8.81mm on mine....working on using the inverse tangent method to find the angle of the edge....half the overall thickness to 2mm....divide this by 8.81mm and then use the inverse tangent function on a calculator to work out the angle of the edge as per trigonometry for right angle triangles...this gives an angle of 12.79 degrees per side or 25.5 degrees inclusive....this after numerous sharpenings...whereby the length of the original scandi grind will have been reduced and therefore the 8.81mm was likely longer originally....however I am happy if you are at a zero grind of 24-25 degrees inclusive...it still is way too shallow for a zero grind when scalpels are done at 17 degrees....and is no wonder the edge rolls if done on a zero grind basis....to stop the edge rolling you really need a cutting edge of 40 degrees....because 30 degrees has rolled for me and 35 degrees whilst better still blunts quicker than 40 degrees....

The nomenculture I am using for primary/secondary bevels in relation to the Sharpmaker is as per that used by Spyderco....they recommend sharpening at 40 degrees first and refer to the angle created by this sharpening as the "primary bevel"....they suggest improvements in slicing can be obtained if you round or thin the shoulders of this bevel and suggest then using the 30 degree setting which they refer to as the "secondary bevel".....hope this helps....

 

[FGYT]

got you now

however the order of grinds of a blade is usually taken from the spine so
your big old chopper there hasa full flat grind as its primary and a secondary grind for the 'V' which your doing at 40deg
not sure where the 30deg bit taking the shoulders off comes in
technically i would say its the secondary grind and hte 40 is the Triary grind as thats the order from the spine
But its done 3rd in grind order

ive done a similer thing developing my grind by knocking of the shoulders of the scandi all the way back to the spine
so i have a Full flat primary grind a 25deg mini scandi secondary grind and a micro bevel ( triary grind)


ATB

Duncan

 

[Draven]

The idea of a secondary bevel is for that grind angle to be shallower than the primary angle so that you DO trim down the shoulders only....the purpose of the secondary bevel being one of reducing the resistance of the edge when it cuts....but not being so shallow on the cutting edge that it causes the edge to roll...

Have to stop you there. I assume you must, as FGYT suggested, just have mixed up some terminology.

The green section on the blade cross section shows where the secondary bevel is. The red section shows the primary bevel. The primary bevel is the initial bevel ground and the secondary bevel is added later purely for the purpose of adding durability to the primary edge, which provides slicing ability and 'bite'. The shoulder refers to the point at which the primary bevel meets the parallel flats of the blade. The Green and red lines compare the angles of the secondary and primary. The secondary is, by definition, a greater angle than the primary.

Atb
Pete

PS: Sorry, missed your edit. Don't know where Spyderco got that from! I assume that it's a typo, as I'm sure I've heard Sal (Spyderco boss) over on BB use the terminology the commonly accepted way.

 

[PeterHW]

i think hes taking his angles the other way
ie Micro is the Primary and the main bevel is a secondary

its the only way that makes sence to me
but is alos using 2 bevels on the micro bit ie 40 deg then 30 deg then Scandi bevel this is would guess is for Spyderco to put a 40 deg secondary on their full flat knives then the 30 to put a micro bevel on that
(remember they cant do Scandi and the bushcrafter thisa year is the first go andcertainly didnt do scandi when the sharp maker was made)

tho i do agree a woodlore is a 28deg bevel ie 14 per side

my scandi bevels on my own made knives are 25deg ie 12.5 per side and i do use a micro bevel usually using my DMT aligner and going 1 notch up from the 25deg followed by a quick polish

At the cutting edge and even a mm up it makes little diffence on the angle its when the blade gets thicker further up a smaller main bevel angle actually comes into play
ATB

Duncan

Yes you are right in part....but as to how the angles are meant to work and be applied please see my post above.....however my Woodlore figures are the same as you make on your own knives and not 28 degrees inclusive....although perhaps these varied over time? Were later knives done with less acute Scandi Grinds?

 

[FGYT]

Yes you are right in part....but as to how the angles are meant to work and be applied please see my post above.....however my Woodlore figures are the same as you make on your own knives and not 28 degrees inclusive....although perhaps these varied over time? Were later knives done with less acute Scandi Grinds?

yes no worries now i understand what your doing i understand how it works


on the Woodlore ive always measured them with a 8mm grind hight which gives as 28deg angle for a 4mm thick blade. no idea if its changed from teh manufacture or youes had worn like that

ATB

Duncan

 

[PeterHW]

Have to stop you there. I assume you must, as FGYT suggested, just have mixed up some terminology.

The green section on the blade cross section shows where the secondary bevel is. The red section shows the primary bevel. The primary bevel is the initial bevel ground and the secondary bevel is added later purely for the purpose of adding durability to the primary edge, which provides slicing ability and 'bite'. The shoulder refers to the point at which the primary bevel meets the parallel flats of the blade. The Green and red lines compare the angles of the secondary and primary. The secondary is, by definition, a greater angle than the primary.

Atb
Pete

PS: Sorry, missed your edit. Don't know where Spyderco got that from! I assume that it's a typo, as I'm sure I've heard Sal (Spyderco boss) over on BB use the terminology the commonly accepted way.

It is a load more helpful when you can look at diagrams....and I agree that if we were to take grinds from the spine then what I have said above is confusing...but hopefully all is now clear...

 

[Draven]

It is a load more helpful when you can look at diagrams....and I agree that if we were to take grinds from the spine then what I have said above is confusing...but hopefully all is now clear...

Aye mate, all clear now, was a bit confused for a mo

 

[PeterHW]

Well now we have sorted that one out..... how about the next important question....is a Scandi Grind the best design for Bushcraft?

If most of us find that using our Scandi Grind bushcrafters on a Zero Ground basis is not too clever...and that our edges roll or alternatively chip out...and if even Ray applies a micro bevel to his knife either through his 50 strokes on his belt ( which would give a bit of a "convexing" effect ) or by way of using the window of the landrover as per the DVD...then is'nt it the case that we would probably be better off with a thinner flat grind knife sharpened on a convex basis or on a straight V edge micro bevel basis....rather than put up with the wedge effect a Scandi Grind gives us when slicing food or preping meat?

For me the ease of sharpening in the field was what attracted me most to the Scandi Bushcrafter....and I do love the looks of the blade as well....but I am coming round to considering whether if I need to micro bevel it to get it working at it's best....would'nt another blade design work better?

 

[Draven]

Well now we have sorted that one out..... how about the next important question....is a Scandi Grind the best design for Bushcraft?

If most of us find that using our Scandi Grind bushcrafters on a Zero Ground basis is not too clever...and that our edges roll or alternatively chip out...and if even Ray applies a micro bevel to his knife either through his 50 strokes on his belt ( which would give a bit of a "convexing" effect ) or by way of using the window of the landrover as per the DVD...then is'nt it the case that we would probably be better off with a thinner flat grind knife sharpened on a convex basis or on a straight V edge micro bevel basis....rather than put up with the wedge effect a Scandi Grind gives us when slicing food or preping meat?

A decent question. Personally, I put it down to opinion. I've never got on very well with convex or hollow grinds (at least half-height hollow grinds) when working with wood which I consider a significant amount of outdoorsyness to involve. I don't think there's any doubt that a full-flat grind is better for a lot of other things, but to be honest, I just don't do enough food prep, rope-cutting and so on to warrant it, given that I don't like them for wood work. I also just like them, they look nice and feel nice to use, are easy to maintain, etc.

If going for a sort of Nessmuk trio (double-bit axe for heavy/rough woodwork, felling, limbing and splitting trees + large-ish knife for food preparation/game prep + small knife/folder for whittling and fine carving) then I think a scandi grind only has a place on the folding knife. Since the large knife is for use with food and food only, it's just logical to go for a full flat. That said - if you prefer scandi, there's nowt wrong with that either!

Then of course there's purpose. If you're primarily a hunter, then I suspect a full flat may be more appropriate, if we're talking purely in terms of function rather than personal preference. A hatchet would make a nice addition.

So aye. That was a stupidly long way of saying 'Anything goes, imo'

 

[PeterHW]

Yes, I think it probably does boil down to personal experience and preference....still trying to work out what my preference is....

 

[FGYT]

Well now we have sorted that one out..... how about the next important question....is a Scandi Grind the best design for Bushcraft?

If most of us find that using our Scandi Grind bushcrafters on a Zero Ground basis is not too clever...and that our edges roll or alternatively chip out...and if even Ray applies a micro bevel to his knife either through his 50 strokes on his belt ( which would give a bit of a "convexing" effect ) or by way of using the window of the landrover as per the DVD...then is'nt it the case that we would probably be better off with a thinner flat grind knife sharpened on a convex basis or on a straight V edge micro bevel basis....rather than put up with the wedge effect a Scandi Grind gives us when slicing food or preping meat?

For me the ease of sharpening in the field was what attracted me most to the Scandi Bushcrafter....and I do love the looks of the blade as well....but I am coming round to considering whether if I need to micro bevel it to get it working at it's best....would'nt another blade design work better?

Exaclty why in developing the mini scandi and now the Flandi grind has large enough flats to plane well and sharpen the same but the Full flat takes the bulk out of the blade making slicing etc easier but still strong enough for a bit of abuse ...early days yet but i like it.

but again its all Personnel choice formed by what you expect to do and want to do plus skill and practice
I dont like a thick 4mm scandi blade with a woodlore profile but if I was in the woods it would serve well enough.
For me even a higher grind and a distal taper don't make it ideal for me just a bit better i like pointyer (which is obviously not as strong )

Flandi grind 6mm knife

for others its wont be right for their own reasons and prefs

ATB

Duncan

 

[Draven]

I love the look of that flandi mate, I think that it would really give the best of both worlds. When i have some money to spare then perhaps I'll be dropping you a line

 

[PeterHW]

Well on the alternative option front I took a coated Busse SJTAC variant which had a clip point and stripped it and polished and thinned the blade down and added a high convex grind. The grind I did tapers towards the tip giving greater sharpness towards the hilt for fine work and a more robust edge at the tip for rawling using the point and for working on carcass preperation such as seperating the Atlas joint...

The clip helps on heavy tendons and slitting the knee joints and also gives a good strike point for a ferro rod. The work was done with a relatively cheap belt sander and some good quality belts. Working side by side with my Scandi grinds this knife outlasts the edge on them and cuts wood every bit as well....so for me there is a lot to be said for thinking outside of the traditional designs for Bushcraft work.

 

[PeterHW]

I have another knife I also rate highly for Bushcraft work which again is in Infi but not by Busse although is by one of their subsidiary companies Scrapyard Knives...the S5 LE ....

This came with a thumb ramp like on a Bravo1 which I ground down and has a very comfortable Res C grip with a nearly full tang but which is shrouded by the grip as per a skeleton tang. However the tang could be fitted with grips and used as a full tang were the grip to ever be damaged so badly it split...highly doubtful given the testing done on these grips...and they really come into their own in extreme cold climates or for working in water such as an emergency knife on your PFD when canoeing or even diving....

The sheath fits very easily onto a PFD or indeed anywwhere clothing wise and the edge has been convexed with a belt sander and performs really well.

The edge has not been finessed quite the same as the SJTAC above but the knife is from thinner stock and with the high sabre grind needed less tweaking....Infi much like 01 tool steel sharpens very easily and you can restore the convex edge in the field very easily by stropping on a leather paddle treated with green chrome compound.

Don't get me wrong though....I am still very fond of Scandi's for comfort and use in the woods...but there are other options on grinds for those aspiring makers out there as FGYT has shown....

 

[British Red]

I love the look of that flandi mate, I think that it would really give the best of both worlds. When i have some money to spare then perhaps I'll be dropping you a line

Its sat on my desk right now and would have had a better work out if I hadn't thrown my back out. Right now I'm very, very impressed though

 

[FGYT]

Its sat on my desk right now and would have had a better work out if I hadn't thrown my back out. Right now I'm very, very impressed though

no worries should be jsut as usfull slicing stilton for crackers and Port

ATB

Duncan

 

[Draven]

Its sat on my desk right now and would have had a better work out if I hadn't thrown my back out. Right now I'm very, very impressed though

It looks great, I look forward to seeing your opinions after some more work and hope you get well soon mate, take it easy!

Pete

 

[Shinken]

Personally the more experience of sharpening i gain the easier micro bevels are and a true flat thought is not actually getting harder seems to be.

I think a flat scandi grind seems easier to a beginner because you dont have to judge the angle.

The TRUTH is that neither of them increase or decrease the life of the knife, you remove more metal on a flat than secondary. But after a lot of use the secondary will get wider at it's shoulder. Then it is time to do oads of work on the primary bevel.

Added together the workload is identical.

But i personally would never need to do the primary bevel on a knife that uses a secondary in the field so if any thing the secondary would save ME time because i have my fast removal stones at home.

Over all i think flat scandi's are really for woodwork not bushcraft as a whole subject. But if you want to use one for bushcraft then it's cool. we can all make our own choices!

I personally do a lot of woodwork so a zero scandi would be fine! (but i still prefer secondary for ease of maintenance these days)

 

[Peter_t]

The TRUTH is that neither of them increase or decrease the life of the knife, you remove more metal on a flat than secondary. But after a lot of use the secondary will get wider at it's shoulder. Then it is time to do oads of work on the primary bevel.

i usually sharpen the flat first then add a very small secondary bevel. i only do 10 strokes on my finest stone. i find smaller secondary bevel cuts better but being smaller doesn't shorten the time befor the knife blunts compaired to a larger secondary bevel.

pete

 

[Tye Possum]

If I was using a scandi knife for bushcraft type stuff but not just wood work then I would prefer to have a micro bevel on it. I find zero ground scandi grinds way too easily damaged though they work great as carving knives.
I also dislike the whole "true scandi" thing, I think that a scandi grind has a few variations but it's still a scandi grind. If it's a knife that'll be used only for wood carving then a zero ground knife would usually be the way to go, but on an all around knife I think zero ground is just too fragile. So if a scandi grind is what you have then you need to alter it in some way so that it will hold up better, and that way is the micro bevel. (unless of course you prefer zero ground, whatever works for you, you're the one using it after all)

To be honest though, I don't even use scandi ground knives anymore, except for my new carving knife (zero ground). I just found it too much of a hassle to sharpen them with their micro bevels and all that. I use a flat ground knife now, I find them easier to sharpen then a micro beveled scandi (I sharpen freehand, I choose not to use rigs and stuff, long story...) and more durable. If I need a knife that's sharp enough for some finer carving, then I'll use my carving knife which is a much better size for that anyway.