The Future of Farming?
- Thread starter British Red
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I would love to walk away from this thread, feeling a whole lot better that the countryside is in safe hands, and everything is fine and dandy, and getting better.
Unfortunately, I know different. I cannot wilfully ignore what I have grown up with, and see every day, nor what I know about about Agricultural practises in the UK.
Efficiency, and the marvellous harvest, glut of products, and big scale farms, are nothing but a faster way of sending the land into an unproductive state. It looks good for a while, till the edge of the precipice is reached. It won't be looking so good when we go over that precipice.
No one who sees what I see can possibly mount any reasonable defence of the system.
Unfortunately, I know different. I cannot wilfully ignore what I have grown up with, and see every day, nor what I know about about Agricultural practises in the UK.
Efficiency, and the marvellous harvest, glut of products, and big scale farms, are nothing but a faster way of sending the land into an unproductive state. It looks good for a while, till the edge of the precipice is reached. It won't be looking so good when we go over that precipice.
No one who sees what I see can possibly mount any reasonable defence of the system.
I'm just puzzled to what it is you're seeing and where you're seeing it.
feralpig said:
True enough, there is mental illness and well, everything else you've mentioned affecting farmers health and well-being, but those concerns effect many other industries as well and don't speak for the majority. As for the environmental destruction, polluted water ways and habitat and wildlife loss, the agricultural industry wouldn't be the first place I'd point the finger for those issues.
I'm not meaning to challenge your position on this, just to understand where you're coming from.
Feralpig,
I am at a loss to understand why you think education about farming is a bad thing? Do you think training youngsters on why neonicotinoids have been deemed unsafe is bad? Or UK animal husbandry standards are amongst the highest in the world?
If our farms are so bad, where would you suggest we source our food from that has better standards?
I accept things need to improve and, for me, part of that improvement is education. What are your suggestions for improving?
I am at a loss to understand why you think education about farming is a bad thing? Do you think training youngsters on why neonicotinoids have been deemed unsafe is bad? Or UK animal husbandry standards are amongst the highest in the world?
If our farms are so bad, where would you suggest we source our food from that has better standards?
I accept things need to improve and, for me, part of that improvement is education. What are your suggestions for improving?
I have absolutely no issues with teaching kids about bad farming practises. That's slightly different to teaching them Farming.
It doesn't take an agri college or qualification to teach kids that.
When kids go on farms, especially from inner cities, of course it looks wonderful, and it is, in comparison. It's very easy to leave the farm, unaware of the wider issues. Typically, at least at first, people, kids and older, when moving into the country, think the green fields and trees are marvellous. Some, after a while start to realise what they are seeing is but the shadow of what used to be. Some don't and still think it's a rural idyll.( I deal with incomers almost every day, they are the bulk of my business)
Trees have been pushed out, and the wildlife and plant life is decimated. We are over run with rabbits, the birdlife is far less than it was even 20 years ago. And what for? A few scruffy sheep? We don't need them. The yield is poor, and not worth the subsidies, nor the damage to the ecology.
The tax payer is ultimately paying for the farmer to have a pretty good time, while causing all sorts of damage. Flooding on lowlands, bore hole water being used to dilute the res water, to get pesticide levels down. Prime land being used to grow maize for bio digesters, to get more subsidy. This land is left devastated, a few harvests, and it finished.
Same with spuds. I've hauled spuds many miles, back to the farm, because the farmers land is so badly damaged, it won't support them, so he's going far afield (bad choice of words) and using fields on other farmers land, with ultimately ends up the same way.
Even round here, which is relatively unmolested, the ground in places is dead. It simply will not grow grass without chemicals, let alone an edible crop. Why are tax payers happy to sit back and let this happen? Because the place looks nicer than the city?
I could write a whole book on mental illness, random acts of violence, idiotic accidents and deaths, and the breakdown of the social structure, of just the district I live in, less than 100 farmers.
I haven't lived here all my life, I've lived and worked in towns, cities, and other countrys. I fail to believe, and have seen nothing to suggest that what goes on in the rural communities is in anyway representative of the wider population. There is a serious and unaddressed problem, nicely supported by the taxpayer.
I could suggest a multitude of things to improve the situation, like farmers being policed on their legal responsibilities not to pollute water ways, or being forced to plant trees to catch water run-off, or being forced to use bio digesters for their intended purpose, and not a money making scheme, or actually in some way giving back to the environment, instead of taking from it. All of which would fall on deaf ears.
No doubt each country has it's own issues with agriculture, and maybe this one is no worse than others, (I think it is). Regardless of that, IMO, it's bad, and should be better, and could easily be better.
It doesn't take an agri college or qualification to teach kids that.
When kids go on farms, especially from inner cities, of course it looks wonderful, and it is, in comparison. It's very easy to leave the farm, unaware of the wider issues. Typically, at least at first, people, kids and older, when moving into the country, think the green fields and trees are marvellous. Some, after a while start to realise what they are seeing is but the shadow of what used to be. Some don't and still think it's a rural idyll.( I deal with incomers almost every day, they are the bulk of my business)
Trees have been pushed out, and the wildlife and plant life is decimated. We are over run with rabbits, the birdlife is far less than it was even 20 years ago. And what for? A few scruffy sheep? We don't need them. The yield is poor, and not worth the subsidies, nor the damage to the ecology.
The tax payer is ultimately paying for the farmer to have a pretty good time, while causing all sorts of damage. Flooding on lowlands, bore hole water being used to dilute the res water, to get pesticide levels down. Prime land being used to grow maize for bio digesters, to get more subsidy. This land is left devastated, a few harvests, and it finished.
Same with spuds. I've hauled spuds many miles, back to the farm, because the farmers land is so badly damaged, it won't support them, so he's going far afield (bad choice of words) and using fields on other farmers land, with ultimately ends up the same way.
Even round here, which is relatively unmolested, the ground in places is dead. It simply will not grow grass without chemicals, let alone an edible crop. Why are tax payers happy to sit back and let this happen? Because the place looks nicer than the city?
I could write a whole book on mental illness, random acts of violence, idiotic accidents and deaths, and the breakdown of the social structure, of just the district I live in, less than 100 farmers.
I haven't lived here all my life, I've lived and worked in towns, cities, and other countrys. I fail to believe, and have seen nothing to suggest that what goes on in the rural communities is in anyway representative of the wider population. There is a serious and unaddressed problem, nicely supported by the taxpayer.
I could suggest a multitude of things to improve the situation, like farmers being policed on their legal responsibilities not to pollute water ways, or being forced to plant trees to catch water run-off, or being forced to use bio digesters for their intended purpose, and not a money making scheme, or actually in some way giving back to the environment, instead of taking from it. All of which would fall on deaf ears.
No doubt each country has it's own issues with agriculture, and maybe this one is no worse than others, (I think it is). Regardless of that, IMO, it's bad, and should be better, and could easily be better.
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I think kids should be taught farming, and about farming too.
(And Classics and Philosophy, which my generation skipped but the kids today like them.)
But, at the end of the day, do they want to become farmers?
When I see what my farming friends have to go though I am glad that their children are studying something different.
(And Classics and Philosophy, which my generation skipped but the kids today like them.)
But, at the end of the day, do they want to become farmers?
When I see what my farming friends have to go though I am glad that their children are studying something different.
Blimey... that is quite an answer.
As I said earlier in the post, I grew up on a farm and worked on other farms, and I can honestly say that what you've written sounds like something a London journalist would write after being tasked with investigating where farming subsidies are going... but, I appreciate that it is your perception of the situation and more importantly, your opinion on what is wrong with modern farming.
What I would say though is that your argument isn't very well thought through. On one hand you want to tell kids that farming is full of mental illness, suicide, substance abuse and industrial injuries, yet on the other hand you want farmers to be forced to do lots of environmental work on top of what they're doing now, presumably for no money.
What do you think causes the mental illness, suicides and substance abuses?
Maybe I don't type quite the way I think.
The Farmers would stand on their heads and drink a glass of water, if that is what the subsidy system required of them. They are only reacting to what they need to do to survive. If they were paid to maintain a thriving ecology, they would. Clearly, food production is a priority, but in some places, the amount of food produced is simply not worth the environmental damage. The subsidies could be put towards developing a good, thriving ecology, that would benefit everybody in the country, and not just benefiting the farmer.
It wasn't that long ago that where I live, and the surrounding area had significant amounts of broadleaf, native forest. Imagine that, miles upon miles of it. It was all pushed out after the WWII. Now most the forest is conifers, dead underneath, with nowt but rabbits and grey squirrels living in it.
There used to be trees, upto, errr, the tree line, and heather on the commons. Now there is Bracken. (Not on all, I grant you, some still has heather)
And for what? A few sheep?
Besides where it is not worth farming, there is still the issue of unnecessary pollution, that is causing irreparable damage. This is the only country we have, we're killing it, and the taxpayer is funding it. It's wrong, pure and simple.
I can't even imagine why they are so deranged. Research by various different bodies into suicides suggests isolation, financial worries, a tendency to bottle things up and not discuss issues that are troubling them, and so on. Chemical poisoning gets mentioned too.
What I have seen is young lads, when I was a young lad, who were driving round in Daddys brand new truck, looking the kiddies, while the non farming folk made do with a cheap car. Now, Daddy still owns the truck, except young man is now a middle aged man. Non farmer owns his own truck. Don't look quite as clever now, so ends hitting the bottle, hitting someone else, or becomes a recluse, till something snaps. Or a variation thereof. I've seen that up and down this parish multiple times.
So I suppose I can imagine it........
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Oh my... so the extent of your experience is seeing some farmers doing well back in the day, then when they hit financial hardships, gloating as they descend into mental illness and alcoholism?
Just so you know, the waterways 'polluted' by farmers are already policed... its called the Environment Agency, and any dangerous chemicals found in the water... hefty fine. Those subsidies that are making the farmers rich and fat, try running a farm on them. And as far as the whole sheep problem... George Monboit should never be referred to as an authority on anything outside Westminster village.
http://new.spectator.co.uk/2013/06/meet-the-greatest-threat-to-our-countryside-sheep/
Don't believe everything written by a two-bit hack with about as much experience of the country as I have of the overpriced restaurants that parasite inhabits every week looking for his next pay cheque.
As for the comment on the forests of long ago and what they are now, if you're seriously blaming that on farmers, there really is little else to discuss.
Sorry to be so blunt, and I am really trying not to be argumentative, but your views on the farming community are misinformed and bordering on deranged. Your last paragraph shows this in stereo.
Sorry, you have clearly missed my point. Maybe I don't express myself all that well. I was born and bred here, and I've watched this happen. This is not misinformed, this is 30 plus years of experience, it's seeing what is. Some can see it, some can't, I know that, and don't take issue with those who can't see it.
Part of the reason it is allowed to carry on is the reaction it gets from those who can't, or won't understand. I know what I'm putting myself up for when I say what I say, and so do others who understand, and they keep their mouths shut because of it.
Part of the reason it is allowed to carry on is the reaction it gets from those who can't, or won't understand. I know what I'm putting myself up for when I say what I say, and so do others who understand, and they keep their mouths shut because of it.
I really haven't missed your point. And you really have expressed yourself well, but whether you're born and bred in an area or not, you've obviously watched from the outside.
30 years has taught you that the overpaid farmers who had it all while others locally had to make do are now suffering mental breakdowns and alcoholism. For some reason you've missed the cause and effect because you've been too busy reading what researchers had to say on the matter, rather than wandering up to a farmer and asking whether they needed some help. Remember 20 years ago before the advent of the big supermarkets, when farmers got paid for the work they did? They worked hard and long hours, and reaped the rewards so they could buy a new truck?
The argument of 'those who can't or won't understand' only works when the premise of the argument is accurate and more importantly, true.
There are a few reasons farmers are suicidal, drinking too much or in the case of a good friend of mine, literally killing himself using pain killers. His income is in tatters, he has massive bills (including having to pay tax in advance of it being due) and his long suffering wife has decided she can't take it any more. A lot is do with having a steady income, some of it is the constant interference from the authorities, but in my non-expert opinion, I reckon he's getting to the point of suicide because he was brought up to believe that hard work paid.... he works hard, but doesn't get paid.
Again, I don't mean to be argumentative, nor do I mean to insult, but really... unless you've got anything to add other than speculation based on childhood prejudice and adult gloating, may I suggest laying off the George Monboit and trying to speak to some of your local farmers? Maybe that isolation problem you were talking about could be solved by them not feeling so isolated from their community? Just an idea.
30 years has taught you that the overpaid farmers who had it all while others locally had to make do are now suffering mental breakdowns and alcoholism. For some reason you've missed the cause and effect because you've been too busy reading what researchers had to say on the matter, rather than wandering up to a farmer and asking whether they needed some help. Remember 20 years ago before the advent of the big supermarkets, when farmers got paid for the work they did? They worked hard and long hours, and reaped the rewards so they could buy a new truck?
The argument of 'those who can't or won't understand' only works when the premise of the argument is accurate and more importantly, true.
There are a few reasons farmers are suicidal, drinking too much or in the case of a good friend of mine, literally killing himself using pain killers. His income is in tatters, he has massive bills (including having to pay tax in advance of it being due) and his long suffering wife has decided she can't take it any more. A lot is do with having a steady income, some of it is the constant interference from the authorities, but in my non-expert opinion, I reckon he's getting to the point of suicide because he was brought up to believe that hard work paid.... he works hard, but doesn't get paid.
Again, I don't mean to be argumentative, nor do I mean to insult, but really... unless you've got anything to add other than speculation based on childhood prejudice and adult gloating, may I suggest laying off the George Monboit and trying to speak to some of your local farmers? Maybe that isolation problem you were talking about could be solved by them not feeling so isolated from their community? Just an idea.
I've understood quite clearly what you've written, and I agree with the majority of what you've said; it agrees to a great extent with my own observations over the last 50 years or so in this neck of the woods.
I've restrained myself from joining in this thread more fully because I can't write what I'd need to say without getting political, but one thing is abundantly clear to me; we can't carry on as we are and we need to do whatever is required to enthuse and train young people of quality to step up and do the right thing, and to respect and reward them for doing the right thing.
We don't seem to be very adept at this kind of thing, do we?
