That's a lot of tar! Figure just one of those barrels looked like it'd hold at least 5 gallons. 35 of those is beaucoup bunches! I bet it smelled great, too!
Stockholm Tar w/ Mikko Snellman
- Thread starter VaughnT
- Start date
It's like most organic solvents -smell so good but are oh so bad for youThe smell of tarry twine is tied so tightly to my childhood that even yet a whiff of it and I'm looking around for my Dad.
I like the true resins, the real tars, the pure ones that aren't adulterated with heaven knows what.
I love those smells, those real tree grown extracts. Like wood shavings, somehow subliminally, or atavistically, appealing.
Now though, so many of them are 'contraindicated' and classed as toxic and harmful to aquatic environments.
True enough that they preserve wood, fibre, leather, etc., but they do so by killing the buggits that devour them.
Creosote for fences is now supposed to only be allowed to agricultural use and then with great care.
My creosoted fences have lasted fifty years and are still sound, while the newer ones painted with modern 'long lasting protective' paints, fell apart after ten
Stockholm tar's Data sheet is very clear about 'potential' harm, and it's normal uses.
This link is the Irish one.
I assumed you did, but also that you like me weren't used to the term itself. It's not called Stockholm tar in Sweden either, as far as I know anyway. Instead it's named after the production method usually.Believe me, I do know pine tar, you don´t have to teach a finn about that.
Have some at home.
We have here in my country pine tar soap, pine tar icecream, throat lozenges with pine tar, pine tar schnaps etc etc. All kind of stuff with pine tar added as a fragrance or as spice.
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Makes me chuckle to think it's famous around the world as Stockholm Tar, but folks that live in and around Stockholm have never heard of it! 
Still, call it what we will, it's a great product and more folks in the bushcraft world need to learn about all the good it can do them.
Still, call it what we will, it's a great product and more folks in the bushcraft world need to learn about all the good it can do them.
I found an old article that says that from a stacked m³ of proper pine one gets 25-35 l of tar and some turpentine if that is collected.
Norwegian. I think he said that from 20 m3 of the pine wood from the old stumps they would get about 5 barrels of tar. According to wikipedia, in Norway a barrel of tar was 116 litres, so that's 580 L in total, or 29 L/m3.Yea, I wouldn't trust the data sheets and that kinda jive. It's like how everything on this side of the pond comes with a warning "Might contain ingredients California believes cause cancer"
Stockholm Tar works wonders and is pretty economical, but some company wanted to boost their own product so they lobbied to get ST labeled as possible toxic or whatever.
If pine tar wasn't so expensive, I'd use it a lot more than I do. As it is, I have to cut it pretty hard with mineral spirts, turpentine or the like, because I want to stretch it out a quart as much as possible.
I found a short video where a guy compared his own brew with some commercially available stuff and the Tenda brand I just bought is about as gold/amber as what he made himself. The Bickmore and Davey's is the darker/black version I like for rope and seizing just because that's what I grew up seeing on the Tall Ships in movies and such. The Tenda is going to be good for woodworking, but I don't think it'll add much that warm tone I like so much. It makes my cotton rope look a bit blah because it's such a light brown.
Tar Comparison
It's a good video, though, just because it gives you a little bit of an idea before you jump in with your cash. The Bickmore and Davey's brands are as dark as you could want and also 100% pine tar, but the little changes in how it's rendered seem to make a difference. Maybe it's just that Bickmore is made from pines that come from warmer climes or are a different species? Maybe there's something about pines and spruces that grow in Finland and Sweden that makes the tar you get from them just a little bit better?
You're a lucky gent! Mikko's right up there in your neck of the woods, too.
I really like that "Finn Fid" he invented. Way better than the Swedish Fids I've used and such a genius little idea. I'm getting one of his traveling fids or spikes as soon as I can make it happen.
Found this video in my research. I have no idea what they're saying, but it's a joy to see just how complex a task it is to get the tar out of the wood. Does it ever say how many gallons or barrels they get from that stack? It sure looks like a gob!
Tar Stack
Or is that in Swedish?
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@VaughnT
"Yea, I wouldn't trust the data sheets and that kinda jive. It's like how everything on this side of the pond comes with a warning "Might contain ingredients California believes cause cancer"
I think you are mistaken about the Data Sheets,
The Data Sheets are the basic information on every product and are trusted as truthful and unbiased. Everybody from Industry to environmental health, from water treatment to air quality deals with those.
Pine tar is good stuff, but like most purified 'organic' resins we need to be aware that it's not always good for us, or the environment. If it protects, it kills something that would otherwise destroy the fibres.
I work with the public. Those Data sheets are critical to the risk assessments that I have to fill in for every single event. £5million public liability is necessary to work with the public and those who employ folks like me expect us to have that cover. That necessitates us to list every potential harm and it's likelihood. So, if a substance has a Data Sheet that says, "Harmful to aquatic enviroments", I pay heed, and if the Data Sheet says, "Avoid skin contact, known to cause dermatitis", I make damned sure that either folks know they're safe with it, or I don't let them handle it.
And, I've never been in California, we live in the UK, and while our Data Sheets are pretty much still EU compliant, even the British ones are pretty thorough.
Do I use it ? yes, I do It's good stuff, but it's not gold, iimmc ?
M
"Yea, I wouldn't trust the data sheets and that kinda jive. It's like how everything on this side of the pond comes with a warning "Might contain ingredients California believes cause cancer"
I think you are mistaken about the Data Sheets,
The Data Sheets are the basic information on every product and are trusted as truthful and unbiased. Everybody from Industry to environmental health, from water treatment to air quality deals with those.
Pine tar is good stuff, but like most purified 'organic' resins we need to be aware that it's not always good for us, or the environment. If it protects, it kills something that would otherwise destroy the fibres.
I work with the public. Those Data sheets are critical to the risk assessments that I have to fill in for every single event. £5million public liability is necessary to work with the public and those who employ folks like me expect us to have that cover. That necessitates us to list every potential harm and it's likelihood. So, if a substance has a Data Sheet that says, "Harmful to aquatic enviroments", I pay heed, and if the Data Sheet says, "Avoid skin contact, known to cause dermatitis", I make damned sure that either folks know they're safe with it, or I don't let them handle it.
And, I've never been in California, we live in the UK, and while our Data Sheets are pretty much still EU compliant, even the British ones are pretty thorough.
Do I use it ? yes, I do
It's good stuff, but it's not gold, iimmc ?M
My work involves a lot of chemicals at times and I would definitely trust the hazards that are on the safety data sheets. I would however not assume that all hazards are necessarily known about for a given chemical, especially if it's a newer thing. For instance, anything that stains or interacts with DNA, I'm going to treat with care and attention regardless of what it says on the label. We normally follow basic good laboratory practice anyway, which gives a decent amount of general protection, but it's easy to not be as careful when in the field, or indeed at home.@VaughnT
"Yea, I wouldn't trust the data sheets and that kinda jive. It's like how everything on this side of the pond comes with a warning "Might contain ingredients California believes cause cancer"
I think you are mistaken about the Data Sheets,
The Data Sheets are the basic information on every product and are trusted as truthful and unbiased. Everybody from Industry to environmental health, from water treatment to air quality deals with those.
Pine tar is good stuff, but like most purified 'organic' resins we need to be aware that it's not always good for us, or the environment. If it protects, it kills something that would otherwise destroy the fibres.
I work with the public. Those Data sheets are critical to the risk assessments that I have to fill in for every single event. £5million public liability is necessary to work with the public and those who employ folks like me expect us to have that cover. That necessitates us to list every potential harm and it's likelihood. So, if a substance has a Data Sheet that says, "Harmful to aquatic enviroments", I pay heed, and if the Data Sheet says, "Avoid skin contact, known to cause dermatitis", I make damned sure that either folks know they're safe with it, or I don't let them handle it.
And, I've never been in California, we live in the UK, and while our Data Sheets are pretty much still EU compliant, even the British ones are pretty thorough.
Do I use it ? yes, I do
M
One thing to keep in mind when reading safety data sheets is the volumes involved and how/if that affects the risk. The SDS for 40% ethanol is scary reading at first, then seems ridiculous (I mean ordinary vodka is about 40%) but then you have to consider that the SDS need to take into account people working with big barrels or even huge tanks of ethanol. The same goes for many common gases, like CO2 or O2.
Of course, for other chemicals, even the smallest amount can do serious harm and should be handled with care and attention.
Yea, but because something is trusted doesn't mean it's accurate or without bias. It wouldn't be the first time a company was able to lobby for this or that simply because it gave them an edge on the competition. Corruption or CYA stuff is as old as time.
Even reading the label on the pine tar I have here, it says not for humans and all that... but it's a main ingredient in soaps for humans. I've heard people worried about skin aggravation by it... but I've been fairly covered in the stuff and never had even a hint of a skin issue. As noted above, in Sweden, Finland and places like that, they actually use it as a flavoring for things. I'll admit that's kind of weird because the last thing I think I'd want as a flavoring is a bit of pine taste. Still, people drink gin and that's about as nasty as I could imagine.
In the end, I have to go with my gut. I wouldn't suggest someone drink it, sure, but using it around the homestead like it's been used for a thousand years? Is it bad for the environment? As SaraR points out, concentrations are the key.
I just brought it up because it's something, at least over here, that bushcraft folks have almost no knowledge of. I'm finding there are a ton of things from the nautical realm that would benefit the bushcraft and blacksmith worlds, so I'm trying to bridge that gap where I can. I appreciate you bringing up the safety aspect.
When we make soap with pine tar, we use tiny tiny quantities. See SaraR's post above; that's very relevant.
The same with ointments meant for topical use.
Pine tar is good stuff, but so is petroleum.....only millions of years seperate them really.....both are 'effective' natural substances.
I grew up in the wee boatyards that lined the Clyde and sea lochs. I honestly love the old fashioned wood and tars and ropes and canvases that were such an intrinsic part of my childhood
I would still rather reach for the beeswax and turpentine and make stuff to clean than I would buy a spray can of branded anything.
I'm not daft about it though, I know that the substances we extract, that we use, can be harmful if used without forethought, and I'm aware that branding and hyperbole advertising of the latest great thing greatly limits the worldview of the natural materials.
Traditional use of traditional materials gets a lot of respect among bushcrafting folks
The same with ointments meant for topical use.
Pine tar is good stuff, but so is petroleum.....only millions of years seperate them really.....both are 'effective' natural substances.
I grew up in the wee boatyards that lined the Clyde and sea lochs. I honestly love the old fashioned wood and tars and ropes and canvases that were such an intrinsic part of my childhood
I would still rather reach for the beeswax and turpentine and make stuff to clean than I would buy a spray can of branded anything.
I'm not daft about it though, I know that the substances we extract, that we use, can be harmful if used without forethought, and I'm aware that branding and hyperbole advertising of the latest great thing greatly limits the worldview of the natural materials.
Traditional use of traditional materials gets a lot of respect among bushcrafting folks
People used a lot of nasty chemicals in the past...these days we are more aware, and more careful.
But...
Wasnt there a chemist who said that to handle Sodium Chloride in the lab, required precautions for Chlorine gas and Sodium metal, whereas in a cafe all you needed was a salt shaker?
But...
Wasnt there a chemist who said that to handle Sodium Chloride in the lab, required precautions for Chlorine gas and Sodium metal, whereas in a cafe all you needed was a salt shaker?
I don't know if soap can be made directly from tar, depends if the fatty acids wood contains survive the dry distillation. Soap is made from pine oil that is a by product of cellulose making.
To handle NaCl in the lab, you need to not eat it, not drink it, not inhale it and not rub it in your eyes, wipe up any spills and dispose of it appropriately. And wash your hands afterwards.
Unless of course you're handle it in such a way that it can react and form something not so nice. Chemists get up to all sorts of weird stuff, so it might be pushing it past the limit in terms of temperature or mixing it with other chemicals and then it could perhaps react and turn into something not so benign.
My husband was a Science teacher. I taught my infant sons about common chemicals by labelling everything. The salt jar still says Na+Cl- on it
I got that, that was just me thinking aloud on the screen. I knew there are free fatty acids in wood but not if they survive the processing.
Somewhere, I have a book called something like, "Fats, Oils and Waxes". I know I stashed it in beside the Household Chemicals stuff, but I need to tidy out that drawer 
I'm pretty sure there was a bit on tars, turpentines and pinene extractions too. It's been a while since I read it.
I know that for the old pine tar soap that the proportions worked out that the pine tar was between 1 and 2% of the final mixture, so it's not used as a base.
If anyone is really interested in these old recipes, then there's a brilliant book called,
Manufacturers' Practical Recipes, Edited by G.S. Ranshaw.
Mine is dated 1948, and it has everything from soaps and ointments, to uses for whale oil. How to prep and refine oils and waxes, etc., to mixes for fireworks.
Very dated, if you want modern chemicals, I doubt there's a single hydrogenated whatsit anywhere in the book, but excellent if you want to work from first principles or just understand the how and why.
There's one copy for sale on Amazon just now, at a very good price
I'm pretty sure there was a bit on tars, turpentines and pinene extractions too. It's been a while since I read it.
I know that for the old pine tar soap that the proportions worked out that the pine tar was between 1 and 2% of the final mixture, so it's not used as a base.
If anyone is really interested in these old recipes, then there's a brilliant book called,
Manufacturers' Practical Recipes, Edited by G.S. Ranshaw.
Mine is dated 1948, and it has everything from soaps and ointments, to uses for whale oil. How to prep and refine oils and waxes, etc., to mixes for fireworks.
Very dated, if you want modern chemicals, I doubt there's a single hydrogenated whatsit anywhere in the book, but excellent if you want to work from first principles or just understand the how and why.
There's one copy for sale on Amazon just now, at a very good price
Manufacturers' Practical Recipes: Comprising Processes and Recipes for the Manufacture of Commodities Used in All the Industries, Arts, and Professions: Amazon.co.uk: G. S. Ranshaw: Books
Buy Manufacturers' Practical Recipes: Comprising Processes and Recipes for the Manufacture of Commodities Used in All the Industries, Arts, and Professions by G. S. Ranshaw (ISBN: ) from Amazon's Book Store. Everyday low prices and free delivery on eligible orders.
www.amazon.co.uk
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