Sophistry regarding bivvying
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I have heavily modded this thread.
I did so because some of the removed posts were tacitly encouraging an illegal activity. When those references were removed other posts made no sense.
I understand the frustrations, but BcUK cannot be seen to condone or encourage illegal camping, etc.,
There are real issues for others when they try to obtain legal permission to use land.
Please help to keep the thread on topic, and your assistance and courtesy is appreciated.
atb,
Toddy
I did so because some of the removed posts were tacitly encouraging an illegal activity. When those references were removed other posts made no sense.
I understand the frustrations, but BcUK cannot be seen to condone or encourage illegal camping, etc.,
There are real issues for others when they try to obtain legal permission to use land.
Please help to keep the thread on topic, and your assistance and courtesy is appreciated.
atb,
Toddy
Tengu said:
The only thing you can do is discuss it with the owner of the land.
If you are polite and reasonable and explain what you intend to,you might just persuade them.
T
tonymac
Guest
is it illigal within national park areas, the old rule on dartmoor at least regarding camping was, if you cannot be seen from the mainroad then you are ok, I still use this rule am I breaking the law? has this law been put here to try and stop inexperianced idiots setting fire to our landscape or is it another access issue.
tonymac said:
Almost invariably a damage/danger issue.
There are some REAL idiots about and if the land owners don't know you,how are they to know that you aren't one of 'em
Add to that the fact that if you are seen to be lighting a fire then the numpty is going to think it's alright to do so as well;only not in as skilled and controlled way.
Wild camping is not allowed in the national parks either, but the general rule is that if you're well out of the way and can't be seen from a road or path, you're only there for a night or two and you don't do any damage (like lighting a real fire!!!), then the wardens won't hassle you.
Anywhere else, get the landowner's permission or recognize you are breaking the law - which has possible legal consequences for you and will b****r up the chances of the rest of us getting the landowner's agreement to camping!
Anywhere else, get the landowner's permission or recognize you are breaking the law - which has possible legal consequences for you and will b****r up the chances of the rest of us getting the landowner's agreement to camping!
I'm a National Park Voluntary Ranger here in Northumberland and i'm pretty sure the rules are just the same in the park as outside it. Northumberland national Park only actaully owns about 1.2% of land within the park - as with most of the National Parks a lot of the land is still farmland and its in private ownership.
I would therefore still be recomending asking for the landowners permission.
I would therefore still be recomending asking for the landowners permission.
you can camp legally on some of the long distance paths in the UK. Like on the Icknield path. For the obvious reason, that you may get stuck at night in the middle of no-where and not to have the necessary to sleep in the warm, you can well take to court somebody because he forbids you to do obvious thing.
What the situation if I get lost somewhere and very sensibly I bring my bivvy? I am breaking the law if I do not freeze to death?
Is getting lost in the dark a crime? Is trying not to freeze a crime?
Or should have asked to the owner before getting lost...
As usual, blanket laws (stopping something in every occasion) are stupid.... off course they should not be broken. but they should be contested and discussed!
What the situation if I get lost somewhere and very sensibly I bring my bivvy? I am breaking the law if I do not freeze to death?
Is getting lost in the dark a crime? Is trying not to freeze a crime?
Or should have asked to the owner before getting lost...
As usual, blanket laws (stopping something in every occasion) are stupid.... off course they should not be broken. but they should be contested and discussed!
tonymac said:
when in the UK there was a big fire? It rains no stop!!!!!
I do not believe there is a neither a special corps for forest fires (as you find in Europe and US). The reason is that there is no need for it!
I find the sight of fires very ugly, and I would stop the people only for that reason. But I do not believe that there is such a problem to large fires (like in other countries anyway!)
If you enter land against the wishes of the landowner, or if you stray outside an area to which you are allowed access, or if you use land in a way which you are not authorised to do, you become a trespasser. Ignorance of that fact is no defence under this law.
Any person can enter a public place, because the landowners permit it. However, this does not make a permanent right of access, and therefore it is within the power of the landowner to ask any person to leave, assuming they do not have some other lawful reason to be there. The landowner does not have to give a reason. If the person does not go immediately, by the shortest practical route, then they are trespassing. Despite the well known sign "Trespassers will be Prosecuted" trespass is not a criminal offence, and trespassers cannot usually be prosecuted. They can, however, be sued. There is little chance of such a matter ever being so serious as to be worth suing over, and so this rarely happens.
People in a park will often protest (if asked to leave) that it is public land. However the ownership of the land is not relevant. Even if the land is owned by a public body, such as the local council, this does not mean necessarily that they have a right to be on it at all times - they do not. If the place closes at a certain time and a visitor remains after that time, they can then be considered to be trespassing. If a visitor misbehaves at any time and refuses to leave when asked to do so by someone with a right to do so (usually the landowner or a representative) then the visitor could becomes a trespasser because they no longer have the landowner's permission to be there, even if they entered legally.
http://www.naturenet.net/law/common.html
It's some time since I did my law degree, but if memory serves me correctly, it is not a criminal offence. HOWEVER causing any damage (an be careful as some farmers can be very canny!) can result in a criminal prosecution.
The police can only really become involved if there are more than a few people in one place or criminal damage has occured. Unless they are really anal!
Any person can enter a public place, because the landowners permit it. However, this does not make a permanent right of access, and therefore it is within the power of the landowner to ask any person to leave, assuming they do not have some other lawful reason to be there. The landowner does not have to give a reason. If the person does not go immediately, by the shortest practical route, then they are trespassing. Despite the well known sign "Trespassers will be Prosecuted" trespass is not a criminal offence, and trespassers cannot usually be prosecuted. They can, however, be sued. There is little chance of such a matter ever being so serious as to be worth suing over, and so this rarely happens.
People in a park will often protest (if asked to leave) that it is public land. However the ownership of the land is not relevant. Even if the land is owned by a public body, such as the local council, this does not mean necessarily that they have a right to be on it at all times - they do not. If the place closes at a certain time and a visitor remains after that time, they can then be considered to be trespassing. If a visitor misbehaves at any time and refuses to leave when asked to do so by someone with a right to do so (usually the landowner or a representative) then the visitor could becomes a trespasser because they no longer have the landowner's permission to be there, even if they entered legally.
http://www.naturenet.net/law/common.html
It's some time since I did my law degree, but if memory serves me correctly, it is not a criminal offence. HOWEVER causing any damage (an be careful as some farmers can be very canny!) can result in a criminal prosecution.
The police can only really become involved if there are more than a few people in one place or criminal damage has occured. Unless they are really anal!
Mauro said:
I have had to alert authorities and help to fight underground peat fires in wilderness areas twice in the past.
On our local moors I call the brigade in two or three times a year because of grass and forest fires started by numpties.
I wild camp a lot where it is allowed but I always observe local fire regulations and use a stove if a fire is inappropriate.
If you ignore these regulations then you are impacting upon the landscape and part of the problem.
I have lost count of the amount of fire places I have found and tried to erase. Of course there is the damage also done by idiots cutting live wood for fires and don't even get me started on why these oxygen thieves think that beer cans burn.....
I have posted re stealth camping before and it's irritations.
We are finding more evidence of supposed 'stealth' camps and still bear the scars of fire damage.
The Landowners whose Forests I look after are disturbed that this is going on and I had to explain recently that this seemed to be a nationwide problem and not caused by them allowing 'Bushcraft' activities in a specific area.
I know that before the 'B' word became fashionable we still had this problem but there is now a focus.
From personal experience and promotion of local Moots by people such as Jason Sears and the Bucks Bushcraft Group of which I have a link, I hope the positive side will always outweigh the small negative.
There will always be a few people who steath camp and do it without anyone knowing they have been there, it's those who just go for the beery, firey jaunt who seem to end up occasionally burning the woodland and surrounding countryside. We still have notices and a series of four 8'x4' paintings showing this made to be displayed at the Royal Show in 1963 .
With our climate changing to wet winters and dry summers the potential fire risk seems to be much greater.
Swyn.
We are finding more evidence of supposed 'stealth' camps and still bear the scars of fire damage.
The Landowners whose Forests I look after are disturbed that this is going on and I had to explain recently that this seemed to be a nationwide problem and not caused by them allowing 'Bushcraft' activities in a specific area.
I know that before the 'B' word became fashionable we still had this problem but there is now a focus.
From personal experience and promotion of local Moots by people such as Jason Sears and the Bucks Bushcraft Group of which I have a link, I hope the positive side will always outweigh the small negative.
There will always be a few people who steath camp and do it without anyone knowing they have been there, it's those who just go for the beery, firey jaunt who seem to end up occasionally burning the woodland and surrounding countryside. We still have notices and a series of four 8'x4' paintings showing this made to be displayed at the Royal Show in 1963 .
With our climate changing to wet winters and dry summers the potential fire risk seems to be much greater.
Swyn.
I think there is a big difference between :-
'Oh my God, what do I do now?'
and
'I'll just camp here.'
On a hike in Wicklow, we had to put a tent up to get someone out of the rain. Simply survival.
Speak to the land owners, and only use private land. The whole point of the National Parks is to preserve the enviroment. I think, if you are on Forestry comession land, they do you, so their must be a problem of some sort. The only reason we do not have the big fires is because we have not got the big forests, but we also have trees that take hundreds of years to grow.
'Oh my God, what do I do now?'
and
'I'll just camp here.'
On a hike in Wicklow, we had to put a tent up to get someone out of the rain. Simply survival.
Speak to the land owners, and only use private land. The whole point of the National Parks is to preserve the enviroment. I think, if you are on Forestry comession land, they do you, so their must be a problem of some sort. The only reason we do not have the big fires is because we have not got the big forests, but we also have trees that take hundreds of years to grow.
Canford Heath in Dorset goes up with monotonous regularity.as do some parts of the New Forest.Mauro said:
When they do they disrupt travel through the counties of Hampshire and Dorset,wipe out lots of rare wildlife unique to the area (mainly reptiles that cant run away) and endanger the lives of the firecrews that have to try to stop it.
The fires are usually started deliberately by brainless scrotes that dont think through the possible conseqences of lighting fires near or on heathland.
Our local bit of heathland goes up on a regular basis too . Shame as there is a high percentage of our countrys sand lizards there .
If you are in a "survival" situation i think bivvying and lighting a fire is acceptable , But in this country you are not likely to be far enough away from civilisation for it to be considered nessesary .
Having served in the army and stealth camped as a kid , i know it can be done .
The thing is quite a few people on here (including myself) have lost permissions for lands because of content about illegal camping on here . Permission can be as hard to get as access for shooting . One thing worth pointing out is that if you are found on land without permission , chances are you will have an axe and knife on you , That could easily be taken as armed tresspass !! Ask around and find yourself a piece of land you can get permission for . Nothing like a wood you know you can go to anytime
Pumbaa
If you are in a "survival" situation i think bivvying and lighting a fire is acceptable , But in this country you are not likely to be far enough away from civilisation for it to be considered nessesary .
Having served in the army and stealth camped as a kid , i know it can be done .
The thing is quite a few people on here (including myself) have lost permissions for lands because of content about illegal camping on here . Permission can be as hard to get as access for shooting . One thing worth pointing out is that if you are found on land without permission , chances are you will have an axe and knife on you , That could easily be taken as armed tresspass !! Ask around and find yourself a piece of land you can get permission for . Nothing like a wood you know you can go to anytime
Pumbaa
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