Send your contacting information with a PM and I will see what I can do.
Some thoughts on selecting clothing for subarctic climate
- Thread starter Martti
- Start date
-
Hey Guest, Early bird pricing on the Summer Moot (29th July - 10th August) available until April 6th, we'd love you to come. PLEASE CLICK HERE to early bird price and get more information.
Send your contacting information with a PM and I will see what I can do.
Finnish Defence Forces started to develop a rain poncho after the experiences gained during the Continuation War. They compared three different designs, a triangular and two rectangular ones, against each other in field tests during year 1953. A thick rectangular poncho was found to be the best model. The development led to the current model which is made out of PVC coated polyester. According to the 1980s blueprints I have, the dimensions for this model are 2460 by 1600 mm.
I have had the privilege to use this model during my conscription time and I can vouch for its waterproofness outside the poncho but not inside as it does not breath that well and you are bound to sweat a little. The good thing is that the cape (has to) folds to around 10 by 8 cm. Each side of the poncho has ten snap fasteners so it doubles as shelter half.
I have had the privilege to use this model during my conscription time and I can vouch for its waterproofness outside the poncho but not inside as it does not breath that well and you are bound to sweat a little. The good thing is that the cape (has to) folds to around 10 by 8 cm. Each side of the poncho has ten snap fasteners so it doubles as shelter half.
Last edited:
Recently I have tried to compare various cold-weather clothing systems to see what they have in common in order to improve my previously presented traditional system. George Mallory used c. 2.9 clo wool, silk and cotton system during his 1924 Everest expedition, while Finnish m/65 wool field uniform with m/62 cotton trousers and jacket was 3.1 clo and newer m/91 cotton and polyester system 3.0 clo. The heavy-weight fur system used by Amundsen in Antarctica had a calculated value of 4.9 clo for comparison.
According to single booklet with a reference to a larger study, traditional Sámi fur clothing system corresponds to 3.6 clo but I'm unclear what clothing items does it include. According to the Finnish literature, 3.9 clo is needed without wind, temperature being -31.1°C and with methabolic rate of 2 MET or 116 W/m². As you might remember from my earlier post, this corresponds to walking 3.2 km/h. At the same temperature only 1.8 clo is needed with 4 MET or 232 W/m². This is equivalent to walking 4 km/h in snow or skiing faster than average speed.
When looking these numbers it is quite clear to me that around 3.0 clo is good for almost any year or any place in Fennoscandinavia as temperatures of -40°C or lower are encountered only once or very few times a year in any country of that region. Any reasonable priced or fitted system will not protect you from the lower temperatures if you are standing still. If you are traditional purist like me, the hands can be a problem as Finnish tests have shown that for longer periods of time in these temperatures the only solution is fur or fur imitation made out of natural materials.
There are few clothing items that have surprisingly good clo value for their weight and size. For example midweight wool undergarment trousers worn over long underwear but under the trousers can have a value of 0.2 clo and a good wool sweater 0.37 clo (thick wool overcoat only improves total clo by 0.49). Thus investing to these single items you can greatly improve the clo value for your system.
According to single booklet with a reference to a larger study, traditional Sámi fur clothing system corresponds to 3.6 clo but I'm unclear what clothing items does it include. According to the Finnish literature, 3.9 clo is needed without wind, temperature being -31.1°C and with methabolic rate of 2 MET or 116 W/m². As you might remember from my earlier post, this corresponds to walking 3.2 km/h. At the same temperature only 1.8 clo is needed with 4 MET or 232 W/m². This is equivalent to walking 4 km/h in snow or skiing faster than average speed.
When looking these numbers it is quite clear to me that around 3.0 clo is good for almost any year or any place in Fennoscandinavia as temperatures of -40°C or lower are encountered only once or very few times a year in any country of that region. Any reasonable priced or fitted system will not protect you from the lower temperatures if you are standing still. If you are traditional purist like me, the hands can be a problem as Finnish tests have shown that for longer periods of time in these temperatures the only solution is fur or fur imitation made out of natural materials.
There are few clothing items that have surprisingly good clo value for their weight and size. For example midweight wool undergarment trousers worn over long underwear but under the trousers can have a value of 0.2 clo and a good wool sweater 0.37 clo (thick wool overcoat only improves total clo by 0.49). Thus investing to these single items you can greatly improve the clo value for your system.
This has been an amazing thread. Thank you everyone for putting it together. I've learned a lot.
It is perhaps a bit off topic, but I have been reading some books on early 20th century cold weather explorers, and put together some lists of their clothing. Here I have the list of clothing for Nansen, Amundsen, Scott and mallory: http://woodtrekker.blogspot.com/2011/12/early-20th-century-cold-weather.html and here I have info on some comparison tests between the different clothing options: http://woodtrekker.blogspot.com/2011/12/comparison-between-modern-and-early.html I hope the info is of some use.
It is perhaps a bit off topic, but I have been reading some books on early 20th century cold weather explorers, and put together some lists of their clothing. Here I have the list of clothing for Nansen, Amundsen, Scott and mallory: http://woodtrekker.blogspot.com/2011/12/early-20th-century-cold-weather.html and here I have info on some comparison tests between the different clothing options: http://woodtrekker.blogspot.com/2011/12/comparison-between-modern-and-early.html I hope the info is of some use.
I have a question;
what kind of skis would I need in and around the Scandinavian forrests?
I looked for forrest- or huntingski's, These are shorter and wider than regular ski's, but they come in different sizes and I understand that it has something to do with your own height. I'm 1,70mtr, do I need longer or shorter ones?
Or should I look at normal ski's?
what kind of skis would I need in and around the Scandinavian forrests?
I looked for forrest- or huntingski's, These are shorter and wider than regular ski's, but they come in different sizes and I understand that it has something to do with your own height. I'm 1,70mtr, do I need longer or shorter ones?
Or should I look at normal ski's?
It has nothing to do with your height but instead your weight, the higher the weight, the bigger surface area is needed to ski comfortably.
Hunting and forest skis are shorter and wider and has a larger surface area then normal ski's because in the forest there is a lot of trees that makes the snow uneasy(don't now how to explain that, it's different from skiing on a field) and makes less room to make a turn on.
I see you have moved to Sweden now Ron W, you made a good choice, the snow this year is much better then the two before
, last year it was 40cm snow in the forest but all powder making me 85kg light with 10x220cm ski's ski on the ground...
Last edited:
Some more info
A Google translated page about an old man that makes skis and saying that skis should be 3m long thus making my former comment on ski length invalid http://translate.google.se/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=sv&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.polarisen.se%2Fkulturen%2Fskidor%2Fen-skidtillverkare
A google translated page about a skogsskider (forrest skis) search I made in a hiking forum
http://translate.google.se/translat...w.utsidan.se/forum/search.php?searchid=393339
A Google translated page about an old man that makes skis and saying that skis should be 3m long thus making my former comment on ski length invalid http://translate.google.se/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=sv&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.polarisen.se%2Fkulturen%2Fskidor%2Fen-skidtillverkare
A google translated page about a skogsskider (forrest skis) search I made in a hiking forum
http://translate.google.se/translat...w.utsidan.se/forum/search.php?searchid=393339
Last edited:
Hej Kotteman,
snow?? what snow?? You could hardly mean the 3-5cm we have here now??
Thanks for the replies. Unfortunately both links in your second post do not work. Can you post the original ones?
This way i can learn about skis and the Swedish language...
snow?? what snow?? You could hardly mean the 3-5cm we have here now??
Thanks for the replies. Unfortunately both links in your second post do not work. Can you post the original ones?
This way i can learn about skis and the Swedish language...
The first one worked for me but not the second one naturally, did not think that one trough last night... Here is a link to the forum itself it's about turskidåkning (hiking with skis in Eng) http://www.utsidan.se/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=35
No snow!? that must mean that you live in the south part, here in the north the last 3days it's been snowing about 30-40cm. But that also means that it was a bad year for you to come, last year the south part did get the best and most snow...
No snow!? that must mean that you live in the south part, here in the north the last 3days it's been snowing about 30-40cm. But that also means that it was a bad year for you to come, last year the south part did get the best and most snow...
A summary with photographs of the current Finnish Defence Forces m/05 winter uniform can be read behind the link. It is in Finnish but I will be more than happy to translate the parts you're interested in.
http://www.fimnet.fi/cl/laakaripaivat2007/311/1050_Peitso_Ari.pdf
- Page 7. Snow suit. 70% polyester, 30% cotton. Waterproof.
- Page 8. Winter parka and trousers. 70% polyester, 30% cotton. To be used when stationary.
- Page 9. Balaclava. 100% polyester. Equipped with slots for eyeglasses.
- Page 10. Liner gloves. 70% polyester, 30% cotton.
- Page 11. Gloves. Waterproof leather. Used when temperature ranges from +5 to -5°C.
- Page 12. Winter mittens. Waterproof leather. To be used with liner mittens (see below).
- Page 13. Liner mittens with trigger finger. 100% wool, back 100% polyester with PC coating. 0 to -35°C.
- Page 14. Winter rubber boots. 100% rubber with 100% polyester lining.
- Page 15. Winter boot liners. 85% wool, 15% polyamide.
http://www.fimnet.fi/cl/laakaripaivat2007/311/1050_Peitso_Ari.pdf
- Page 7. Snow suit. 70% polyester, 30% cotton. Waterproof.
- Page 8. Winter parka and trousers. 70% polyester, 30% cotton. To be used when stationary.
- Page 9. Balaclava. 100% polyester. Equipped with slots for eyeglasses.
- Page 10. Liner gloves. 70% polyester, 30% cotton.
- Page 11. Gloves. Waterproof leather. Used when temperature ranges from +5 to -5°C.
- Page 12. Winter mittens. Waterproof leather. To be used with liner mittens (see below).
- Page 13. Liner mittens with trigger finger. 100% wool, back 100% polyester with PC coating. 0 to -35°C.
- Page 14. Winter rubber boots. 100% rubber with 100% polyester lining.
- Page 15. Winter boot liners. 85% wool, 15% polyamide.
Marti, very useful, thanks for posting it. Are you aware of any online suppliers in Finland where I could order any of this kit from?
Thanks
Barry
The FDF will not probably allow the manufacturers to sell any of items with m/05 camouflage before the end of the patent time, i.e. year 2016 or after. However much of the items do not have the camouflage and are allowed to be sold to the civilian markets. There are also many similar products on the markets.
FDF combat boots M05
FDF insoles M05
FDF combat socks M05
Finnish mitten inserts, unissued (not m/05 but similar earlier ones)
Finnish mittens m/91, leather, unissued
Has anyone employed both knitted and woven undergarments in the field? There was a small schism between different factions of the Finnish Defence Forces during the 1930s on should the units use knitted or woven underwear made out of the same material. Some argued that woven were better as they were more durable and left still air between the layers but other said the knitted were more comfortable. What's you oppinion on this matter?
I can't say that I have to be honest.
I tend to just use normal cotton underwear with merino base layer over the top, then on the torso another merino mid-layer, with either a nice woollen jumper, or shirt depending on how cold it is, with a final jacket over the top.
I would have thought however that the finer locking on a weave would be less an irritation than a courser weave on a knitted item, but it would be dependant on the material used, and are we talking hand knitted or machine ?
That is what the Finnish forces used during the Wars down to -40°C/F. However it is good to notice that they were wearing flannel underwear made out of cotton or linen with thicker knitted wool mid-layer on top of it. Material is not everything, it is also the weave and finishing.
I've not really used knitted stuff for underwear before but I have used the Woolpower looped type stuff which is similar and been very impressed.
Generally I use fine merino as a base layer which although it is technically a "jersey" type material, is so fine it acts more like a woven layer.
Generally I use fine merino as a base layer which although it is technically a "jersey" type material, is so fine it acts more like a woven layer.
Similar threads
