can anyone help with the thatching side of building a shelter. i have constucted a group shelter like the one ray mears does but as yet have not thatched it. it is in a wood with a variety of trees and could thus thatch with beech and oak leaves or ever green foliage. which woud be the most water proof as the pitch is about 35 degrees and to me it looks like it will leak with any of these two. any suggestions. cheers leigh
shelter building
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Last time i thatched a very small shelter it was autumn. Lots of wet leaves about. Took us about 3 hours, but after had a completely waterproof shelter. We just piled up leaves and then kept adding layers.
Oh, and welcome to BCUK, enjoy mate! :biggthump
Oh, and welcome to BCUK, enjoy mate! :biggthump
Traditionaly a thatched roof was made of straw or water reeds that were hollow. They were layed in such a way as to channel the water off of the roof..... a thatched roof tends to be about 45 degrees though.
Personally I have used leaf debris as mentioned above, turf/earth, bracken/ferns, heather and straw. Not sure how waterproof they would be on a group shelter as you described though.... the angle may be a bit shallow to get the water to run off quickly enough, not sure though... keep us posted how you get on :biggthump
Welcome to BCUK :wave:
Ed
Personally I have used leaf debris as mentioned above, turf/earth, bracken/ferns, heather and straw. Not sure how waterproof they would be on a group shelter as you described though.... the angle may be a bit shallow to get the water to run off quickly enough, not sure though... keep us posted how you get on :biggthump
Welcome to BCUK :wave:
Ed
reduce the amount of holes through to the inside with branches, bracken or any other matter that will cover a good area, then pile the mulch on, leaves, more leaves, more leaves and ......more. Don't skimp on the mulch, it needs to be thick and it needs to cover the whole thing, well except for the doorway and the hole in the top 
After you've got it all covered put some branches on to help keep it in place and if you've got time leave it to settle a bit (day or two.....or more) this will allow the bugs etc to drop out and the mulch to settle, then you can add more Get a fire going in it, that will help get it all dried out.
To be honest you can build it and get straight in and you'll love it but if you've got time and all that!! Are you building beds in it as well or sleeping on the floor? These sorts of shelters are fantastic, warm, waterproof....home from home :biggthump
You may be able to change the angle to get it steeper using the mulch, it's worth a try, start at the bottom and work your way up
After you've got it all covered put some branches on to help keep it in place and if you've got time leave it to settle a bit (day or two.....or more) this will allow the bugs etc to drop out and the mulch to settle, then you can add more Get a fire going in it, that will help get it all dried out.To be honest you can build it and get straight in and you'll love it but if you've got time and all that!! Are you building beds in it as well or sleeping on the floor? These sorts of shelters are fantastic, warm, waterproof....home from home :biggthump
You may be able to change the angle to get it steeper using the mulch, it's worth a try, start at the bottom and work your way up
If you have loads of leaves then a debris shelter is the way to go. But you need LOTS of leaves. Bugs are a problem so if you can get a smudge fire going then that will evict them pretty quick.
Also, if you are leaving it (especially if you are going to leave kit in it), make sure you can find it again as they can be really tricky to see (especially at night).
Also, if you are leaving it (especially if you are going to leave kit in it), make sure you can find it again as they can be really tricky to see (especially at night).
if you are going to cover it in multch/leaf litter it needs to be of a depth the same as the length of you arm between your hand and elbow to be totaly water proof 
ack:
ack:ChrisKavanaugh
Need to contact Admin...
This suggestion is not for purists, born again Druids whistling Jethro Tull's SONG OF THE WOODS or Luddites fleeing manufactured materials with little resemblance to anything in nature (me.) You have your basic shelter frame assembled. Take out one ( or more) of the infamous space blankets or a small tarp and drape them first. Now add your leafs, peat preserved romano-british textiles with coins bearing Hadrian's profile, rushes etc. This eliminates the problem of beasties dropping in for a visit. With space blankets, any fire increases efficiency from reflected heat. ack:
ack:
A lot of the knack of waterproofing a shelter comes from positioning it well - try to position the shelter so that the shelter wall is not facing straight into the rain, but rather that any rainfall will hit it at an angle - if it does this, you will get more water bouncing off, and there will be less need for a heavier layer of branches/leaves/mulch etc. The same goes for your vertical angle - the steeper is it, the more deflection you will get, or at least the more internal run-off you will get (water hits the shelter and tends to run in the direction it is already travelling - if the shelter is quite parallel to the ground, the rain will go through, if it is more perpendicular, it will run down the shelter walls to the ground).
Using natural shelter is also the most important part of choosing where to place your shelter. Dense tree coverage, rocky overhangs/caves, fallen trees etc all give good starting points for shelter, and minimise the effort needed to collect enough materials to make your shelter waterproof.
Another approach that isn't often mentioned is to create a shelter with reasonable cover, but then to line the inside of the shelter, preferably with an inch or so gap between the outer and inner layers. You need a lot less coverage to protect against gently dripping/running water than you do against the force of water falling from the sky at speed, and the outer layer should reduce/deflect the force of the approaching rain.)
Saying that - your best bet overall is a good basha/bivy/tent! But beggar can't be choosers!
Using natural shelter is also the most important part of choosing where to place your shelter. Dense tree coverage, rocky overhangs/caves, fallen trees etc all give good starting points for shelter, and minimise the effort needed to collect enough materials to make your shelter waterproof.
Another approach that isn't often mentioned is to create a shelter with reasonable cover, but then to line the inside of the shelter, preferably with an inch or so gap between the outer and inner layers. You need a lot less coverage to protect against gently dripping/running water than you do against the force of water falling from the sky at speed, and the outer layer should reduce/deflect the force of the approaching rain.)
Saying that - your best bet overall is a good basha/bivy/tent! But beggar can't be choosers!
Waterproofing a natural shelter needs you to do two things,
Firstly, your walls should be at the correct shed angle - this is 45 degrees for rain and 60 degrees for snow.
Secondly, thatch with anything handy bracken, branches, moss or leaf mould but the over all thickness of your thatching should be roughly elbow deep to shed rain and shoulder deep to properly insulate in cold conditions. But with thatching its a case of the more the merrier - and remember your thatch will settle and need topping up once in a while too.
Take that in to consideration when building and you wont go far wrong. Fires, bed ect should also be planned before building starts and as pointed out a good (the best possible) site should also be selected before you begin work.
Firstly, your walls should be at the correct shed angle - this is 45 degrees for rain and 60 degrees for snow.
Secondly, thatch with anything handy bracken, branches, moss or leaf mould but the over all thickness of your thatching should be roughly elbow deep to shed rain and shoulder deep to properly insulate in cold conditions. But with thatching its a case of the more the merrier - and remember your thatch will settle and need topping up once in a while too.
Take that in to consideration when building and you wont go far wrong. Fires, bed ect should also be planned before building starts and as pointed out a good (the best possible) site should also be selected before you begin work.
Gary has it spot on there. Site location is probably THE most important factor to consider first.
One thing I have found in mixed woodland is to put down a layer of fir branches as the first layer of thatch, which stops bits falling thru, then leaves, more fir, more leaves etc finishing with fir as its quite water repellent and sheds the rain nicely.
One thing I have found in mixed woodland is to put down a layer of fir branches as the first layer of thatch, which stops bits falling thru, then leaves, more fir, more leaves etc finishing with fir as its quite water repellent and sheds the rain nicely.
Like the others said, If you've only done the framework, steepen the anle now for better runoff and then start thatching till the holes are smaller than fist sized and finally pile on your leaf litter good and deep. Light a real smoky fire as your first one to drive out the beasties and then you're ready for good times ):
Chris...What's wrong with 'songs from the wood' :shock:
Let me bring you songs from the wood:
to make you feel much better than you could know.
Dust you down from tip to toe.
Show you how the garden grows.
Hold you steady as you go.
Join the chorus if you can:
it'll make of you an honest man.
Let me bring you love from the field:
poppies red and roses filled with summer rain.
To heal the wound and still the pain
that threatens again and again
as you drag down every lover's lane.
Life's long celebration's here.
I'll toast you all in penny cheer.
Let me bring you all things refined:
galliards and lute songs served in chilling ale.
Greetings well met fellow, hail!
I am the wind to fill your sail.
I am the cross to take your nail:
A singer of these ageless times.
With kitchen prose and gutter rhymes.
Songs from the wood make you feel much better.
:super:
): Chris...What's wrong with 'songs from the wood' :shock:
Let me bring you songs from the wood:
to make you feel much better than you could know.
Dust you down from tip to toe.
Show you how the garden grows.
Hold you steady as you go.
Join the chorus if you can:
it'll make of you an honest man.
Let me bring you love from the field:
poppies red and roses filled with summer rain.
To heal the wound and still the pain
that threatens again and again
as you drag down every lover's lane.
Life's long celebration's here.
I'll toast you all in penny cheer.
Let me bring you all things refined:
galliards and lute songs served in chilling ale.
Greetings well met fellow, hail!
I am the wind to fill your sail.
I am the cross to take your nail:
A singer of these ageless times.
With kitchen prose and gutter rhymes.
Songs from the wood make you feel much better.
:super:
One point to remember is make sure that the uprights and ridge poles are strong enough to take the weight of the shelter, it will increase the wetter it gets also when stacking the leaning posts, try and keep them as close as possible this will stop debris falling in to the shelter. I always compress the first layer to ensure that there are no gaps in the thatch.
Frogo
Frogo
ChrisKavanaugh
Need to contact Admin...
the problem with using greenstuff as thatching is that it tends to dry out and curl up and shrink to nothing. but good for covering gaps to pile loads of leaf litter onto.
there're some photo's of a couple of group shelters here.
http://www.outdoors-magazine.com/s_article.php?id_article=124
cheers, and.
there're some photo's of a couple of group shelters here.
http://www.outdoors-magazine.com/s_article.php?id_article=124
cheers, and.
Here's me in the shelter a friend and I built last time we were up the woods:
(That there is the first fire I ever started with sparks, by the way!)
They say that you should learn from your mistakes and I sure learnt a lot from building this! That design is certainly not a style I'll choose again... unless I fancy being woken up at two o'clock in the morning absolutely freezing in a sodden sleeping bag with rain dripping onto my face again, that is! The thatching was of dead ferns as this was all that seems available in that woods in the middle of winter and although, at about 8 inches thick, we thought it would suffice, this thatching proved to be woefully inadequate against that night's heavy downpour. Also, the round-tree design was, in hindsight, a grave error as although of the evergreen treetop provided us with a little extra shelter (as intended), the tree negated any benefit by acting as a gulley and chanelling water down its trunk and onto our kit!
Learn from my mistakes, people; I sure hope to do so myself!
(That there is the first fire I ever started with sparks, by the way!)
They say that you should learn from your mistakes and I sure learnt a lot from building this! That design is certainly not a style I'll choose again... unless I fancy being woken up at two o'clock in the morning absolutely freezing in a sodden sleeping bag with rain dripping onto my face again, that is! The thatching was of dead ferns as this was all that seems available in that woods in the middle of winter and although, at about 8 inches thick, we thought it would suffice, this thatching proved to be woefully inadequate against that night's heavy downpour. Also, the round-tree design was, in hindsight, a grave error as although of the evergreen treetop provided us with a little extra shelter (as intended), the tree negated any benefit by acting as a gulley and chanelling water down its trunk and onto our kit!
Learn from my mistakes, people; I sure hope to do so myself!
tomtom said:if you are going to cover it in multch/leaf litter it needs to be of a depth the same as the length of you arm between your hand and elbow to be totaly water proof
the more the better, the lower you make the celing(sp:roll
the warmer it will be, remember heat rises so it will just dissapear up in to your rafters if you make your shelter too high.. cold air sinks to the ground so make em low! Similar threads
