Preparing for troubled times ahead - Advice on what is needed.....

[sidpost]

And again, why would people want to become part of the problem instead of part of the solution ?

Millenia of human warfare and it's aftermath clearly shows that society re-established itself. Cities repair and repopulate.

Why not cut out the issue in the first place and just everyone calm down ?
We know that with good social structure that it worked in wartime, and it worked during plague, and there were no riots, no widespread wide scale destruction (well apart from enemy bombs, but even there folks pulled together and got on with things).

Why should it not work again ?

By all means discuss natural disaster, disease, power cuts, strikes and port blockages, high inflation, fuel shortages, etc., and how best to be prepared to deal with them.
That's relevant and of interest; but I think gang warfare, riots/ armed insurrection belong in Hollywood.

I would be happy if it was just a Hollywood thing. Unfortunately, it is much more than that.

If you want to stick your head in the sand and ignore what is going on, I wish you all the best.

In the USA, we have had large areas in major cities burned to the ground by BLM rioters in the past couple of years. Does anyone remember the Los Angeles riots of the past? Sure, LA recovered but, at what cost?

And, does anyone think taking Ukrainian wheat production out of the global marketplace is a non-event on food costs or the shortages in Africa? Sure, things are great if you have the oil reserves of the Mideast to buy what wheat is available in the global marketplace but, what about those not living on oil wealth? Food waste isn't the big issue in Africa it is in Europe or the USA so, so we don't feel the impact as directly with less waste but, it is there in the prices we pay which is a problem for many in society working fewer hours due to an economic slowdown. Aren't these "troubled times" for many who have limited options to move or pay for what they need?

 

[Toddy]

Ukrainians are a reasonable case study of what happens in "troubled times"!

You are right though as there is a real difference between high fuel costs and inflation and a larger civil breakdown like we see with what is happening in Ukraine with the loss of its wheat crop to feed Africa and parts of the Mideast.

Aye, indeed they are. We don't live in Ukraine though, and no one has invaded since WW11, and even then is was more us going over there, iimmc ?

The world is interconnected, which is why our goods and fuel are more expensive.
Still doesn't mean that we do the headless chicken/lemming thing and abandon homes and infrastructure and cause havoc elsewhere though.

Be part of the solution, don't add to the problem.

 

[Toddy]

I would be happy if it was just a Hollywood thing. Unfortunately, it is much more than that.

If you want to stick your head in the sand and ignore what is going on, I wish you all the best.

In the USA, we have had large areas in major cities burned to the ground by BLM rioters in the past couple of years. Does anyone remember the Los Angeles riots of the past? Sure, LA recovered but, at what cost?

And, does anyone think taking Ukrainian wheat production out of the global marketplace is a non-event on food costs or the shortages in Africa? Sure, things are great if you have the oil reserves of the Mideast to buy what wheat is available in the global marketplace but, what about those not living on oil wealth? Food waste isn't the big issue in Africa it is in Europe or the USA so, so we don't feel the impact as directly with less waste but, it is there in the prices we pay which is a problem for many in society working fewer hours due to an economic slowdown. Aren't these "troubled times" for many who have limited options to move or pay for what they need?

1) We don't live in the USA.

2) We are an urbanised nation. Our rural population is a very rich part of our heritage but our reality is that we are an urbanised nation. Our cities don't have ghettos. We do have poor areas, we do have areas of social deprivation, but even there access to public services is universal.

3) We always pay more here for goods because we're on islands. We import over seas. To us that's normal. Supply routes are not intercontinental, they are oceanic.
We need to push more for 'grown at home, i.e. in the UK, but that's something that ends up another issue because we're on North Atlantic islands....we don't get a lot of sun, we're not tropical....and what do we do for fuel for most of the year.

4) We don't have a gun culture.
One school massacre and every handgun in the country was questioned. Many were destroyed, licences were revoked. There were no riots, despite many owners being rightfully distressed at losing their property.
We don't love our guns more than we love our children.
We don't teach our children 'active shooter' drills for their classroom safety. Thank every blooming thing we don't need to.

5) We're used to public service advice. We're inclined to listen and pay heed rather than look for some weird qnonsense conspiracy.

By all means discuss practical things, good economy, how to save, grow, make, prepare a bit of a cushion against potential problems, deal with health concerns, (mind we have the NHS, which is under a huge burden just now, but it's still working, still free at point of use )
suggest how to manage with less of many things, but advice running away from home and bugging out to .....to where exactly ? because mind my earlier comment ? we're on islands here, we run out of land and it's either the Atlantic or the North sea and both are inclined to be inclement.

On that note; it's lovely here today, I'm away out to pull some over enthusiastic nettles and see about planting some peas

M

 

[sidpost]

Tribal thinking is ingrained somewhere in our biology. We are social beings and desire to belong to and be valued by our chosen groups. The problem is that in the age of the internet, a group can be a very abstract and global thing. And then you have certain players playing on our biological imperatives and sowing division between groups in a way that is rather silly.

I am not worried -at all- that there will be violence or trouble in local communities in case of logistical breakdowns or natural disasters. Time and time again we see that people are basically good and forthright and will help each other out where possible. It could be a little more dicey in the big cities where people are more tuned into the media.

Yes, these breakdown fantasies have their origin in cinema and the high drama of news broadcasts focusing 99% on negative news. Adopting this as reality means letting them tell you how to see the world. That's literally "bad news".

I had a personal case study in rural Alabama where I lived at the time. Tornadoes came through and wiped out everything for ~100-mile radius. With no electricity, the nuclear plant shut down and the lines were down, the water stopped flowing out of the taps or wells, gasoline ran out for home electric generators, and food spoiled in refrigerators and freezers.

My neighbors looked in on each other and we banned together to turn black looters away from each other's personal property.

When you haven't heard a car engine for two weeks, rolling up in a purple or green low rider with a very loud stereo unloading people, and throwing stuff in a car trunk was shockingly stupid and obvious.

I know this sounds racist to many but, it was what I PERSONALLY observed.

The country Sheriff announced on FM radio that he would not be responding to calls about looters being shot at and would not arrest or send deputies to interview anyone accused of killing a looter, in fairness they were really busy with other law enforcement actions. That stopped looters from driving in from out of state to "load up" on others' property and inflicting further misery on them.

 

[Tengu]

Your right Toddy.

Planning with the idea that your neighbours are your enemy is a great way to fail.

(What would have happened if the First Nations had united?)

 

[sidpost]

1) We don't live in the USA.

2) We are an urbanised nation. Our rural population is a very rich part of our heritage but our reality is that we are an urbanised nation. Our cities don't have ghettos. We do have poor areas, we do have areas of social deprivation, but even there access to public services is universal.

More equal UNIVERSAL access to effective education, trade schools, and medical care would be appreciated by many in the USA.

3) We always pay more here for goods because we're on islands. We import over seas. To us that's normal. Supply routes are not intercontinental, they are oceanic.
We need to push more for 'grown at home, i.e. in the UK, but that's something that ends up another issue because we're on North Atlantic islands....we don't get a lot of sun, we're not tropical....and what do we do for fuel for most of the year. With less land and being an Island, rural life is substantially different in the UK than in the USA. Still though, agriculture is a viable part of the UK is capable of providing a lot for the urban areas to consume.

The UK has a strong agriculture sector. If there weren't so many exports, I think the UK could be largely self-sustaining. My understanding is that the weather is warming in the UK allowing wine grapes to grow while in France, wine grapes aren't doing so well! With some Dutch agriculture imports, I would expect the UK region to do really well with various ocean and wind power solutions to power that industry. The British Empire ingrained a strong culture of imports and exports but, Island cultures are known to be self-sustaining in other parts of the world and I don't see why the UK could not be as well. Granted, the UK may not have the overall bounty and diversity of New Zealand, but it has a great agricultural culture throughout history that has served it well in the past.

Personally, I am a huge fan of the Classic British cattle breeds!

4) We don't have a gun culture.
One school massacre and every handgun in the country was questioned. Many were destroyed, licences were revoked. There were no riots, despite many owners being rightfully distressed at losing their property.
We don't love our guns more than we love our children.
We don't teach our children 'active shooter' drills for their classroom safety. Thank every blooming thing we don't need to.

The 2nd Amendment in our Bill of Rights was put there for a reason! Without guns, people still stab, club, and stone people to death in other parts of the world and even in the USA. The firearm is the tool, just like the knife but, is not the cause of the misuse IMHO.

No one wants a firearm in the hands of someone mentally disturbed or in the commission of a crime. There is a lot of press on "gun culture" in America but, a lot of it only looks at a subset of issues in isolation which I personally think tends to distort the issues but, draws more eyeballs to the media for higher revenue mainly through advertising.

I don't see anyone blaming cars for drunk driving deaths. Nor do I see anyone looking to ban cars except for really crazy ultra-liberal people at the farthest extremes of society. Nor do I blame the hammer maker that produced the hammer used to attack Paul Pelosi. I have heard no calls or banning hammer sales.

In "troubled times ahead", I will have my axe with me for fire-building reasons but, in a conflict, it could be pretty effective.

5) We're used to public service advice. We're inclined to listen and pay heed rather than look for some weird qnonsense conspiracy.

Unfortunately, there is a lot of 'social engineering' in the messages sent by various government groups and those within with various agendas which cause the majority of people here in the USA to largely ignore all messaging. In terms of political affiliation, I'm not a Democrat but I also don't listen to the Trump dog whistle. I look for the governance in the middle that lets the largest number of people do what they want as long as it doesn't harm others.

By all means discuss practical things, good economy, how to save, grow, make, prepare a bit of a cushion against potential problems, deal with health concerns, (mind we have the NHS, which is under a huge burden just now, but it's still working, still free at point of use )
suggest how to manage with less of many things, but advice running away from home and bugging out to .....to where exactly ? because mind my earlier comment ? we on islands here, we run out of land and it's either the Atlantic or the North sea and both are inclined to be inclement.

The Irish that fled the Potato famine might have different thoughts!

On that note; it's lovely here today, I'm away out to pull some over enthusiastic nettles and see about planting some peas

M

ENJOY your day outside! I'm growing out my Tilapia fish in my garage right now and, I'm setting up 2 breeding tanks for their off-spring and 2 others for Bluegill![/QUOTE]

 

[Toddy]

The potato famine afflicted both Ireland and parts of Scotland, and yes people suffered, people died, but the vast majority took the opportunity for economic migration and ran with it.
Stories grow. History is seen through the eyes of the stories.
They call Victoria the famine queen and despise her for it, but the Queen literally gave a fortune of her own available monies to buy and supply food, and that's not remembered in those stories. Nor are the efforts of others to feed people. No passports needed and a fall in population does not equate with numbers of dead, iimmc ?
The situation is not as straightforward as the stories would have us believe.

The realities are that both the Scottish and Irish who were afflicted were very rural populations, at a time when the Industrial Revolution was in full flight. The vast majority who left the rural got no further than the factories in the Scottish lowlands and the English midlands.
The Urban population just could not conceive of famine when their shops had plenty....but then they weren't the ones living only on potatoes. Any monoculture is subject to enormous issues of disease and pest attacks.
A healthy economy, of both finance and farming, is one with variety within it. When one strand fails, another is enough to support......much like the original intention I suspect of the advice asked for in this thread.

 

[sidpost]

In terms of "preparing for troubled times ahead", being able to keep your own stores is part of that so, I think that is where the talk about conflict and crimes comes into play.

On the other hand, you need something worth protecting from theft too!

For me, this means things like growing my own fish to eat. Tilapia aren't super tasty but, they grow fast and efficiently and soak up flavors well for any style or flavor of cooking you want to do. Personally, I want to add more oily fish to that for both variety, diversity, and health effects from good quality fish oil.

If I could figure out how to chill my water effectively, I would love to grow some Herring like I ate in the Netherlands! Those were like eating candy if you ask me, yes, they were really that good at the Saturday market!

Add a few chickens as well and many urban folks would be well set for healthy protein. Japanese Quail are good, even in an apartment!

Then, figure out some urban gardening for things you enjoy eating! Grandma in Germany always managed to grow lettuce over Winter which was a real head-scratcher for me!

In terms of clothing, sheep and similar animals are an option if you have room for them. However, I don't have a loom or anything else to make cloth. For housing, I could always make a log cabin if I needed to from the timber on my land. I can use wood for heat and my stove.

Really the only thing I can't do much about is taxes! The tax collector won't accept eggs, milk, or fish for payment.

 

[sidpost]

The potato famine afflicted both Ireland and parts of Scotland, and yes people suffered, people died, but the vast majority took the opportunity for economic migration and ran with it.
Stories grow. History is seen through the eyes of the stories.
They call Victoria the famine queen and despise her for it, but the Queen literally gave a fortune of her own available monies to buy and supply food, and that's not remembered in those stories. Nor are the efforts of others to feed people. No passports needed and a fall in population does not equate with numbers of dead, iimmc ?
The situation is not as straightforward as the stories would have us believe.

The realities are that both the Scottish and Irish who were afflicted were very rural populations, at a time when the Industrial Revolution was in full flight. The vast majority who left the rural got no further than the factories in the Scottish lowlands and the English midlands.
The Urban population just could not conceive of famine when their shops had plenty....but then they weren't the ones living only on potatoes. Any monoculture is subject to enormous issues of disease and pest attacks.
A healthy economy, of both finance and farming, is one with variety within it. When one strand fails, another is enough to support......much like the original intention I suspect of the advice asked for in this thread.

Great points about diversity and things left out of the history books.

However, in "troubled times", migration is what we see in significant numbers today. Yes, there are many economic refugees but, there are also many fleeing for their lives either due to famine or oppressive governments, either recognized or imposed by terror groups, and war.

Regarding mono-culture, I imply avoiding that with almost all posts on related subjects. Hemophilia in the royal families of Europe is one instance of recommending some genetic diversity. I tend to think racial mixing among families is a generally good thing but, that involves a lot of covert racism for most people and they would never marry outside of their own "clan". The collapse of Honeybees in North America is largely a result of "mono-culture" IMHO since commercial bees are limited to a very small number of strains. While not a fan of Africanized bees or "hot hives" in general, they have been some of my most productive hives, with that "hot one" at my house being a real problem to work but, boy did it reap the honey!

 

[Toddy]

There's a funny thing the anthropologists tell us about humanity.
Cousin marriage is common, and humanity would not exist without it.
Why ? because the origins are in small gene pools. The origins are in families.

Traditional cultures marry/breed in or out of their moiety where consanguinity was considered normal, but there were often strict, 'who can with who', social structures.

Breeding out is a good thing, but wasn't always possible. Doesn't necessarily make for unhealthy offspring.
At this point it's perhaps worth noting that cousin marriages are legal in the UK while America has states where that is proscribed.
Cultural difference.

The haemophilia that developed in Victoria's family appears to have disappeared.
"No living member of the present or past reigning dynasties of Europe is known to have symptoms of haemophilia or is believed to carry the gene for it".

Genetics are funny things with some surprising results. Humanity is a very, very wide cline, that can breed successfully right across the world, regardless of 'race', 'colour' or consanguinity.

 

[sidpost]

Yes, these breakdown fantasies have their origin in cinema and the high drama of news broadcasts focusing 99% on negative news. Adopting this as reality means letting them tell you how to see the world. That's literally "bad news".

I live in Texas close enough to the Border crisis to see some of this not as a fantasy but, as a reality. It is easy for people in positions of power to put forth a message about everything being blown out of perspective and being an agenda from uncaring mentally disturbed people on the far right but, it is hard to convince people who experience the event personally when they don't speak the truth these same people see with their own eyes.

 

[sidpost]

There's a funny thing the anthropologists tell us about humanity.
Cousin marriage is common, and humanity would not exist without it.
Why ? because the origins are in small gene pools. The origins are in families.

This was long ago in the past when our ancestors were hunter-gathers living in small communities without frequent contact with others. Small gene pools have allowed genetic markers and in some cases, genetic defects, to be passed on to large population groups.

Traditional cultures marry/breed in or out of their moiety where consanguinity was considered normal, but there were often strict, 'who can with who', social structures.

This isn't the dark ages where we live under the heavy foot of some entitled group dictating who we can socialize with or marry and who we can't. Today, I could marry a Muslim, Catholic, Protestant, Buddhist, or Sikh if I wanted. I could likewise marry someone of any skin color I wanted or even gender in many parts of the world.

Breeding out is a good thing, but wasn't always possible. Doesn't necessarily make for unhealthy offspring.
At this point it's perhaps worth noting that cousin marriages are legal in the UK while America has states where that is proscribed.
Cultural difference.

There is a point where the likelihood of passing on recessive genetic disorders becomes more likely and that is where a lot of the problem is not so much with the two individuals involved but, the attributes passed on to children from that union. Even if a brother or sister were to have a child, there is no guarantee a bad genetic outcome would occur but, the likelihood increases significantly over two people from a diverse and more distant connection.

The haemophilia that developed in Victoria's family appears to have disappeared.
"No living member of the present or past reigning dynasties of Europe is known to have symptoms of haemophilia or is believed to carry the gene for it".

That is because intermarriage became less of an issue over time. Heck today, you have a Hollywood actress as a mother with a relationship by marriage to the British Monarch. I'm no expert, or even reasonably knowledgeable about the royal family but, unions like that bring a brand new genetic background to the royal family line. Who in Queen Victoria's history was the individual that brought a genetic fix to the Hemophilia problem is a mystery to me but, it is likely similar to this, not some "first cousin" because it is all about genetics.

Natural propagation rules apply to people just like they do all living things in life. If you get a bad plant or livestock offspring, you just destroy them and move on. With elevated members of society, that doesn't happen so you end up with examples that would not make it to maturity in nature. In the past, bad unions among our ancestors died out because their offspring were not successful enough to reproduce. Today with heavy social support, children and adults with similar outcomes today don't suffer the ravages of our ancient ancestors so, they generally don't die out at a young age before they could reproduce.

Genetics are funny things with some surprising results. Humanity is a very, very wide cline, that can breed successfully right across the world, regardless of 'race', 'colour' or consanguinity.

Absolutely! This is true of several species as well. This has led to all sorts of livestock that work much better in modern livestock production too!

With diverse people marrying and raising children, you also get a breakdown of social barriers frequently and wonderful integrations of different cultures into the social fabric of others.

In 'troubled times ahead', I see the marriage integrations with children being a real favorable outcome that strengthen society as a whole. Ukrainian widows and young girls in grade school today will eventually resettle in other parts of the world and provide a richness to those communities and societies. Ukraine itself will recover when the Russians leave as well or, they will vanish as the result of Russian occupation while absorbing the Ukrainians into the larger Russian gene pool.

 

[C_Claycomb]

After some discussion, it is felt that this thread has run its course.

This forum was started in part as a place where folk could talk bushcraft in a time when other similar forums were heavily weighted to survivalism and preparing for societal breakdown. It was intended that folk who wanted to discuss such preparation would be politely told to do so on other forums. This was particularly true for folk from across the Atlantic whose situation and world view are often different enough in these matters to clash rather noticeably with the culture in the UK.

This thread was allowed as an outlet and to help folk here, predominantly in the UK.

Maybe today, after the happenings of the last few years, the concerns about preparing for such breakdowns are more widespread and demonstrably more real. However of late this thread has been going in a direction that is not in keeping with its original intent, or the intent and aim of this forum.