Long range elk shot with .243 Win (Warning: Graphic)

[widu13]

Just to clarify; my comments referred to the Heart/Lungs shot, which is also my chosen target area. To give you an idea of how much movement can be made in 1 - 1.5 secs from just natural movement, look at the hind that moves out from in front of the target hind.

For the non shooters, there was also the fact that depending on the amount of powder in the round the sights had to be adjusted for a 4-5 foot drop in trajectory during the bullets flight time.

 

[widu13]

Long range shots are as much due to the nature of the game hunted as it is to the terrain (cover) I don't care how good you are, you ain't getting closer than at least 200 yards from an antelope out west. further for prairie dogs. Long range shots unethical? Next you'll be telling me it's unethical to shoot deer running from the dogs. Both are part and parcel of the sheer fun of hunting.

Winter before last I watched my grandson place a near perfect chest shot with my 30-06 on a large white tail deer at under 40 yards. He went down immediately and we waited on the stand (hide) for about a half hour hoping for a second one to pass. (he almost got a shot at a coyote that had been following the deer but it spooked) When went down to retrieve the buck, he leapt up and bolted as if he'd just woken up.

Good hits with solid calibers up close still aren't a guarantee of "instant" kills. I don't sweat over them. I don't understand the obsession with "instant" kills (certainly not a requisite for coon hunting where you shake the coon out of the tree for the dogs) As long as I can retrieve the meat (if meat's the purpose of the hunt) the trophy (if a trophy's the purpose) the fur (if profit's the purpose) or just insure eradication of unwanted species.

Distance has nothing to do with it as long as any miss (due to the animal moving or the shooters aim) is minimised to negate the resulted suffering. i.e. A shot on a running animal I don't take issue with if there is the opportunity to take a fast follow up shot. That's okay with say an AR10 platform but far trickier with a bolt action. I'm sure that you don't mean it's okay to wound an animal and leave it suffering because it has run away.

As I said before this is for sport, if I were shooting for (genuine) subsistence living then any shot that slows the animal before killing it is justified in my opinion, but wounding it because you are unable to kill it with the first shot in sport shooting is just not right.

 

[santaman2000]

I think you're largely correct Snappingturtle. Air rifles are beginning to be thought more and more as a training step here. In my childhood they were only regarded as kids' toys and largely still are in rural areas.

Regarding loving to walk (and combining that with hunting) you'd love quail hunting or night coon hunting.

 

[santaman2000]

Distance has nothing to do with it as long as any miss (due to the animal moving or the shooters aim) is minimised to negate the resulted suffering. i.e. A shot on a running animal I don't take issue with if there is the opportunity to take a fast follow up shot. That's okay with say an AR10 platform but far trickier with a bolt action. I'm sure that you don't mean it's okay to wound an animal and leave it suffering because it has run away.

As I said before this is for sport, if I were shooting for (genuine) subsistence living then any shot that slows the animal before killing it is justified in my opinion, but wounding it because you are unable to kill it with the first shot in sport shooting is just not right.

I appreciate your comment on follow up shots. I have hunted with a bolt action and didn't have a problem. That said, I prefer to save the bolt action specifically for those long range shots and (when hunting in front of dogs) use another type action such as a lever action (my first deer was shot with a Winchester model 94) or a pump action (either a rifle or a 12 gauge) or one such as my current deer rifle (the same one I mentioned my grandson using) a Remington semi automatic model 74 in 30-06

Do I mind leaving a wounded animal? Yes, but I'm not squeamish enough to lose sleep over it. Do I depend on one shot kills? Not at all. I don't even restrict my kills to shooting. I also hunt coons with dogs at night and no gun and I've ran a trapline. None of those result in instant kills. Nor is that any prerequisite to ethics.

 

[Klenchblaize]

Stalking for deer is the territory of the British Gentleman....

What a load of longhorn excrement!

K

 

[Janne]

Nah, a post made with a smile on my face!

With an ounce of truth, no?


Stalking/hunting for large animals is unusual across Europe ( exists in any other country? I do not know!). Sitting and waiting beside a trail, or sitting and letting dogs bring it is more standard.

I never did any hunting with dogs, only sitting and waiting.
Usually in an open area, like where timber was harvested, or an open stretch of a forest road.

Hence no great distances.

 

[snappingturtle]

I wonder if what crafts each of us as hunters is due to are introduction to it and the tools to hand, the ethics laid down to me was quite strict, mainly you shot for the pot ether for you or to pass on and for air guns a second shot was not really an option so you would move to take an assured shot or you pass, I guess having something wounded and going to ground or other wise was pressed on me as not acceptable, please don't feel I'm making any judgement I'm not, the philosophy was that all things have there place as much as we do, we are predators with an empathy and will, we give, we take, some times things need to be balanced by are action or by taking none. I don't think we can call right or wrong on this its more what each of us can live with, I can only speak for me what do you guys think?

 

[Janne]

Only kill what you eat. Kill quickly, or if first shot bad, take a second shot from a distance ( approaching the wounded animal is very stressing and generates extra fear) to finally kill.

Only do 'easy' shots.
Never kill for a 'trophy'.

Rules beaten into my mind by my dad. Quite a few more, but those are the most important ones imho.

 

[santaman2000]

I wonder if what crafts each of us as hunters is due to are introduction to it and the tools to hand, the ethics laid down to me was quite strict, mainly you shot for the pot ether for you or to pass on and for air guns a second shot was not really an option so you would move to take an assured shot or you pass, I guess having something wounded and going to ground or other wise was pressed on me as not acceptable, please don't feel I'm making any judgement I'm not, the philosophy was that all things have there place as much as we do, we are predators with an empathy and will, we give, we take, some times things need to be balanced by are action or by taking none. I don't think we can call right or wrong on this its more what each of us can live with, I can only speak for me what do you guys think?

Absolutely down to the way we were raised. Legend has it that Davy Crockett learned his marksmanship skills as a boy because his father taught him by only allowing him to take a single bullet and powder charge hunting. He either came home with something for the pot or was sent to bed without his supper. (we still hunt with muzzle loaders and reloading them for a "follow=up shot isn't possible anyway --- only the ability to hunt a second animal)

Only kill what you eat. Kill quickly, or if first shot bad, take a second shot from a distance ( approaching the wounded animal is very stressing and generates extra fear) to finally kill.

Only do 'easy' shots.
Never kill for a 'trophy'.

Rules beaten into my mind by my dad. Quite a few more, but those are the most important ones imho.

I was taught to kill venomous snakes on sight. Not for the pot or for a trophy but using either is acceptable, We never ate the coons we killed (nor the rats) but we did sell the pelts for profit. Trophy hunting (or fishing) is quite acceptable and primary for many people. Profit hunting/trapping is also quite acceptable and likewise a primary motivation for many people. As is meat hunting. But the reality will always be I hunt for the sheer joy of it; everything else is just a bonus. The "rules" Daddy, my uncles, cousins, school mates, and pretty much everybody I grew up with knew by instinct.

 

[snappingturtle]

I like that story about Crockett! Santaman, I'm sure if true he learned to shoot well fast! Interesting that muskets are still consider, are we talking mainly cap an ball or flintlock? Ps like your Remington! never shot anything like that only bolt action and martini henry (dropping block) 22 LR paper punchers.

 

[huntersforge]

Not really a fan of long range showing off on live quarry to be honest. Also the .243 has lost a hell of a lot of its energy by the time it’s got out to that distance.
If you tried a shot at that distance with a uk stalking guide you would be marched off the hill quick style

 

[Janne]

Santaman, kiling ‘vermin’ is fully justified, but I thought only about game.
Killing venomous snakes? Unless living close to your house and endangering your children, I see no reason.
They have a niche to fill.

I would not kill a Polar Bear for the trophy, but I would not hesitate I felt danger.

 

[santaman2000]

I like that story about Crockett! Santaman, I'm sure if true he learned to shoot well fast! Interesting that muskets are still consider, are we talking mainly cap an ball or flintlock? Ps like your Remington! never shot anything like that only bolt action and martini henry (dropping block) 22 LR paper punchers.

Most any type of historical muzzle loader can be found in a hunter's hands today but by far the most common now-a-days has little resemblance to the historical ones. Some of us still enjoy historical muzzle loaders; I have a cap and ball Hawken replica and a cap and ball 44 caliber revolver and I want a percussion double barred shotgun (among others) but for most hunters it's just a way to hunt in the additional season reserved for muzzle loader. So they go for modern, "in line" muzzle loaders with telescopic sights and

I lifted the picture of the Remington off the internet but it's exactly like mine. I need to mount another scope on it; the cheap Bushnell I had since 1989 finally failed and we (my grandson and I) have both used it with only the iron sights (sighting over the still attached scope mounts)

 

[mrostov]

One state, last I checked it was Pennsylvania, required a flintlock to be used during primitive firearms season. Mississippi went the other way and allowed cartridge weapons of 19th Century design. So, suddenly the H&R Handi-Rifle became very popular there.

In the USA guns designed specifically to only be a muzzleloader are not a federally regulated firearm and have no paperwork required to purchase. You can even buy one online and have it shipped to your home. This also applies to cap and ball revolvers.

Modern style inlines are very popular for hunting during 'primitive' firearms seasons (originally started by Buckskinners and intended for traditional style muzzleloaders).

Modern inlines use a striker firing system and a 209 shotgun primer. They are usually muzzleloaded with formed, bore diameter pellets of blackpowder substitute and a modern handgun bullet in a sabot. The rifling on these guns is designed for such loads. The rifling twist rate for a conical bullet is much faster than for a round ball. The firing chambers at the base of the barrel on these rifles are also optimized for pellet charges.

Many still hunt with a more traditional style of muzzleloader, but a growing number of those that use percussion caps are being converted to a style of nipple that uses 209 primer ignition. The 209 primers are easier to get hold hold of and the ignition system is more weatherproof.

Some still make their own old style percussion caps out of aluminum beverage cans (there are tools out there specifically made for this). They prime them with various methods, such as the roll caps for children's cap guns. You can buy mix it yourself priming compound, such as from that outfit that makes the kit to reload .22LR rimfire cartridges.

Since US shipment and storage laws these days classify blackpowder as an explosive but blackpowder substitutes as a propellant, like smokeless, real blackpowder is hard to find in stock, expensive to ship, and some jurisdictions only allow you to have about 2 pounds or so in your house. Hence, most people these days use a blackpowder substitute like Pyrodex, instead of real blackpowder - IF they use loose powder at all instead of pre-formed load pellets.

One company, Savage, periodically turns out small numbers of inline muzzleloaders, the Savage 10ML series, that are designed to use either blackpowder or smokeless shotgun powder. It's the only commercially produced inline that can use smokeless. One small company makes inline muzzleloader barrels for the H&R Handi-Rifle and TC Encore that use smokeless shotgun powder.

Mossberg sells an inline barrel that converts your Mossberg 500 shotgun into a .50cal muzzleloading rifle.

For Bushcrafters here in the states, who are very fond of the H&R single shot break open shotguns (Topper, Handi-Rifle, Pardner), you can get a drop in adapter for 12ga break open shotgun barrels that converts them into an inline muzzleloading shotgun.

 

[mrostov]

To the mention of air rifles. In the US, way back when, air rifles (like the Benjamin and Sheridan) and BB guns (like the Daisy Red Ryder) were two different things. The pump up air rifles of yesterday, such as the Benjamin which is still made, that were intended for hunting were typically .22cal and were considered good for rabbits and squirrel.

In the 60's and 70's they faded out a bit as .177 rifles for target shooting and just playing around became popular. Because these rifles were the same bore diameter as a steel BB, the two types of pneumatic rifles became sort of one in the eyes of most people.

Americans are getting more serious about their air rifles and there are a number of custom air rifle makers in the US now such as Quackenbush. The Korean imports are very popular. The Quackenbush rifles are typical of custom and higher end production air rifles (such as the Airforce Texan) in the US and they are powerful enough to drop an elk. Americans, when they think of a serious air rifle, are often enamored with the powerful .46cal Girandoni air rifle carried by Lewis and Clark on their famous expedition.

For the lever cocked, piston rifles you can get some powerful ones, such as the Hatsan 125 (made in Turkey). The .22cal Hatsan 125, which pushes a .22cal pellet at 1000fps, is a serious hunting tool. Most air rifles of this type are made in China or Turkey these days. In the 1980's or before, if you wanted a serious air rifle of this type, you bought something like a German Feinwerkbau.

The Survivalist movement was one of the forces that got people serious about air rifles again. The well known survivalist author Mel Tappan, in his classic book, 'Survival Guns', talked about how air rifles were a valuable tool, capable to doing most of what a .22LR could do, but quietly and with much cheaper and more compact ammo.

I like to have the ability to be as self-sufficient as possible, for various reasons. While the very large bore air rifles will use a cast lead bullet, the hollowbase lead pellets used by .177 and .22cal rifles tend to be mass produced on swaging machines. However, I found one guy, the only guy on the planet it seems, a machinist in the UK that is actually making a decent, viable kit to manufacture your own airgun pellets. Basically, you have a mold and you make a small batch of lead pellet cores. Then, one at a time with a small swaging tool, you make your finished pellets.

 

[snappingturtle]

there is a musket season wow! that I did not know of. I was thinking of bringing up the Giradoni rifle but you beat me too it, come to think on it air rifles had something of a good standing in past times this side of the pond, if you could afford them they where considered good for hunting, using butt or ball reservoirs they were quiet, potent and had little trouble with the wet, something I'm sure you know this island is known for, I have noticed the rise of high powered air rifles in the US it dose make a lot of sense if you can cast lead and use a pump you always can shoot, its a very self contained system and you can carry over a thousand pellets with easy, very handy if you think the world may go crazy one day!
I think in the main we Brit's had more of a liking for spring guns, but for me my first really good rifle was a pump up Crossman, I really fell for it, the power system, again is self contained and very light, its consistent and powerful being not unlike a pcp with a chamber, the Crossman's are not refined for sure! but if you know what you doing they can be, I like a fool moved mine on, dam stupid as it was a 2200 chrome receiver version! but a few years back got lucky and out of the blue one came up as a trade in, 2200 black version from the late 80's no use still boxed!, and this time its not going anywhere! come to think of it, its about time I got on with more work the long drag trigger really needs refinement!

 

[santaman2000]

there is a musket season wow! that I did not know of. I was thinking of bringing up the Giradoni rifle but you beat me too it,....

As Mrostov said the laws and seasons vary according to individual state laws (federal law generally only steps in for migratory animals or for animals that are endangered) That said, most states call the season"primitive firearms season" or something similar. As I said I like to use replicas of actual historical muzzle loaders but as both Mrostov and I both said, most people nowadays prefer using a more modern version. I make my choice based on my interest in the guns and their history whereas most hunters view it simply as a way to add more hunting time.

 

[snappingturtle]

Yer I get it santaman, I was being light hearted with the calling it musket season! so what is the idea behind it? seems such an odd concept!

 

[santaman2000]

Originally hunting seasons were open for anybody using any legal weapon: modern firearms, bows, or muzzle loaders. But it was correctly assumed that the vast majority would be using modern firearms and the others would just hunt in the same time/places as they did. However interest in bowhunting grew rather steadily in the first half of the 20th century until many states began offering special bow seasons just for them after WWII. Then around the 1950s the interest in muzzle loaders started a similar growth path; I presume fueled by Disney's release of the movie Davey Crockett (the Boone & Crockett Club keeps separate record data just for trophies harvested by primitive firearms) So the states likewise began offering the special muzzle loader seasons. Originally they were both mainly used by hunters with an interest in historical guns and bows.

Even today a bowhunter or muzzle loader hunter can still hunt in the full gun season; but not the other way around.

 

[snappingturtle]

Thank you sataman that's rather interesting... right! think all I need now is a side by side muzzle loader in 4 bore! and a ticket for the states!, its part of my bucket list you see, to do a Victorian style safari (I think that would mean just shoot anything that moves ) and go see America again.