Fuel for long distance trips

[santaman2000]

....I can't say spending part of my trip collecting poo is high up my wish list. But I do recognise that there is more than just twigs to go in the little stoves.

Julia

Including hexi, sterno, a small container of meths, etc. Whatever might be available.

 

[santaman2000]

There are notices up in our local petrol stations stating quite clearly that there are minimum volumes and specifying just which containers are considered 'suitable'.
It's all very well turning up with a fuel bottle, but unless the girl at the desk is prepared to click the button that allows the pump to work, you won't get any fuel.
It's not always easy.

cheers,
Toddy

See Quixoticgeek's earlier post. Those should be MAXIMUM volumes, not MINIMUM (although the petrol station might have a minimum buy I suppose) And yes the MSR type (such as the Primus ones linked) are approved if her statement is correct.

OOPS! Give me a few minutes to edit that earlier post with a link that actually works.

There. Corrected.

 

[Quixoticgeek]

Perhaps try looking at it another way, what are the implications if your stove goes wrong? Minor inconvenience? Major disaster? Could you survive on a camp fire for a day or two? Are you likely to be able to get spares for a stove if it goes wrong? Another thing to consider is water, are you intending to purify it by boiling or are you planning other means of ensuring safe drinking water?

This is true. I can't carry enough fuel to depend on boiling water to drink. I typically consume 4-5L+ per day (been measuring it recently). I have a sawyer mini filter now to filter my water with. Maybe combined with puri tabs.

If the stove fails, I might be hungrier than planned for a few days until I can effect replacement. Won't die from it on any of my planned trips.

The reason I know about the feed tube going sproing! and disappearing is that it happened when I was on a trip and the stove is non-functional without it. It was a nuisance but it wasn't a disaster because I got hold of some meths at a tiny store and made a meths burner from an old drink can that I found so I could still have my morning tea and I wasn't entirely dependent on cooking for my food.

I think not being dependant on cooking for food is a key point here too.

If it will burn kerosene, it will burn diesel. If it will burn petrol, it'll burn avgas.

I'm going to have to test this, as I can't say I am certain about that. I would also ask: for how long, and how reliably. I may get one meal out of diesel, but would I get a week's worth?

There are notices up in our local petrol stations stating quite clearly that there are minimum volumes and specifying just which containers are considered 'suitable'.
It's all very well turning up with a fuel bottle, but unless the girl at the desk is prepared to click the button that allows the pump to work, you won't get any fuel.
It's not always easy.

You can get away with it at some more urban filling stations by simply using the card payment self service thingy, no human in the loop... Tho I wouldn't want to rely on that. There are work arounds, it is not insurmountable if really dependant on it. If they are that picky they will sell a 5L jerry can, you can always buy that, and then decant round the corner. Very suboptimal, but if it's that or no mug of tea, it's that.

I think we are digressing far far far to far from my original question, at which point does the increased energy density of the fuel justify the extra weight of the stove, and that appears to be in the 7-10 days area.

Thank you everyone for you helpful suggestions.

Julia

 

[Toddy]

We know the bottles are safe, are intended for fuel, but the wee lassie working the tills just sees a bottle that won't hold their minimum amount and it causes hassle.

The average price for a litre of petrol95 today in the UK is £129.69
While Julia's buying more than she needs just so that she meets their minimums, makes it expensive. For a brew up and a bite to eat, it'd be better nipping into a café.

Sorry taken the thread OT and it wasn't intentional.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[santaman2000]

T....I'm going to have to test this, as I can't say I am certain about that. I would also ask: for how long, and how reliably. I may get one meal out of diesel, but would I get a week's worth? ....

Avgas is little more than high octane petrol (likely giving more heat per amount burned) and kerosene and diesel are virtually the same thing (though not exactly) and jet fuel can substitute for either (that's the reason all of our Air Force vehicles and GSA now burn diesel; so that we only need to take jet fuel on deployments)

 

[Quixoticgeek]

We know the bottles are safe, are intended for fuel, but the wee lassie working the tills just sees a bottle that won't hold their minimum amount and it causes hassle.

Of course, never underestimate the power of a jobsworth to really screw things up...

The average price for a litre of petrol95 today in the UK is £129.69
While Julia's buying more than she needs just so that she meets their minimums, makes it expensive. For a brew up and a bite to eat, it'd be better nipping into a café.

Bloomin eck, where are you getting your petrol from? £129.69!! that's 100 times more expensive than down here in Kent... or maybe the decimal point is in the wrong place...

Sorry taken the thread OT and it wasn't intentional.

Threads go where the posters take them...

Julia

 

[santaman2000]

......the average price for a litre of petrol95 today in the uk is £129.69....

wow!!!!!!!!

 

[cranmere]

It's definitely worth testing the stove with different fuels if you're thinking of using it. My Nova will handle all sorts of stuff but it prefers white gas/coleman fuel or clean paraffin. It can do it partly because it has a nifty little jet pricker built in and therefore the jet doesn't get clogged.

I got it when I was globe trotting because of the multi-fuel capability and travelling to places where gas canisters and meths were not always available, but I think I would seriously consider a meths burner for the trip you're describing for ease of use and there being nothing to go wrong.

 

[Nomad]

Then I look at these numbers and wonder how much weight we're really talking, and if I would be carrying more than this in mud on my shoes, and thus should just pick the petrol and be done with it...

I carried a Champion SAK in my trouser pocket for over 30 years until I retired it. 148g.
I now carry a Swiss Champ SAK in my pocket. 183g

The weight has never been a factor - I just don't notice it.

 

[santaman2000]

Thanks cranmere. I forgot that: if it will burn petrol, it'll burn white gas, or Coleman fuel (or any other generic brand) as well. Probably more cleanly.

 

[Toddy]

Ooops
I copied and pasted that from the site where I found the average price .....ach, I know what I did; I put the £ sign in front.
They just had 129.69

Sorry for the muddle.

It still costs too damned much to fill my car's tank though.

atb,
M

 

[Quixoticgeek]

Avgas is little more than high octane petrol (likely giving more heat per amount burned) and kerosene and diesel are virtually the same thing (though not exactly) and jet fuel can substitute for either (that's the reason all of our Air Force vehicles and GSA now burn diesel; so that we only need to take jet fuel on deployments)

The thing is, the fuel we get from the BP garage at the end of the road, isn't just hydrocarbons, and definitely isn't just the grade of hydrocarbon we think it is. Coleman fuel/ white gas, is a unadulterated form of petrol. The stuff we get at Esso, that's got all sorts of crap in it to make the engine work better. At least it won't have tetraethylelead in it... This is why burning petrol in a stove like the msr stoves tends to result in higher maintenance requirements.

Diesel is a classic one. The diesel I get if I fill the truck up now will be different to the stuff I get in January, and different again to what I would get in Germany in January. Due to the high gelling point of diesel (-10°C or there abouts), it needs to be winterised, this is done by adding other hydrocarbons to the mix, including petrol and kerosene. I've seen some interesting results in spring, when someone travelled from southern Germany up to the Harz mountains to meet us. Being spring, the garages in the south had switched over from winter diesel, but up in the Harz, it was still cold enough to need it. Wasn't pretty.

Maybe I'll get the service kit for my stove, then test it with Diesel and Paraffin (what we Brits call kerosene for our friends across the pond)

It's definitely worth testing the stove with different fuels if you're thinking of using it. My Nova will handle all sorts of stuff but it prefers white gas/coleman fuel or clean paraffin. It can do it partly because it has a nifty little jet pricker built in and therefore the jet doesn't get clogged.

The MSR stoves are the same, they have the "shaker jet" to clear out the clogged gunk.

I got it when I was globe trotting because of the multi-fuel capability and travelling to places where gas canisters and meths were not always available, but I think I would seriously consider a meths burner for the trip you're describing for ease of use and there being nothing to go wrong.

I got my MSR Whisperlite internationale when I was 18 for travelling in Europe, upon finding that I could get diesel a lot easier than I could petrol, I got myself the Dragonfly to go with it. Which I take depends on where I go. The only gripe I have with them is the weight

Julia

 

[Quixoticgeek]

I carried a Champion SAK in my trouser pocket for over 30 years until I retired it. 148g.
I now carry a Swiss Champ SAK in my pocket. 183g

The weight has never been a factor - I just don't notice it.

I often hear this from people when I mention weight of various items. You're right, you don't notice the weight of your knife in your pocket. But, if I was to take every item in your pack, and make each one 50g heavier. You would notice the 1kg of extra weight you're carrying around.

I have a leatherman wave which I use for a lot of things. On trips where I am travelling a long way on foot, I leave it at home.

To put it in perspective, to carry walk 1km, is 100 calories. To do that 1km with a 5kg pack, is 150 calories. Every 100g is another calorie per km. Not much on a 5k walk round the local woods. Do 300 km through the wilderness, and having an extra 1kg of pack weight, means you burn 3000 calories. (based on "average" calorie numbers, individuals may vary etc... numbers for guidance purposes only).

Thanks cranmere. I forgot that: if it will burn petrol, it'll burn white gas, or Coleman fuel (or any other generic brand) as well. Probably more cleanly.

Yep, see previous post regarding fuel additives.

Ooops
I copied and pasted that from the site where I found the average price .....ach, I know what I did; I put the £ sign in front.
They just had 129.69

Sorry for the muddle.

It still costs too damned much to fill my car's tank though.

I assumed it was a typo, couldn't pass up the opportunity to joke about how expensive fuel is these days tho.

Julia

 

[santaman2000]

The thing is, the fuel we get from the BP garage at the end of the road, isn't just hydrocarbons, and definitely isn't just the grade of hydrocarbon we think it is. Coleman fuel/ white gas, is a unadulterated form of petrol. The stuff we get at Esso, that's got all sorts of crap in it to make the engine work better. At least it won't have tetraethylelead in it... This is why burning petrol in a stove like the msr stoves tends to result in higher maintenance requirements.....

Agreed. Pretty much the same with all these type stoves; not just MSR (although some brands may well be finickier than others) ALL these fuels will work, but some will burn cleaner. And as has already been suggested (and you agreed to) test them all before you go. Know what you would prefer to use and what would only be a last resort.

 

[santaman2000]

......Diesel is a classic one. The diesel I get if I fill the truck up now will be different to the stuff I get in January, and different again to what I would get in Germany in January. Due to the high gelling point of diesel (-10°C or there abouts), it needs to be winterised, this is done by adding other hydrocarbons to the mix, including petrol and kerosene. I've seen some interesting results in spring, when someone travelled from southern Germany up to the Harz mountains to meet us. Being spring, the garages in the south had switched over from winter diesel, but up in the Harz, it was still cold enough to need it. Wasn't pretty.

Maybe I'll get the service kit for my stove, then test it with Diesel and Paraffin (what we Brits call kerosene for our friends across the pond)....

Understood. But TBH the difference between kerosene (paraffin) and diesel (pure diesel, that is) is too slight to consider. Adding kero to diesel is like adding well wter to tap water. Adding petrol to it is the basic formula for making jet fuel (along with a few other additives)

Again, you already know to test them all at home before relying on them.

I wish I could give better advise on which fuels will be the most efficient; but to be honest, it sounds like you're bigger concern is fuel availability. With that in mind, I'd prefer a stove with the most flexibility.

 

[santaman2000]

......Maybe I'll get the service kit for my stove, then test it with Diesel and Paraffin (what we Brits call kerosene for our friends across the pond).....

If you consider meths or alcohol stoves, you might also want to research the different names they might be called where-ever you're going?

 

[cbr6fs]

With my Jetboil I'm getting around 14 days use out of a 460ml gas canister, that's boiling just under 2 litres of water per day so around 28 litres of boiling water.

A full 460ml gas cartridge weighs around 373 grams on my scales, so i'm seeing around 13g of fuel used (including the weight of the container) per litre boiled.

As a comparison my Evernew alcohol burner (pretty efficient compared to a trangia burner) uses around 30ml of meths to boil 500ml of water.

28 (amount i get out a gas cartridge) x 30ml = 840ml of meths required
My Trangia meths bottle fully filled with 500ml of meths weighs 485 grams
My 300 Trangia meths bottle filled up weights 353 grams
500ml + 300ml = 800ml (around 28 boils)
More worryingly though 485g + 353g = 838 grams for for (inc containers)


838 grams of meths needed
373 grams for a gas cartridge

Ok you can use lighter containers for the meths, but if i'm going anywhere remote there is no way i'd use a fuel container i'm not 100% happy with.

Couple of others things, i can simmer with the gas cartridge burner and turn it off when it's no longer needed.
It takes just under 4 mins to boil 1 litre of water with my Jetboil and around 8 mins to boil 500ml with my Evernew burner, again a design that is a lot more efficient than a Trangia burner.


Meths burner, multi fuel or gas cartridge they will ALL need a flat surface to cook on, Jetboils come with canister feet that make them extremely stable, or you could use a remote gas burner i've been using a Kovea Spider for ages now and really rate it.


I have gas burners, wood burners, meths burners and multi fuel stoves and 99.99% of trips i take a gas burner.
On trips 14 days and longer it's 100% gas burners for me.

In theory it sounds great being able to find meths at a small village hardware shop, or finding a garage to fill up your multifuel with petrol.
In my experience of real world hiking though it's rarely that simple.
Hardware store doesn't have any meths, small village petrol station closed or won't allow you to fill your fuel bottle, even had petrol THAT bad from one little village petrol station it just wouldn't ignite, we ended up having a small fire and pored a tiny amount of petrol on to get it started, the "petrol" actually put the fire out.

My advice is unless it's going to be extremely cold, go with a gas burner.

 

[Quixoticgeek]

I have gas burners, wood burners, meths burners and multi fuel stoves and 99.99% of trips i take a gas burner.
On trips 14 days and longer it's 100% gas burners for me.

In theory it sounds great being able to find meths at a small village hardware shop, or finding a garage to fill up your multifuel with petrol.
In my experience of real world hiking though it's rarely that simple.
Hardware store doesn't have any meths, small village petrol station closed or won't allow you to fill your fuel bottle, even had petrol THAT bad from one little village petrol station it just wouldn't ignite, we ended up having a small fire and pored a tiny amount of petrol on to get it started, the "petrol" actually put the fire out.

My advice is unless it's going to be extremely cold, go with a gas burner.

All wonderfully accurate and useful comments, apart from a few minor issues.

In my post 8 I gave a clear reasoning and justification for why gas was immediately discounted.

However, I shall elaborate further.

- I can't take a can of gas with me on the Eurostar. This means that I have to source some somewhere down route.

- What type do I go for then? A few years back I was hiking in Scotland with friends, and we were based in Killin. I took my petrol stove, filling it up when I filled up the hire car to get there, and my friend took his gas stove. He scoured all three outdoor shops in the village for the right gas to fuel his stove, before finally giving up and buying a hexi stove so he could at least eat... A few years later my housemate of the time was going hiking in the dolomites. I offered to lend him my MSR Whisperlite. His hiking companion said that it was kind but unneeded, they had a gas stove and would be fine. They got there to find they couldn't get the right gas cart anywhere, they spent 10 days cooking on my housemate's crusader cooker. With this in mind, I cannot depend on being able to source the right kind of gas cart where ever it is I am going. Liquid fuels of one kind or another can be found pretty much everywhere.

These points are in addition to my previous comments about the stability of canister mounted gas stoves, and the lack of weight saving that a remote cartridge gas stove offers.

Thanks

Julia

 

[cranmere]

Thanks cranmere. I forgot that: if it will burn petrol, it'll burn white gas, or Coleman fuel (or any other generic brand) as well. Probably more cleanly.

I periodically give my Nova a batch of Coleman fuel especially if it's been burning fuel intended for vehicles which contains all sorts of additives because that cleans through the whole system. I have one of the early Novas and they are reckoned to be much better than the later ones, mine has certainly given excellent service with no problems although I help it by servicing it properly.

 

[cbr6fs]

That's very weird, i've travelled extensively and never had any problems finding threaded type gas cartridges.

If you're travelling through France there are hundreds of decathalon stores around the country they all stock threaded gas canisters.
http://www.decathlon.fr/cartouche-power-gas-100-g-id_8185223.html

As i say personally i've always found threaded cartridges pretty easily, but if you are nervous about finding them then you could take an adaptor.
This one allows you to use the gas canisters that are used to fill up lighters, most news agents will sell this type of canister.

Alternatively there are the type that convert a pierced type canister to a threaded type
In many European countries the vast vast majority of supermarkets sell these types of canisters.

Can't say as i understand your concern about gas canister stability.
Any stove you use needs to be on level ground, your Whisperlite has a smaller footprint than the feet that come with Jetboils.
In all my years using gas canister stoves i can honestly say i've never had one topple over.
So i think you are over thinking it.

Likewise i think you are over thinking the weight thing.
Your Whisperlite weighs in around 410g packed, add to that say 850g for fuel, that's 1260g

We've already concluded your equivalent gas canisters will be 373g

A Kovea camp 5 remote stove weighs 142g as a comparison, my Kovea spider is only 195g still more than 1/2 the weight of your Whisperlite.

Whisperlite with fuel = 1260g
Kovea spider with fuel = 568g

If you really want to get anal about weight take a look at the Fire-Maple canister top stove at 49g.
Fire-Maple stove 49g + plastic canister feet 29g = 78g and this is as stable as any stove i've used.

Alternatively if your just boiling water take a look at the Jetboil stove range.
Had problems with my first generation Sol Ti, the heat exchanger fins melted while i was cooking beans.
Bought a second cup and have been using that JUST to boil water for over a year without any problems.
The burner, plastic spreader feet, cosy and 800ml cup weigh only 344g

As i say i wouldn't recommend it is you plan on cooking, but for just boiling water it's extremely efficient, extremely fast and extremely light.
373g for you gas canister and 344g for the Jetboil and you have your complete cooking system for around 2 weeks for 717g.
I can get lighter, but then i have to start using smaller cups/pots and this starts getting a pain when cooking.