Expedition summer 2006
- Thread starter arctic hobo
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Hey Guest, Early bird pricing on the Summer Moot (29th July - 10th August) available until April 6th, we'd love you to come. PLEASE CLICK HERE to early bird price and get more information.
how much do they cost to buy.
I have good connections with a bike shop that may be able to sort out bits if we need them making
I have good connections with a bike shop that may be able to sort out bits if we need them making
I'm already starting to prepare a mental list of what we're going to be needing to take and how to eliminate on unecessary kit. Looking at the Map you put up AB we're going to be carrying any kit up to 80 miles. Thats about 130km. Now someone with little training can carry a 30lb back at about 3km/h. Now we're talking about carrying 60lb, AB said that we've got about a week to cover that distance but there will be some canoeing in the mean time - pulling a figure out of the air say 2 days worth. Thats upto 130km in 5 days = 26km a day = 8.6h walking each day, it can be done but thats going to take some serious training and the lighter the loads we can get the easier its going to be. Don't forget on top of that we've got catch/gather food. AB let me know if any of thats wrong.
Wayne are you going to the Ashdown Forest meetup??
Wayne are you going to the Ashdown Forest meetup??
Assuming I'm AB... :?:
26km a day is, I think, a reasonable expectation. Myself I will (and do) walk up to 50km a day, but then hiking is a consuming passion for me - you people aren't hikers you're bushcrafters.
8.6h a day is also a reasonable expectation. It's only for five days broken up by canoeing, not several weeks end to end. Don't forget it stays light all night if we need to keep going, though of course that doesn't mean we won't be tired. And as you say, we must gather or hunt for food. This means that the days we walk will be the most tiring, but they are unavoidable.
You're absolutely right, we need to carry as little kit as possible. As I said before, that's where us bushcrafters have a big advantage - the equipment some people carry is ridiculous (boxes of cereal, folding chairs, I once even saw a portaloo on a handcart!). Personally the less food we can take the better - I know people are quite concerned about taking carbohydrates etc etc, but the effect of weight on walking is far bigger than anyone ever expects. Try it and see - carry a pack weighing 5 stones for a mile, take it off and walk another. The difference is quite unbelievable.
Viking, that's exactly what I meant :biggthump
I'm not sure about buying them or hiring them or what - but I can tell you I don't want to have to lump them downriver on a kayak. :shock:
26km a day is, I think, a reasonable expectation. Myself I will (and do) walk up to 50km a day, but then hiking is a consuming passion for me - you people aren't hikers you're bushcrafters.
8.6h a day is also a reasonable expectation. It's only for five days broken up by canoeing, not several weeks end to end. Don't forget it stays light all night if we need to keep going, though of course that doesn't mean we won't be tired. And as you say, we must gather or hunt for food. This means that the days we walk will be the most tiring, but they are unavoidable.
You're absolutely right, we need to carry as little kit as possible. As I said before, that's where us bushcrafters have a big advantage - the equipment some people carry is ridiculous (boxes of cereal, folding chairs, I once even saw a portaloo on a handcart!). Personally the less food we can take the better - I know people are quite concerned about taking carbohydrates etc etc, but the effect of weight on walking is far bigger than anyone ever expects. Try it and see - carry a pack weighing 5 stones for a mile, take it off and walk another. The difference is quite unbelievable.
Viking, that's exactly what I meant :biggthump
I'm not sure about buying them or hiring them or what - but I can tell you I don't want to have to lump them downriver on a kayak. :shock:
Sorry I wasn't sure if you'd told us your actual name so I just but AB in at that point. We've (Sam and I) walked upto 30km before in a day with packweights up 40lb, just never quite as heavy as this, but then thats what 18 months of training is going to be about :-D If we go for the Canoes, have you any idea how small they fold up, as in how we're going to be carrying them??
bambodoggy
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
TheViking said:Yeah something like this:biggthump We used them a lot in Sweden when we had to carry the canoes. They're handy and they have other uses too, for example when building bivouac with the canoe and a tarp.
Fantastic Andy...I'd been looking for these to suggest but couldn't find any on the web.... as well as the above uses they make wood collecting for fires easier....
All good points from everyone....although it's meant to be fun it's going to be very hard work....50km per day with 60lb packs is not for the untrained....those who are going need to think about ther training very carefully if they are to complete this and maintain a smile
Personally I hadn't realised the distance on foot was so much....quite glad my wife will only let me do the wet bit now! :rolmao: Done that sort of distance and weight before but I was a little younger and lot fitter at the time!!!Lets not scare anyone off but please be aware of the task in hand
None of us has a clue on canoe weight until we settle on what we are using! Those lighter weight blow ups are looking more likely for the walking team....or as I suggested earlier...and Chris has to have the final say on this as it's his bash...maybe you pick up the boats at the first water bit and only carry them as little as possible...
Chris...wasn't this a re-enactment of an old trip? If so do you know what the other team did about weight food etc?
As far as I can tell we're going to be walking up to 30km a day not 50km (Chris said he walks up to 50km a day normally). I must admit I like the idea of the blow up rafts, only problem I can fore see with them is that we can't spread the load over 2 or more people (could get messy with patch kits :-D )
For training purposes I'm seriously considering getting an orblieb dry bag and filling it with water as long as it doesn't unbalance you too much when walking.
For training purposes I'm seriously considering getting an orblieb dry bag and filling it with water as long as it doesn't unbalance you too much when walking.
bambodoggy
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Sorry, I mis-read it....still 30km a day still isn't a walk in the park!
Water is good for training...1 litre of water = 1Kg of weight):
Water is good for training...1 litre of water = 1Kg of weight
):I have to ask as I am the curious sort. What is going to make up the 60lb we are talking about carrying? Is this included our share of the canoe or are we just talking personal kit?
I ask because I have not had a need to carry 60lb or over since I was in the FCA (Irish TA) and that included weapon and rounds(I have done many multiday/week long trips and never needed anything more then a 50ltr pack when not in winter). If someone could PM or mail a list of the Personal kit that would make up this weight I would be grateful also what type of pack are we going to be carring I was assuming with canoes it won't be bergens?
A billy each should be a part of the kit list so many uses it's a survival most have.
Thanks in advance.
James
I ask because I have not had a need to carry 60lb or over since I was in the FCA (Irish TA) and that included weapon and rounds(I have done many multiday/week long trips and never needed anything more then a 50ltr pack when not in winter). If someone could PM or mail a list of the Personal kit that would make up this weight I would be grateful also what type of pack are we going to be carring I was assuming with canoes it won't be bergens?
A billy each should be a part of the kit list so many uses it's a survival most have.
Thanks in advance.
James
Kit lists havent been discussed yet but I was trying to come up with some ball part figures, to give an idea of what I need to work towards. The 60lb was (hopefully) near the maximum weight that we'll have to carry and that will include the canoe/raft, paddles, buoyancy aid, plus the usual kit.
bambodoggy
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
I was "guestermating" on the weight and was including boats/paddles/helmets/flares/rescue lines etc.
Just to do the walk without the boating stuff would be much much lighter): hence I keep hinting to leave the boats to the last possible place you can pick them up.
I actually was thinking bergans....what else would we use? I've never carried a fold up canoe further than from a car to a river down a footpath so don't know the best way to carry them!
Just to do the walk without the boating stuff would be much much lighter
): hence I keep hinting to leave the boats to the last possible place you can pick them up.I actually was thinking bergans....what else would we use? I've never carried a fold up canoe further than from a car to a river down a footpath so don't know the best way to carry them!
Bambodoggy said:
I've never actually seen one yet let alone carried it so I've no idea how to look at carrying them, if its attached to you pack and you work on the principle that heavy items need to be near the top and close to you back then I'm stumped on that one.
bambodoggy
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
I'm working on the theory that it's just like strapping a battery from a patrol radio on top of your bergan (and hopefully not as heavy)! ! !
If anyone could enlighten us both then I'm sure Lithril and I would be grateful! lol
If anyone could enlighten us both then I'm sure Lithril and I would be grateful! lol
I thought that you where including the canoe etc. just had to ask. What about Duluth type pack. Or am I just being romantic.
Any the specs on the canoe or what ever craft we use will I suppose determine the kit. A in expierenced canoiest (and a kitaholic I just have to ask).
I would sway more toward bambodoggy's idea of doing the trek with out the canoe it might safe a light time as well for other activities such as climbing and exploration.
The max time off for me will be 4 weeks with the longs part of the journey to still to come I would like to enjoy it.
Just my thoughts
James
Any the specs on the canoe or what ever craft we use will I suppose determine the kit. A in expierenced canoiest (and a kitaholic I just have to ask).
I would sway more toward bambodoggy's idea of doing the trek with out the canoe it might safe a light time as well for other activities such as climbing and exploration.
The max time off for me will be 4 weeks with the longs part of the journey to still to come I would like to enjoy it.
Just my thoughts
James
Right then.
I'm Chris, just so everyone knows
I can't link directly, but on www.bergans.no - the guys who make the canoe - there is a picture of a pack frame designed to carry the entire canoe intact. However I don't think it's too practical for any distance.
However, all you might want to know about the canoes is I think to be found in this PDF: http://www.bergans.no/pdf/ally_monteringsanvisning.pdf
I don't regularly walk 50km a day! At least not with a big pack on
Canoe weight as I said earlier will be between 39 and 48 lb, depending on the size - but of course it depends even more on whether we use canoes!
Phil you're quite right, part 1 is a re enactment of Jan Baalsrud's journey. Trouble is, we're hoping to fare a little better than him: his included gangrene and 14 days starving at the top of a snowbound mountain! The latter part he was carried by friendly Norwegians and then Sami.
Apparently every year there is a memorial trek following his route... but I haven't been able to find out anything about it.
Water is indeed good for training! And I am told that you can get special belts with super heavy weights on them that you can wear as normal and they will train you up for being used to a great weight... but I don't know. Perhaps a diving belt might work? :?:
James, four weeks should be more than enough. I expect the river to take no more than two weeks, depending of course on the current - using the figures from lainio.com.
The trouble with not trekking with canoes is that during the first part we will be in and out of canoes a fair bit - and then we will have to a) detour to a road b) persuade somebody to pick them up, c) somehow get them from there to Kilpisjärvi, where we will still have to take them 18mi.
This might be better in terms of how the uphill bits are distributed - however without a map I just cannot say.
On the mapping front, I have good news. I have a good accurate simulation of the area on PC, and with it I can make a video showing our exact route in 3D.
If anyone's interested then please say - I don't know how I'd distribute the file to you people though :?:
As regards kit, I think we should discuss this at our first meetup - we need to compile a huge list that has everything we might ever need, and then strike off the items one by one, making sure that we know how we will do without.
I have found this a very successful method.
I'm Chris, just so everyone knows
I can't link directly, but on www.bergans.no - the guys who make the canoe - there is a picture of a pack frame designed to carry the entire canoe intact. However I don't think it's too practical for any distance.
However, all you might want to know about the canoes is I think to be found in this PDF: http://www.bergans.no/pdf/ally_monteringsanvisning.pdf
I don't regularly walk 50km a day! At least not with a big pack on
Canoe weight as I said earlier will be between 39 and 48 lb, depending on the size - but of course it depends even more on whether we use canoes!
Phil you're quite right, part 1 is a re enactment of Jan Baalsrud's journey. Trouble is, we're hoping to fare a little better than him: his included gangrene and 14 days starving at the top of a snowbound mountain! The latter part he was carried by friendly Norwegians and then Sami.
Apparently every year there is a memorial trek following his route... but I haven't been able to find out anything about it.
Water is indeed good for training! And I am told that you can get special belts with super heavy weights on them that you can wear as normal and they will train you up for being used to a great weight... but I don't know. Perhaps a diving belt might work? :?:
James, four weeks should be more than enough. I expect the river to take no more than two weeks, depending of course on the current - using the figures from lainio.com.
The trouble with not trekking with canoes is that during the first part we will be in and out of canoes a fair bit - and then we will have to a) detour to a road b) persuade somebody to pick them up, c) somehow get them from there to Kilpisjärvi, where we will still have to take them 18mi.
This might be better in terms of how the uphill bits are distributed - however without a map I just cannot say.
On the mapping front, I have good news. I have a good accurate simulation of the area on PC, and with it I can make a video showing our exact route in 3D.
If anyone's interested then please say - I don't know how I'd distribute the file to you people though :?:
As regards kit, I think we should discuss this at our first meetup - we need to compile a huge list that has everything we might ever need, and then strike off the items one by one, making sure that we know how we will do without.
I have found this a very successful method.
bambodoggy
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Chris, when you say you'll be in and out of boats for a while on the trekking bit can you expand on that at all....will you be going down stream or just crossing rivers?
I only ask this because, as I'm sure you know, there are other ways to cross rivers....even bigish rivers.
I can never get the link to the canoes to do anything other than show me the first page with somebody on a ridgeline!!!!!
What size is the 3D file that shows the route mate?
Cool...got the PDF file open....nice looking boats! If one man can pack these then you'll have to use a buddy system as that man's kit will have to be carried by his partner (for man read: man or woman).
wups...hadn't realised the other guy's trip was a nightmare!!!! Is there anything on that Sami site I sent you the other day or anywhere you can mail them and ask them about the yearly re-enactment?
I only ask this because, as I'm sure you know, there are other ways to cross rivers....even bigish rivers.
I can never get the link to the canoes to do anything other than show me the first page with somebody on a ridgeline!!!!!
What size is the 3D file that shows the route mate?
Cool...got the PDF file open....nice looking boats! If one man can pack these then you'll have to use a buddy system as that man's kit will have to be carried by his partner (for man read: man or woman).
wups...hadn't realised the other guy's trip was a nightmare!!!! Is there anything on that Sami site I sent you the other day or anywhere you can mail them and ask them about the yearly re-enactment?
The first part is fjords - we walk 2mi, paddle, walk 29mi, paddle (two days), walk 18mi, paddle, then walk to Kilpisjärvi. Fjords as I'm sure you know are deep inlets of the sea, and definitely need boats to cross!
Also, that is assuming we can get a boat out to our starting point - we might need to paddle to there.
That bergans.no site should have a menu at the top... I don't know why you aren't seeing it on your PC :?:
The video (I haven't made it yet) will be large - possibly between 70MB and 300MB.
I think the re enactment is done by Norwegians... I will do all I can to find out about it - after all we may be able to hire a guide or get some vital route info.
Also, that is assuming we can get a boat out to our starting point - we might need to paddle to there.
That bergans.no site should have a menu at the top... I don't know why you aren't seeing it on your PC :?:
The video (I haven't made it yet) will be large - possibly between 70MB and 300MB.
I think the re enactment is done by Norwegians... I will do all I can to find out about it - after all we may be able to hire a guide or get some vital route info.
I'm definately interested in the map, I'm also on broadband so if need be I can set up and ftp on here for people to download from?? You'll just need to send me the file by CD or similar.
Those canoes look great, I've still no idea on how they're carried with other gear, looking at that it'll take up the space of one rucksack.
I've done some Kayaking before but never in the sea but I've been told its quite different. Also what are we likely to expect with weather and sea conditions up there, would the canoes be suitable for those crossings?
Those canoes look great, I've still no idea on how they're carried with other gear, looking at that it'll take up the space of one rucksack.
I've done some Kayaking before but never in the sea but I've been told its quite different. Also what are we likely to expect with weather and sea conditions up there, would the canoes be suitable for those crossings?
Nice to see we are uping the tempo on the planning front. :wave:
i was getting worried people might think this was a walk in the park. i had a feeling the first guy wouldn't have had an easy time of it. First remember he would have started out as a soldier and thus fitter that us, generally. OK me. The the motivation of getting shot helps push you forward.
Our motivation is to have an adventurous jolly.
I think i first group decision should be the method of transport. I am with Bambodoggy. I wold like to trek with the canoes as little as possible. carrying 4 weeks worth of personal kits and suppiles is going to be hard. Fitness and group disipline in going to be stretched. Over loaded people tend to get knee and ankle problems. I wouldn't want anyones trip ended at the start from a twisted ankle.
Next we need to carry dry bags and all the rest of the wet kit on fairly long stretches of hiking. Our packs have a fixed volume and will soon be filled with dry bags paddles axes helmets flares. billy first aid kit etc.
Glad we have decided Chris has the role of expedition leader as well. a trip of this nature of 10+ people cannot be a democracy.
Has anyone handles the canoes before. Is there a UK suppiler. Would be good to try them out first hand. Most retailers will let you try out a canoe kayak etc before you buy.
i was getting worried people might think this was a walk in the park. i had a feeling the first guy wouldn't have had an easy time of it. First remember he would have started out as a soldier and thus fitter that us, generally. OK me. The the motivation of getting shot helps push you forward.
Our motivation is to have an adventurous jolly.
I think i first group decision should be the method of transport. I am with Bambodoggy. I wold like to trek with the canoes as little as possible. carrying 4 weeks worth of personal kits and suppiles is going to be hard. Fitness and group disipline in going to be stretched. Over loaded people tend to get knee and ankle problems. I wouldn't want anyones trip ended at the start from a twisted ankle.
Next we need to carry dry bags and all the rest of the wet kit on fairly long stretches of hiking. Our packs have a fixed volume and will soon be filled with dry bags paddles axes helmets flares. billy first aid kit etc.
Glad we have decided Chris has the role of expedition leader as well. a trip of this nature of 10+ people cannot be a democracy.
Has anyone handles the canoes before. Is there a UK suppiler. Would be good to try them out first hand. Most retailers will let you try out a canoe kayak etc before you buy.
Trouble with minimising trekking with canoes is that it's very difficult to do. Cost, (great) difficulty in organisation and us having to go far out of our way may well mean it's quite impractical. Don't forget that most of the walking for the first part has to include boats, and from there it's only 52 + 18mi carrying them that we can consider ditching them for - and to avoid a big detour we'll need them again at the 52mi point. To my mind, 26mi in two days is reasonable, as we can follow a road for about half of it if we need to keep speed up (hard on your feet though). Then a quick canoe trip, then 18mi the next day, a camp on the lake shore, and we start down the river the next day.
As regards carbohydrates, I notice Ray Mears says you can make flour of a sort with pine bark ground down... there should certainly be no shortage of pine trees! With a lot of time on the boats in the day, we can quite feasibly grind bark to make rudimentary bread. :biggthump
And there's pine needle tea as well :super:
I think that we need to cut down on supplies as much as is humanly possible. There is no point on the journey where we are further than two days from a town, where help and food can be sourced - in emergencies maybe a small party could visit. I carry 24 hours of emergency rations always, but I hope I am not too rash in suggesting we need carry no more than that. Although rations are a weight that disappears as we go on, we'll not notice the weight in the later parts as it'll be carried in canoes - when it's heaviest is when we'll be climbing steep hills in the first part.
Your own thoughts on food would be appreciated
We do definitely need to get our hands on one of the canoes as soon as we can, and have a meetup with it there. I will try to find UK hire of one :wave:
I'm glad we have decided on I'm leader, not because it's me but because there must be a leader - as they say, the worst decision is no decision. I will of course always bow to people with more expertise than myself - eg Phil with canoes (I'm only a two star kayaker myself
), but from experience of socialist democratic style expeditions they just don't work 
Hope I'm not coming across too arrogant (a nasty trait of mine )
Anyway, a meetup in August I think might be a good idea - I am very busy until then, and it will give us enough time to get hold of canoes, extra info etc etc.
Chris :wave:
As regards carbohydrates, I notice Ray Mears says you can make flour of a sort with pine bark ground down... there should certainly be no shortage of pine trees! With a lot of time on the boats in the day, we can quite feasibly grind bark to make rudimentary bread. :biggthump
And there's pine needle tea as well :super:
I think that we need to cut down on supplies as much as is humanly possible. There is no point on the journey where we are further than two days from a town, where help and food can be sourced - in emergencies maybe a small party could visit. I carry 24 hours of emergency rations always, but I hope I am not too rash in suggesting we need carry no more than that. Although rations are a weight that disappears as we go on, we'll not notice the weight in the later parts as it'll be carried in canoes - when it's heaviest is when we'll be climbing steep hills in the first part.
Your own thoughts on food would be appreciated
We do definitely need to get our hands on one of the canoes as soon as we can, and have a meetup with it there. I will try to find UK hire of one :wave:
I'm glad we have decided on I'm leader, not because it's me but because there must be a leader - as they say, the worst decision is no decision. I will of course always bow to people with more expertise than myself - eg Phil with canoes (I'm only a two star kayaker myself
), but from experience of socialist democratic style expeditions they just don't work Hope I'm not coming across too arrogant (a nasty trait of mine )Anyway, a meetup in August I think might be a good idea - I am very busy until then, and it will give us enough time to get hold of canoes, extra info etc etc.
Chris :wave:
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