Displaying knives in public

[Pict]

So if you went to a rifle show you'd walk round with a shotgun

LOL - At every gun show I've ever been to in the US there will be a few dozen people walking around with long guns over their shoulder with a "For Sale" sign on the barrel. That doesn't bother anybody as the actions are open and held with a cable tie. The very few, people dressed head to toe in camo get the sideways looks.
They will usually have a sign "No Loaded Firearms Beyond This Point".

 

[mountainm]

Aren't kittens lovely?

Pan fried in garlic butter, yes - but otherwise quite bland

 

[myotis]

I have now read through this thread a couple of times, and cannot see an explanation of the "legal" justification for openly wearing a fixed blade knife at a bushcraft show while wandering around the stands.

I understand the logic of the arguments being put forward (or at least some of them). But, some of the stories on here and elsewhere suggest that "some" of the police follow the letter of the law, without applying much common sense.

So I am interested in what legal defence could be used should you have the misfortune to be arrested for having a knife on your belt, in a public place, when the public place was a Bushcraft show.

I know that having it in your rucksack is still having it in a public place, but that seems more justifiable in terms of "safer than leaving it in your tent" where it could be argued it is then a 'tool" for camping.

And you could argue that you are on your way to a Bushcraft workshop, where you need to use your own knife, or you might be buying a new knife and you want to able able to compare it with your old knife. But in these instances, you could still have the knife in a rucksack

I am struggling to come up with a good "legal" reason to have it on public display.

There are a couple of comments in this thread that refer to a legal justification for having an "illegal in a public Place" knife on display at a bushcraft show, but I can't find the justification explained.

I would therefore be interested to hear what it is, or get pointed towards the relevant posts.

Not that I want to carry a knife on my belt to a bushcraft show, but it can be useful knowing the appropriate legal arguments as to why it should be allowed.

many thanks,

Graham

 

[Corso]

There is no legal presedent on where you have it on your person so belt, bag or round you neck is irrelivant - its just going to be spotted on your belt and therefore draw unwanted attention.

I've not seen any case law where the CPS or Judge has put forward the notion that if the knife had been in the defendants bag it would have been fine?

 

[boatman]

I have now read through this thread a couple of times, and cannot see an explanation of the "legal" justification for openly wearing a fixed blade knife at a bushcraft show while wandering around the stands.

I understand the logic of the arguments being put forward (or at least some of them). But, some of the stories on here and elsewhere suggest that "some" of the police follow the letter of the law, without applying much common sense.

So I am interested in what legal defence could be used should you have the misfortune to be arrested for having a knife on your belt, in a public place, when the public place was a Bushcraft show.

I know that having it in your rucksack is still having it in a public place, but that seems more justifiable in terms of "safer than leaving it in your tent" where it could be argued it is then a 'tool" for camping.

And you could argue that you are on your way to a Bushcraft workshop, where you need to use your own knife, or you might be buying a new knife and you want to able able to compare it with your old knife. But in these instances, you could still have the knife in a rucksack

I am struggling to come up with a good "legal" reason to have it on public display.

There are a couple of comments in this thread that refer to a legal justification for having an "illegal in a public Place" knife on display at a bushcraft show, but I can't find the justification explained.

I would therefore be interested to hear what it is, or get pointed towards the relevant posts.

Not that I want to carry a knife on my belt to a bushcraft show, but it can be useful knowing the appropriate legal arguments as to why it should be allowed.

many thanks,

Graham

You do not need a good legal argument as the action of wearing a knife on a belt in those circumstances is not illegal. We are not slaves but may exercise our legal rights because we feel like it. I thought shows were meant to be fun and if part of that fun is to wear gear then fine. I disliked the propaganda from the Hunt parade at the last County show I went to but enjoyed seeing the dogs and the horses, even the pretty jackets that some were wearing. Wouldn't dream of suggesting banning such a parade.

 

[myotis]

There is no legal presedent on where you have it on your person so belt, bag or round you neck is irrelivant - its just going to be spotted on your belt and therefore draw unwanted attention.

I've not seen any case law where the CPS or Judge has put forward the notion that if the knife had been in the defendants bag it would have been fine?

I made that point in my post, all I was suggesting was that in terms of providing a justification for carrying the knife, it would seem more convincing if the knife was in a bag and not in public display. However, that may be irrelevant if there is an "overriding" legally sound justification for carrying a knife in a pubic place, if that public place is a bushcraft show.

Graha

 

[British Red]

If the bushcraft show is on private land and you have landowners permission I would suggest you are fine

 

[myotis]

You do not need a good legal argument as the action of wearing a knife on a belt in those circumstances is not illegal.

But why is it not illegal, the reason for my post is that that sort of statement has been made a couple of times, but without any explanation. So what is it about these "particular circumstances" that means that it isn't illegal. What do you say to the Police man who decides to stop who for carrying a fixed blade in a public place, when that public place happens to be a Bushcraft show.

Graham

 

[rik_uk3]

Yes, in a case/sleeve, which is the same as a knife in a sheath or are people walking around holding them in their hands/teeth?

Why? If I'm in the UK I'd like to attend
http://www.shootingshow.co.uk/ but I'd not take my shotgun or expect to see many there with a rifle in a case or sleeve, plenty of toys on display to handle.

 

[myotis]

If the bushcraft show is on private land and you have landowners permission I would suggest you are fine

I did wonder about that, but also wondered if that worked with a show that was open to to public via day tickets that could be bought at the gate. Does that make it a public place? I suppose I am wandering off into the definition of a public place.

Graham

 

[mrcharly]

You say "I have paid entry to this show to take part in bushcraft, part of which involves woodcrafting using a knife. The knife I will use is carried on my belt, as you can see. When I leave the show the knife will be securely packed away as I will no longer have immediate use for it."

 

[mountainm]

wrong thread.

 

[Prawnster]

wrong thread.

Quite.


Sent from my phone.

 

[myotis]

You say "I have paid entry to this show to take part in bushcraft, part of which involves woodcrafting using a knife. The knife I will use is carried on my belt, as you can see. When I leave the show the knife will be securely packed away as I will no longer have immediate use for it."

Thanks,

Graham

 

[chutes]

I recently attended the Bushcrat show at Elvaston castle and was slightly concerned at how many people were carrying knives and sharps around the public areas.
I appreciate people were wild camping at the show as was I but I did not see the need to carry my knife, axe or machete around in full view when in the main show area and certainly not with a pint in my hand!
It all seemed to be a bit of a "mines bigger than yours" display of people's wares.
We all love our "toys" but I think they should be kept out of public view when not in the woods around our camps or at group meets.
There were plenty of sharps being sold and used in demonstrations under supervision
as you would expect at this type of event.
I would be interested to know what the organisers and those who attended the events' views are on this subject.

Did you feel threatened by all the "weapons"?

If so, don't be. "Sharps" are nothing more than tools which allow people to prepare food, make their way in close country, process firewood, or make stuff.

Like it or not, a large part of bushcrafting involves wielding a sharpened edge for one entirely practical and innocuous purpose or another. People are proud of their toys, and get a kick out of displaying them openly with likeminded folks at events such as these. It's no different than going to a mediaeval fair and seeing swords or helms. What did you expect at a bushcraft show?

I propose that for the next bushcraft show at Elvaston castle, it be MANDATORY to carry at minimum an Opinel folder, a Mora fixed blade and a Wetterling axe or hatchet or equivalent - all suitably sheathed and masked and used responsibly when they are not.

we must be turning out generations of wusses. Instead of rugged self-reliance and tolerance, we're cranking out armies of kool-aid drinkers who not only agree with banning anything which could even remotely be used as a weapon, but then whinge about it on the internet. All the while, what we see from down here in Australia is a UK populace who are barely allowed to buy a bread knife without ID while assorted crime gangs on the streets of your cities are carrying prohibited firearms. Nanny states are only good for the nanny. I look at the UK and see Australia's future. Unacceptable.

 

[mrcharly]

All the while, what we see from down here in Australia is a UK populace who are barely allowed to buy a bread knife without ID while assorted crime gangs on the streets of your cities are carrying prohibited firearms. Nanny states are only good for the nanny. I look at the UK and see Australia's future. Unacceptable.

Steady on, mate (I can say 'mate' because I'm an ex-Aussie).

Your impression is entirely wrong. It's perfectly normal for people to wander the streets of the UK with sharp-edged implements, 10" knives on them, etc. They are called 'tools'. I have a son who has been roaming the streets with 6 well-sharpened knives since he was 16, without any issue whatsoever (he's a chef).

I'd suggest that if a tattoed 16year-old with face piercings can walk through major cities carrying knives without being arrested on the spot, then there isn't really a problem.

Don't believe what you read in the papers!

 

[chutes]

Steady on, mate (I can say 'mate' because I'm an ex-Aussie).

Your impression is entirely wrong. It's perfectly normal for people to wander the streets of the UK with sharp-edged implements, 10" knives on them, etc. They are called 'tools'. I have a son who has been roaming the streets with 6 well-sharpened knives since he was 16, without any issue whatsoever (he's a chef).

I'd suggest that if a tattoed 16year-old with face piercings can walk through major cities carrying knives without being arrested on the spot, then there isn't really a problem.

Don't believe what you read in the papers!

Ex-Aussie? No such thing mate

"Lawful excuse" for carrying a knife is the key. I also read in the papers about the prevalence of CCTV and the resulting loss of privacy. The libertarian in me feels sad when people accept such draconian measures when they are advertised as being "for our own safety". Nanny state or wannabe totalitarian state?

Here are some of the papers I read about weapons issues in the UK.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-154307/Gun-crime-soars-35.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1576406/28-gun-crimes-committed-in-UK-every-day.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/nov/03/london-gun-crime-shootings-rise

This is interesting - handguns are banned in England and Wales and yet this site (a pro-gun-control site)...
http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF05.htm
... gives figures for weapons offences by weapon type. Note that for 2009/10 there were over 3700 handgun offences. Are you serious? But they banned handguns 15 years ago didn't they? So much for bans.

I wonder how many licensed shooters were guilty of weapons offences in the UK in the past 10 years?

For the record, I'm not a sporting shooter, don't own any firearms and don't even particularly like them.

But back to knives and their legality or otherwise. Back in '05 Tony put together a fine article on UK knife legislation which I should hope effectively nixes any anti-knife sentiment on this forum - http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8233

It's clear that the bushcraft show organisers and attendees were completely in the right and within UK law with their responsible and non-threatening public displays of these bladed bushcraft tools.

 

[mrcharly]

There ain't no freakin' CCTV out in the forests.

 

[John Fenna]

There ain't no freakin' CCTV out in the forests.

Are you sure of that?.....

 

[Corso]

You do not need a good legal argument as the action of wearing a knife on a belt in those circumstances is not illegal. We are not slaves but may exercise our legal rights because we feel like it. I thought shows were meant to be fun and if part of that fun is to wear gear then fine. I disliked the propaganda from the Hunt parade at the last County show I went to but enjoyed seeing the dogs and the horses, even the pretty jackets that some were wearing. Wouldn't dream of suggesting banning such a parade.

"It is an offence for any person, without lawful authority or good reason, to have with him in a public place, any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except for a folding pocket-knife which has a cutting edge to its blade not exceeding 3 inches." [CJA 1988 section 139(1)]

you dont have lawful authority (a legal right) at best you have 'good reason' - and that would be something you might need to prove in court, it would be up to you to decide if the reason was good enough to risk asking a judge or 12 of your peers to agree.....

But why is it not illegal, the reason for my post is that that sort of statement has been made a couple of times, but without any explanation. So what is it about these "particular circumstances" that means that it isn't illegal. What do you say to the Police man who decides to stop who for carrying a fixed blade in a public place, when that public place happens to be a Bushcraft show.

Graham

There are no "particular circumstances" the law is designed to allow flexibility thats why it says or good reason it would be down to you to prove you have one either to an officer desk sergent the CPS or a court....


interestingly enought though I haven't yet seen a court case where someone has given 'their good reason' and the judge turn round and say why didn't you have a sub 3" non loking folder for that - but i bet it will happen at some point