Attention Scottish/North English bushcrafters

[Doc]

There have been various threads about buying or leasing land for sustainable bushcraft use. One problem is that small woodlands sell for very high prices. Another problem is that people are unlikely to want to invest in land that is a long way from home.

With this in mind I was looking at the Forestry Commission Scotland pages on community right to buy. Unfortunately 'community' in this sense is geographically defined, eg by postcode. The bushcraft community is scattered and would be unlikely to qualify, at least in my interpretation.

However, there is also a procedure for the FC to sell surplus land. A local 'community body' will always have first right to buy, but if there is no community body interest, then a non-governmental organisation, cultural group, heritage group or recreational group (that's us, folks!) can express an interest and then buy the land at the district valuers valuation rather than the open market price.

Recent sales have been of 6 to 500 hectares.

It would be necessary to demonstrate ability to manage the land effectively. A lot of land is wall-to-wall sitka.....there may be possibilities for planting indigineous trees instead.

There are about forty people attending the Achray forest meetup. The bushcraft people I know are all very capable, motivated 'can-do' people.

I propose that everyone interested has a look at this link,

http://www.forestry.gov.uk/forestry/INFD-6E2KDY

and gives it some thought. There may be advantages in forming a more formal group (Scottish Wilderness Skills Group'? 'Scottish Bushcraft Educational Trust'?....would look good on a T-shirt) or even a limited company. Even if we were unable to purchase FC land, it could be a useful vehicle to lease woodland, or when seeking permission to use woodland for a weekend.

Think about it. There would be a lot of effort involved, but there is potential for acquiring and protecting land, reverting it to Caledonian forest, teaching bushcraft, using sporting rights to hunt sustainably, etc, etc.

Thoughts in advance of the meet welcome.

 

[lardbloke]

I have always loved the idea of a group of like minded people on BCUK purchasing thier own plot. This idea has come up on here a few times before. It always starts out with everyone thinking its a great idea and then it just goes dead. I think one of the problems is obviously financial, the purchase on a reasonable size of woodland can be very expensive and then we are faced with location, is is suitable for all ??
I would be very interested in the idea pending the financial costs, but if there were lots of us then this might appear viable...

 

[Doc]

You are right. Everyone thinks it's a great idea, and then it fizzles out.

The group purchase idea runs like this: say five acres on sale for £16K. Forty member/shareholders each chip in £400 and each own an equal share in the asset.

There are lots of flaws with this idea:
- you pay the full commercial price
- not everyone has that sort of money - it is not socially inclusive. Bushcraft should be for everyone.
- if non-members come to the meets then there could be ill feeling, as they have not contributed
- those living closer would get more use than those further away.
I do not think it is achievable.


I think a better way is through a charitable trust or charitable limited company, with clear aims of education and conservation. Anyone sharing these aims can join for a modest subscription. We would then be eligible for grants/tax benefits/fundraising opportunities/more favourable treatment by FC, council, etc. Initially we could use sites like Achray while raising money, and then consider leasing land for a year. If a field archery club can lease land then we surely could too, and probably at a similar cost of £30-£40 a year per member or so. If all goes well with fundraising and stability of the group then land could be purchased.

 

[troy]

We have a solution on this matter, depending on how far people are willing to go, which we can discuss at the meet.

 

[MagiKelly]

Hi Doc

Remeber how we got the use of the Loch Achray site, Stuart, who works for the Forestry Commision

He is on holday for another week and a half but I believe he will be able to supply a lot of the information we would need, including which sites would be available to buy.

 

[Eric_Methven]

This all sounds extremely positive. I look forward to discussing all the possibilities at the meet. I think the idea of a trust that would attract funding sounds great. There's lots of bodies taking this route so it's probably the better way to go. There's absoluitly no reason for the leased/rented woodland not to make money as well by producing value added woodland products to sell which would increase income towards funding for the purchase of the woods.

Eric

 

[Big Geordie]

With you on this doc. I'm a director of CVS and that is exactly what we do...charity, limited company... ability to fundraise.. for the purposes of furthering education etc.
access to grants.

I would participate.Great idea.

George

 

[Doc]

Looks like there will be plenty to discuss round the campfire this weekend!

 

[EdS]

keep me posted I may just have a little spare cash that I want to put towards a wood.

 

[Doc]

I've done a bit more research and spoke to a few people. It is good news and bad news.

Lots of local community groups have acquired community woodlands. The money comes from local fundraising and to some extent grants. Furthermore, if you improve woodland (eg by planting native trees) then 90% of the cost can be covered by grants. Some groups have been able to do the improvement at low cost by using volunteer labour, but have been able to claim the full commercial cost of the work, and used the extra money to repay the loan used to buy the land!

BUT - and it is a big but- the work involved is tremendous. There is a lot of responsibility and potential for disaster. I am not aware of any nationwide, as opposed to local, group doing this. Failing to return accounts for a limited companty means large fines for the directors. It might be possible to drum up enthusiasm, money and labour in a local community group but in a scattered group it would be ten times as difficult. And sustaining it would be worse. People might find they were spending all their spare time on mundane land management matters instead of learning/practising bushcraft. As a formal group there might be a need for expensive insurance, child protection policies, risk assessments, etc, etc. I don't know about you but I go to the woods to escape all that!

The other point is simple: in Scotland, is it worth it? Scottish Access law, like the Nordic Allesmanratten lets you camp, walk, gather berries, probably light fires (where definitely safe) and canoe. We have public rights to fish in the sea and hunt on crown foreshore and fishing inland is often obtainable for a few pounds. We have just had a brilliant weekend at a superb location for a trivial outlay. What are the advantages to owning land when we already have all this? The situation in England is rather different of course.

Weighing it all up I can see that it would be very difficult to take this forward, and the gain may be very small. Having said that, if anyone finds a local community woodland group being set up, it would be a good thing to be involved in, and may open the door to using the land for bushcraft.

 

[redcollective]

If it's that much effort we could all just support a Woodland trust and protect a wood for the sake of it and future generations.

What about the Woodland Trust?

BCUK could set up a sort of 'official BCUK' donation page on the Just Giving website a start raising money now.

Hugh Sawyer, the chap who is living in the woods and documenting it on his blog is doing it, why can't we?

 

[MagiKelly]

If it's that much effort we could all just support a Woodland trust and protect a wood for the sake of it and future generations.

What about the Woodland Trust?

BCUK could set up a sort of 'official BCUK' donation page on the Just Giving website a start raising money now.

Hugh Sawyer, the chap who is living in the woods and documenting it on his blog is doing it, why can't we?

Whilst supporting the Woodland Trust is a good thing it is NOT going to help with finding somewhere to bushcraft. In fac t it may have the opposite effect. Bushcraft activities such as fires, wild camping, hunting etc will not be allowed on Woodland Trust owned woods except in Scotland where they are unable to stop these.

 

[redcollective]

Whilst supporting the Woodland Trust is a good thing it is NOT going to help with finding somewhere to bushcraft. In fac t it may have the opposite effect. Bushcraft activities such as fires, wild camping, hunting etc will not be allowed on Woodland Trust owned woods except in Scotland where they are unable to stop these.

Hi John,

I can appreciate that and do also see it from that point of view - I couldn't agree more - I'd like nothing more than this idea of setting up an area to get off the ground. See it as a third option. No 1 option is yes - get some space set aside where folk can practice up and keep developing knoweldge of bushcraft. However if there's a choice between other option being:

* It's too hard, let's not bother
or
* Injecting a bit of this communities energy into something else which protects the woodland we all love so much (that while not directly benefitting the members of BCUK, perhaps benefits society). . .

I know which one I'd rather take. I guess what I'm trying to say is if for whatever reason this idea never gets off the ground, let not make that the end of it altogether.

Thanks for listening.

 

[bilko]

I think it's an excellent idea
I have often thought about owning my own wood but the restrictions even when purchased have put me off let alone the financial outlay.
I think £400 would be manageable with some sacrifice but for a lifelong place to practice bushcraft and perhaps camp as well without the problems we all face aswell as the social side. Well it's just brilliant
yes it would be better to be in England.
Isn't there a law in Scotland where people can come and set up camp wherever they like? cobber or something?
I say England purely for selfish reasons as i live in London however i would not be adverse to driving for a few hours.

Please inject your support and ideas people as it would be such a shame for this to become another non event. I don't mean that to sound patronising BTW
The most i can offer is cash and labour. Perhaps along with the lagal document we could have a sort of thing that says ...one should contribute 10-15 hrs mandatory labour over the course of the year to get and keep the place up to scratch. And hold specific days which count as your annual contribution which could be stamped on the back of a card. Of course the day would finish with a campfire where we could all have a drinky .
People offering legal or other valuable skills could be exempt the labour hours in payment of their services etc. Of course, there would have to be a bunch of extremely commited peeps to do all the admin and law stuff, that's where these things sometimes fall down