Scottish air gun licence
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Absolutely wrong. Totally wrong.
In the UK if you are threatened and you can't escape (or have have reason to think you are trapped), you are allowed to defend yourself with whatever comes to hand. Could be a knife, a bat, a poker; or even a gun. Someone enters your house and makes threats? You can stab them to death.
What you are *not* allowed to do is to tool yourself up in anticipation of an imagined need to defend yourself.
Toddy, Oakleaf, I agree with much of what you've suggested as well; Backing responsible ownership, encouraging education and training, sport, clubs, etc. My main disagreements are only on two issues:
1. That further restrictions would have any real effect.
2. That self defense isn't a legitimate use for firearms. Please take this with full understanding that I'm talking about real, legitimate self defense, NOT drunken brawls.
And I appreciate the cultural differences as well. Item #2 above is probably the widest gap between our cultures. Well, that and the fact that we generally consider air rifles as kids' toys. Take that with the knowledge that our air guns are also considerably weaker than your though.
1. That further restrictions would have any real effect.
2. That self defense isn't a legitimate use for firearms. Please take this with full understanding that I'm talking about real, legitimate self defense, NOT drunken brawls.
And I appreciate the cultural differences as well. Item #2 above is probably the widest gap between our cultures. Well, that and the fact that we generally consider air rifles as kids' toys. Take that with the knowledge that our air guns are also considerably weaker than your though.
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I was being sarcastic. I know that yes, you can defend yourself there, but I also know that many here on the forum (and many, many more that I knew personally while living there) can't fathom that it would be remotely legal. It also seems pointless to have the right to defend yourself but being prohibited from an effective means to do so.
Mind you perception's not necessarily much better here. While I worked as a corrections officer, many of the officers on duty in the towers expressed disbelief that they were expected to actually shoot inmates attempting to escape. I wonder what they thought the weapons were in the tower for?
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I've got a gun , use it at the range for HFT, and if I need to get a licence for it, so what's , the law is intended to keep airguns out of the hands of kids.
And talking as someone from North of the boarder, I will most definatly be voting Yes.
Aye 18/9/2014
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We've had this law over here for years, stop yer moaning
My first airgun was a BSA 177. It was a nice wee thing, accurate, didn't weigh so much that it was a pain lugging it around. The washers needed replaced often, the spring bust twice that I mind. My bother had a 22, a meteor iirc. He had more bother than I had, our neighbours kids had something popular and 'new', and all I mind was that they were 22's.
Then Mark got a new one and Robert ended up with a pellet in the white of his eye from a ricochet from it. It was a pump airgun, and everyone (I didn't, I'd outgrown playing with guns) upgraded to more powerful guns, and the one that Son2 has is more powerful yet.
Guns aren't weaker than they were; they're just more carefully 'measured' than they were when we were kids. The boys used to shoot at each other with them when I was young; the whole sodjers thing
They knew damned fine they weren't supposed to, but it only stung a bit....until the new guns came in.Honestly; if I see someone with an airgun over the burn, I'll phone the police. Fine in their own garden (the nothing outside rule holds) or where permission is given for shooting vermin or rabbits. Sport as in competition shooting, fine.
Otherwise, no, not in such a populated area.
Folks already have licences for shotguns, rifles and so on; another one for the airgun isn't going to be any more fuss.
M
People,
This occurs time after time and is a short cut to thread closure, debate over - in part hence my last post above.
The Defence issue is frankly ( no pun ) dead in the water regards the UK. My view is that there is no faster way to turn any neutral person anti. Above all its a non entity ( fought hard not to say non issue! ) No normal issue FAC has been made out on the UK mainland conditioned for 'self defence'. It is a whole other topic from the UK shooting scene and like the USA parallels simply a diversion that is not needed.
We've a mound of woe to work, additionals we don't need!
At risk of sounding like Crime Watch - the fear of crime utterly outweighs the likelihood of it. The cost of one handgun will by you hours of personal safety training and make sure that you remove yourself from the trouble before it arises. Far more useful.
Please - I'm not being divisive, but the central issues need focus at this time. Not an instruction, just a request.
This occurs time after time and is a short cut to thread closure, debate over - in part hence my last post above.
The Defence issue is frankly ( no pun ) dead in the water regards the UK. My view is that there is no faster way to turn any neutral person anti. Above all its a non entity ( fought hard not to say non issue! ) No normal issue FAC has been made out on the UK mainland conditioned for 'self defence'. It is a whole other topic from the UK shooting scene and like the USA parallels simply a diversion that is not needed.
We've a mound of woe to work, additionals we don't need!
At risk of sounding like Crime Watch - the fear of crime utterly outweighs the likelihood of it. The cost of one handgun will by you hours of personal safety training and make sure that you remove yourself from the trouble before it arises. Far more useful.
Please - I'm not being divisive, but the central issues need focus at this time. Not an instruction, just a request.
Yes, you are allowed to use lethal force in self defence of yourself or your family if you think that your/their life may in danger.
BUT, such are the gun laws in this country now, you might have difficulty explaining away the fact that you had just shot someone dead with a Section 1 firearm, or shotgun that just happened to be lying around the house and at hand.
Toddy
We keep crossing posts!
Again thank you for sticking with this - personally I much appreciate it.
Another one for airguns? Its one more for 500,000 + airguns. The current set up is failing existing FAC & SGC holders. This system will extend a flawed system - and its unlikely they will seek to fix it as part of the process. Airguns will be cobbled on, the system will be overloaded and things will fall through the cracks - its happened time and time again. Net result will not be what the avowed intention is.
Fix the whole and do it rationally by all means. But there is no fix here, just frustration.
We keep crossing posts!
Again thank you for sticking with this - personally I much appreciate it.
Another one for airguns? Its one more for 500,000 + airguns. The current set up is failing existing FAC & SGC holders. This system will extend a flawed system - and its unlikely they will seek to fix it as part of the process. Airguns will be cobbled on, the system will be overloaded and things will fall through the cracks - its happened time and time again. Net result will not be what the avowed intention is.
Fix the whole and do it rationally by all means. But there is no fix here, just frustration.
The real question though is will it really do that. I'm betting not; kids and A$$holes will always be kids and A$$holes. They'll do whatever they damn well please.
The defence question is irrelevant to 12ftlbs air rifles - yes one toddler was killed by an idiot and a fluke once. Its not a regular occurrence indeed it is so uncommon that I cannot remember the last time I heard of it happening. Public safety is no reason to ban or to licence them - the kitchen knife in Toddy's post is far more likely to kill. If you read a little closer on the less than two hundred crimes committed, the vast majority were not crimes that involved one person shooting another. Far more lives could be saved by taking the cost of this licensing scheme and addressing health issues.
So, its not about real injuries and its not cost effective.
I ask you - why do it?
So, its not about real injuries and its not cost effective.
I ask you - why do it?
Mary, with all due respect, Governments don't issue licences to Joe Public to allow them to do the things that they enjoy, they issue them to make them easier to register, and consequently easier to confiscate.
I do take Oakleaf's point, I really do.
The shooting fraternity must really feel that they are being scapegoated to cover up the deficiences in the application of the laws that we already have.
However, those laws in place then, even when applied, did not restrict folks like the two who killed Scottish children....a toddler in his brother's arms and a class of infants just started school....from legally possessing guns.
That's the rub.
Many believe that if the laws said that someone has to actually prove they require a gun, then those two and others like them, would have had a hard job to acquire them.
Knowing that he shouldn't have the air rifle in the first place would have meant that concerned neighbours would have reported Mark Bonini to the police before he started his stoned out of his skull target practice at the firemen.
What an excuse when told he'd shot wee Andrew he said he was aiming for the firemen Another one I hope hell mends him.
Ach, this argument is going round and round.
I think if this proposal does become law, then the majority will not be bothered. It's already law in Northern Ireland; there are parallels, and they manage fine.
Thomas Hamilton killed the children and their teacher using pistols; many club shooters and collectors lost their handguns with no recompense whatsoever. That that rankles is understandable, but that deed's done. If they wish to shoot in clubs and competitions then they need to change public opinion on it. That's a long road I reckon, but, we'll see. Like America's JFK killing, people here mind where they were when they heard about the Dunblane massacre.
I was shopping with a neighbour and the saleswoman put the radio up loud, and the store went silent. Dozens of women shocked to the core, half of them terrified it was their school, and every single one of us wanting home, now.
I don't think any one of those women, or the millions of other mums and dads, grans and grandpas, aunts and uncles, thought that removing all handguns was a bad thing.
How you'll change that, I don't know. I doubt I'll see it in my lifetime, but y'never know.
Sorry Oakleaf; not the vindication you could reasonably have expected from this audience, but a very real discussion.
atb,
M
The shooting fraternity must really feel that they are being scapegoated to cover up the deficiences in the application of the laws that we already have.
However, those laws in place then, even when applied, did not restrict folks like the two who killed Scottish children....a toddler in his brother's arms and a class of infants just started school
....from legally possessing guns.That's the rub.
Many believe that if the laws said that someone has to actually prove they require a gun, then those two and others like them, would have had a hard job to acquire them.
Knowing that he shouldn't have the air rifle in the first place would have meant that concerned neighbours would have reported Mark Bonini to the police before he started his stoned out of his skull target practice at the firemen.
What an excuse
when told he'd shot wee Andrew he said he was aiming for the firemen Another one I hope hell mends him.Ach, this argument is going round and round.
I think if this proposal does become law, then the majority will not be bothered. It's already law in Northern Ireland; there are parallels, and they manage fine.
Thomas Hamilton killed the children and their teacher using pistols; many club shooters and collectors lost their handguns with no recompense whatsoever. That that rankles is understandable, but that deed's done. If they wish to shoot in clubs and competitions then they need to change public opinion on it. That's a long road I reckon, but, we'll see. Like America's JFK killing, people here mind where they were when they heard about the Dunblane massacre.
I was shopping with a neighbour and the saleswoman put the radio up loud, and the store went silent. Dozens of women shocked to the core, half of them terrified it was their school, and every single one of us wanting home, now.
I don't think any one of those women, or the millions of other mums and dads, grans and grandpas, aunts and uncles, thought that removing all handguns was a bad thing.
How you'll change that, I don't know. I doubt I'll see it in my lifetime, but y'never know.
Sorry Oakleaf; not the vindication you could reasonably have expected from this audience, but a very real discussion.
atb,
M
" The following are incidents in which children and young people have accessed air weapons and killed siblings, family members, friends or others.
In almost all cases the air weapon was accessed by children because the weapon and ammunition had been irresponsibly stored by an adult; a phenomena linked to the ‘boys toys’ culture surrounding these guns.
Opportunities exist for family members, friends and neighbours to intervene in the interests of crime prevention and public safety regarding irresponsible storage of, and unauthorised access to, air weapons by children.
(Ref. Section 46 Crime and Security Act 2010:- It is an offence for a person in possession of an air weapon to fail to take reasonable precautions to prevent someone under the age of 18 from gaining unauthorised access to it)
Rhys Johnson
Ten year old Rees was killed by a 12 year old child after being shot with an air weapon pellet while playing with a friend near his home in Llansamlet, Swansea on 27th September 2009.
Jonathan Cooke
Five year old Jonathan Cooke was killed by another child after being shot with an air weapon pellet while playing with several other children and an adult in a garden during a weekend camping holiday in Wiltshire in August 2009.
Sam Shaw
Fifteen year old Sam Shaw was killed by a young person after being shot with an air weapon pellet while playing in a garden with his brother and a friend in Hayes, West London in March 2009.
Rachel Davis
Eighteen year old Rachel Davis was killed by a friend after being shot with an air weapon pellet while socialising with friends in a flat in Bury, Greater Manchester, in December, 2008.
Rashid Ullah
Eighteen month old Rashid was killed by a five year old girl after being shot with an air weapon pellet in a Birmingham garden. His father had been shooting in the back garden and left the loaded weapon out there in September 2008.
Danny Marsh
Seventeen year old Danny Marsh was killed by a young person after being shot with an air weapon pellet when he and his cousin were in a garden shed at the home of his grandmother in Maesglas in November 2007
Mitchel Picken
Twelve year old Mitchel Picken was killed by a thirteen year old child after being shot with an air weapon pellet while playing at the home of a friend whose father, a licensed gun owner, had failed to store his gun safely enabling access to the gun by children ‘home alone’ in Staffordshire in August 2006
Andrew Morton
Two year old Andrew Morton was killed after being shot with an air weapon pellet fired from a window by a young sniper while he was being carried down the road by his cousin in Glasgow in March 2005.
Alex Cole
Twelve year old Alex Cole was killed by a fourteen year old child after being shot with an air weapon pellet while playing at the home of a friend where a loaded air weapon belonging to his friend's father had been left under a bed, enabling access to the gun by the children when ‘home alone’ in Doncaster in May 2005
Scott Heap
Eleven year old Scott Heap was killed by an eleven year old child after being shot with an air weapon pellet while playing with the weapon in a friend’s bedroom in Glasgow in October 2004.
Matthew Sheffield
Fourteen year old Matthew Sheffield was killed by a thirteen year old child after being shot with an air weapon pellet while playing with friends in a garden when ‘home alone’ in Stockton on Tees in April 2001.
George Atkinson
Thirteen year old George Atkinson was killed by another child after being shot with an air weapon pellet while playing with a cousin at the home of his mother’s sister near Mold in July 1999.
Margaret McEwan
Eight year old Margaret McEwan was killed after being shot with an air weapon pellet while playing with a cousin at the home of an aunt in Warwickshire in August 1995.
Danny Sondergaard
Fourteen year old Danny Sondergaard was killed by another child after being shot with an air weapon pellet while playing with his sister and friends at home in Kent in August 1994.
Matthew Fowkes
Ten year old Matthew Fowkes was killed after being shot with an air weapon pellet while playing in woods with his sister and brother while other people were shooting nearby in Hucknall, Nottinghamshire in 1989. "
M
In almost all cases the air weapon was accessed by children because the weapon and ammunition had been irresponsibly stored by an adult; a phenomena linked to the ‘boys toys’ culture surrounding these guns.
Opportunities exist for family members, friends and neighbours to intervene in the interests of crime prevention and public safety regarding irresponsible storage of, and unauthorised access to, air weapons by children.
(Ref. Section 46 Crime and Security Act 2010:- It is an offence for a person in possession of an air weapon to fail to take reasonable precautions to prevent someone under the age of 18 from gaining unauthorised access to it)
Rhys Johnson
Ten year old Rees was killed by a 12 year old child after being shot with an air weapon pellet while playing with a friend near his home in Llansamlet, Swansea on 27th September 2009.
Jonathan Cooke
Five year old Jonathan Cooke was killed by another child after being shot with an air weapon pellet while playing with several other children and an adult in a garden during a weekend camping holiday in Wiltshire in August 2009.
Sam Shaw
Fifteen year old Sam Shaw was killed by a young person after being shot with an air weapon pellet while playing in a garden with his brother and a friend in Hayes, West London in March 2009.
Rachel Davis
Eighteen year old Rachel Davis was killed by a friend after being shot with an air weapon pellet while socialising with friends in a flat in Bury, Greater Manchester, in December, 2008.
Rashid Ullah
Eighteen month old Rashid was killed by a five year old girl after being shot with an air weapon pellet in a Birmingham garden. His father had been shooting in the back garden and left the loaded weapon out there in September 2008.
Danny Marsh
Seventeen year old Danny Marsh was killed by a young person after being shot with an air weapon pellet when he and his cousin were in a garden shed at the home of his grandmother in Maesglas in November 2007
Mitchel Picken
Twelve year old Mitchel Picken was killed by a thirteen year old child after being shot with an air weapon pellet while playing at the home of a friend whose father, a licensed gun owner, had failed to store his gun safely enabling access to the gun by children ‘home alone’ in Staffordshire in August 2006
Andrew Morton
Two year old Andrew Morton was killed after being shot with an air weapon pellet fired from a window by a young sniper while he was being carried down the road by his cousin in Glasgow in March 2005.
Alex Cole
Twelve year old Alex Cole was killed by a fourteen year old child after being shot with an air weapon pellet while playing at the home of a friend where a loaded air weapon belonging to his friend's father had been left under a bed, enabling access to the gun by the children when ‘home alone’ in Doncaster in May 2005
Scott Heap
Eleven year old Scott Heap was killed by an eleven year old child after being shot with an air weapon pellet while playing with the weapon in a friend’s bedroom in Glasgow in October 2004.
Matthew Sheffield
Fourteen year old Matthew Sheffield was killed by a thirteen year old child after being shot with an air weapon pellet while playing with friends in a garden when ‘home alone’ in Stockton on Tees in April 2001.
George Atkinson
Thirteen year old George Atkinson was killed by another child after being shot with an air weapon pellet while playing with a cousin at the home of his mother’s sister near Mold in July 1999.
Margaret McEwan
Eight year old Margaret McEwan was killed after being shot with an air weapon pellet while playing with a cousin at the home of an aunt in Warwickshire in August 1995.
Danny Sondergaard
Fourteen year old Danny Sondergaard was killed by another child after being shot with an air weapon pellet while playing with his sister and friends at home in Kent in August 1994.
Matthew Fowkes
Ten year old Matthew Fowkes was killed after being shot with an air weapon pellet while playing in woods with his sister and brother while other people were shooting nearby in Hucknall, Nottinghamshire in 1989. "
M
Tell me again that these aren't firearms.
Tell me again that a licence shouldn't be required for firearms.
I don't think you really can.
"Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill said: "We have a long-standing commitment to crack down on the misuse of guns, and a licensing scheme for airguns will help address the problems that these weapons can cause to individuals and communities in the wrong hands. Too much misery and harm has been caused.
"We are not banning air weapons outright but there has to be a legitimate use for them. We do not believe that there should be half a million unlicensed firearms in 21st century Scotland.
"We are not consulting on the principle of licensing; this will happen. While our primary concern is for public safety, we do not wish to penalise those who use air weapons responsibly and who can demonstrate a legitimate use for a gun such as sport shooting or pest control".
Tell me again that a licence shouldn't be required for firearms.
I don't think you really can.
"Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill said: "We have a long-standing commitment to crack down on the misuse of guns, and a licensing scheme for airguns will help address the problems that these weapons can cause to individuals and communities in the wrong hands. Too much misery and harm has been caused.
"We are not banning air weapons outright but there has to be a legitimate use for them. We do not believe that there should be half a million unlicensed firearms in 21st century Scotland.
"We are not consulting on the principle of licensing; this will happen. While our primary concern is for public safety, we do not wish to penalise those who use air weapons responsibly and who can demonstrate a legitimate use for a gun such as sport shooting or pest control".
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Toddy
No vindication required - or expected to be honest. The debate can be a useful exercise and hopefully a chance to put views out there for consideration in a considered way ( sometimes it happens! ). However, I've taken a keen interest in the subject for decades, in various guises sitting as a sport shooter, a civil servant that had to face armed individuals, armed myself in same capacity and variations on the theme.
Throughout the one overwhelming issue has been a total lack of concensus amongst 'shooters'. This above all else has allowed so much unjust law and lost ground in the perception of the public. Good pub quiz question - in the 70/80's ( part thereof ), who was the president of the UK Practical Shooting Association? Now ponder - this was a practical shooting competition - base on gun fighting principles and orientated toward that application. So who was it? Arnie Schwazznerger? Jean Clued Von Bam? nope - Michael ' Potty Time' Bentine! Can you think of a more middle England cuddly figure? That shows the position a few decades back.
No longer and shooters can look where they may, but the real fault lays on the door step.
So no real surprises from the replies and no anticipation BCUK was a shooter hang out - shooting is just the current topic, as I said at the start, the principles apply equally to knives, land access, dogs etc etc.
The cases you cite were both ones in which not the legislation failed, but the enforcement of the existing law. In Hamilton's case, proper application of the then law would have removed legal possession of firearms from Hamilton. Conspiracy theories abound, but what is clear is that the relevant police force at the time over looked fundamental checks and did not action matters. At the same time they carried out a 'policy' of pedantically placing administrative hurdles in the way of shooters and microscopically applying subsidary rules to discourage ownership. Not opinion, fact. A favourite was tight scrutiny and counting of every round purchased - then recorded on an FAC. That line of working failed at the most horrific and base level. The new FAC has dispensed with ammo purchase recording with barely a word from anyone.
That underpins the concern of the new proposal for me - it weakens our safety, not improves it.
Good reason - Hamilton was a club member - immediately satisfying even current 'good reason' requirements. The proper question was 'good person'? Much more relevant and better achieves the stated aim.
But would it matter - Michael Ryan held as many 'off ticket' firearms as on.
The angst Toddy so kindly recognises is driven by both the injustice of treatment of a by definition hugely law abiding part of the community, but by their intrinsic recognition that the measures will not achieve what they are avowed to do.
No vindication required - or expected to be honest. The debate can be a useful exercise and hopefully a chance to put views out there for consideration in a considered way ( sometimes it happens!
). However, I've taken a keen interest in the subject for decades, in various guises sitting as a sport shooter, a civil servant that had to face armed individuals, armed myself in same capacity and variations on the theme.Throughout the one overwhelming issue has been a total lack of concensus amongst 'shooters'. This above all else has allowed so much unjust law and lost ground in the perception of the public. Good pub quiz question - in the 70/80's ( part thereof ), who was the president of the UK Practical Shooting Association? Now ponder - this was a practical shooting competition - base on gun fighting principles and orientated toward that application. So who was it? Arnie Schwazznerger? Jean Clued Von Bam? nope - Michael ' Potty Time' Bentine! Can you think of a more middle England cuddly figure? That shows the position a few decades back.
No longer and shooters can look where they may, but the real fault lays on the door step.
So no real surprises from the replies and no anticipation BCUK was a shooter hang out - shooting is just the current topic, as I said at the start, the principles apply equally to knives, land access, dogs etc etc.
The cases you cite were both ones in which not the legislation failed, but the enforcement of the existing law. In Hamilton's case, proper application of the then law would have removed legal possession of firearms from Hamilton. Conspiracy theories abound, but what is clear is that the relevant police force at the time over looked fundamental checks and did not action matters. At the same time they carried out a 'policy' of pedantically placing administrative hurdles in the way of shooters and microscopically applying subsidary rules to discourage ownership. Not opinion, fact. A favourite was tight scrutiny and counting of every round purchased - then recorded on an FAC. That line of working failed at the most horrific and base level. The new FAC has dispensed with ammo purchase recording with barely a word from anyone.
That underpins the concern of the new proposal for me - it weakens our safety, not improves it.
Good reason - Hamilton was a club member - immediately satisfying even current 'good reason' requirements. The proper question was 'good person'? Much more relevant and better achieves the stated aim.
But would it matter - Michael Ryan held as many 'off ticket' firearms as on.
The angst Toddy so kindly recognises is driven by both the injustice of treatment of a by definition hugely law abiding part of the community, but by their intrinsic recognition that the measures will not achieve what they are avowed to do.
And 60 kids are killed each year on roads over 2000 seriously injured (near 20,000 with minor injuries)
57 kids die in swimming pools and rivers
these are every year
not over 25
nearly 10,000 have been killed in hospitals in some years even tho they went in for minor no where near life threatening things because of infections one guy on the IOW lost his wife and daughter in short time I say again 10,000 in a year no body bothers much bar putting up hand wash signs no media hue and cry no public out burst
the legal aspect of not allowing under 18 and unauthorised access to air guns has only come in in the last few years i.e you need to lock them up (technically even if you have no children as you may get burgled by a minor
57 kids die in swimming pools and rivers
these are every year
not over 25
nearly 10,000 have been killed in hospitals in some years even tho they went in for minor no where near life threatening things because of infections one guy on the IOW lost his wife and daughter in short time I say again 10,000 in a year no body bothers much bar putting up hand wash signs no media hue and cry no public out burst
the legal aspect of not allowing under 18 and unauthorised access to air guns has only come in in the last few years i.e you need to lock them up (technically even if you have no children as you may get burgled by a minor
they are Fire arms they are covered under the Fire arms act
they are penalising those shooting responsibly as Plinking for fun in your back garden which is a big part of airguns and all most low powered ones are any use for IS not going to be accepted as good reason
he says nothing on how much it will cost to cock up the licencing of half a million items in a massively badly run licencing system not only will it be a night mare on that part it will pretty much bring the normal Fire arms licencing to a halt most already take months to sort out re issues leaving poeple without a FAC and therefore breaking the law Dorset used to take 3 weeks to check and issue a FAC now its months if your lucky (they still blame the Olympics and the cover they had to provide for Weymouth for the back log)
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