woodlands
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andyn
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
I have to say that I side with teh comments made so far by the majority of the moderators. When i first saw the ideas of a woodland purchase, i had my concerns and decided it wasn't for me (a topic i have discussed with some of the members here in more detail and has also been reflected by scanker) so didn't really participate in the discussion, but kept a-breast of ts progress. It was good to see that action was being taken and that a forum was set up so to centralise the discussion.
HOWEVER, i was a little shocked to see that once the forum was created, thesub-forums weren't just to discuss the purchase of woodland any more, and like Martyn has said have replicated some of the forums here.
Then came the skills and craft pages, again all information that IMHO would be much better centralised in a common location.....Here on BCUK, which already has an indepth resource. Why replicate, or decentralise that. You said that it was in case people came to the site looking for other information. In that case why not just have a forum that just links to here. just like the forum here that opens british blades. Not a site that I frequent, but I know that if i want that information, I go there for it.
Just my two penth worth.
HOWEVER, i was a little shocked to see that once the forum was created, thesub-forums weren't just to discuss the purchase of woodland any more, and like Martyn has said have replicated some of the forums here.
Then came the skills and craft pages, again all information that IMHO would be much better centralised in a common location.....Here on BCUK, which already has an indepth resource. Why replicate, or decentralise that. You said that it was in case people came to the site looking for other information. In that case why not just have a forum that just links to here. just like the forum here that opens british blades. Not a site that I frequent, but I know that if i want that information, I go there for it.
Just my two penth worth.
"Then came the skills and craft pages, again all information that IMHO would be much better centralised in a common location.....Here on BCUK"
Why?
I honestly cannot see why any sort of information needs to be restricted/centralised to to one location, or two, or more. Surely the more distributed the better?
I genuinly can't see the problem here.
Why?
I honestly cannot see why any sort of information needs to be restricted/centralised to to one location, or two, or more. Surely the more distributed the better?
I genuinly can't see the problem here.
I can see the need for the BES to have a forum of their own for the discussion of their woodland purchase, I cannot however see its skill pages or forums or its being open to members who are not participating in the project, as anything other than competitive with BCUK and further fragmentation of precious bushcraft knowledge and discussion and as such I agree with Martyn further promotion or discussion on BCUK shouldn't be allowed. 99% if not all of the members of BES have gotten a lot out of BCUK as we all have, this all seems a tad dissrespectful to me!
andyn
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Womble said:
Firstly, i wasn't refering to restricting any information....Theres certainly no information here that is restricted, well outside the FM forum but thats a different type of information.
Why centralised?....Because by repeating information it makes it more difficult to follow and understand if you are trying to learn. Why have 30 books that cover a bit of everything and overlap if you can have 2 or 3 that specialise....It also breaks a community and causes members to spread out, imagine it Tony tried to make this site contain all the aspects of BB. You would get some members here, some members there and a rivalry between the two as it is seen as stepping on toes of the people who originally created the idea and people will begin to take sides...Why...because it is instinct.
Anyway...i've had my say. I'll leave this thread now
I could swing both ways on this one, but I feel that everyone is taking this a bit too far... all the members of BES are BushcraftUK loyal users and so they will stay that way, and Eric has done alot for the people here... so if you think he's being disrespectful, then I think you are too.
Maybe Eric could remove a few forum categories to settle this silliness.
Maybe Eric could remove a few forum categories to settle this silliness.
I have had my doubts the same as many of you and to some extent martyn your right but Eric has said BES was set up to help with the purchase and running of a bushcraft woodland for all and will compliment BCUK, I think he's a man of his word.
Eric, Spoony and the team have worked hard on this and it can be a success for everyone and a model on how to set up simular projects elswhere. As for the web site its just like the TV if you dont like the channel turn over
Eric, Spoony and the team have worked hard on this and it can be a success for everyone and a model on how to set up simular projects elswhere. As for the web site its just like the TV if you dont like the channel turn over
I am in two minds about this development, and whether to post an opinion.
But....
I think I must have been one of the first people to click on the link posted by eric, and took a gander at the site. On reading the front page I thought great, but then noticed the forum...that's when my heart sank..."oh! no, not another forum I will have to post to" I have little enough time as it is. I also thought much as the Mods on here have said, that this was a tad below the belt. I was a coward and didn't post my concerns immediately, and have no wish to become embroiled in what has the potential to become an irrevocable split within the group. This I find very saddening.
I do not know the people involved, but from what I have read by and about Eric, I have no doubt that the site was set up in good faith around the woodland purchase, and not in competition with this site. Eric undoubtedly epitomises all that we aspire too with his wealth of knowledge and skills, and I wish the group well with their venture, but sincerely hope that the website does not simply become a carbon copy of this site...One is enough (in a GOOD way
).
But....
I think I must have been one of the first people to click on the link posted by eric, and took a gander at the site. On reading the front page I thought great, but then noticed the forum...that's when my heart sank..."oh! no, not another forum I will have to post to" I have little enough time as it is. I also thought much as the Mods on here have said, that this was a tad below the belt. I was a coward and didn't post my concerns immediately, and have no wish to become embroiled in what has the potential to become an irrevocable split within the group. This I find very saddening.
I do not know the people involved, but from what I have read by and about Eric, I have no doubt that the site was set up in good faith around the woodland purchase, and not in competition with this site. Eric undoubtedly epitomises all that we aspire too with his wealth of knowledge and skills, and I wish the group well with their venture, but sincerely hope that the website does not simply become a carbon copy of this site...One is enough (in a GOOD way
).
MagiKelly
Making memories since '67
I just hope the Bushcraft forum on Spoony's site does not draw too many away from the Bushcraft Forum on the BES site which I hope in turn will not have too much an effect on this forum
People seem to forget very quickly Several people have mentioned the pointlessness (SP) of replication of the information on this forum and that there is no point in having other bushcraft forums as we have this one. I have a huge amount of respect for Tony as through my involvement on other forums I know a little of what it takes to run a place like this. Unfortunately things sometime go wrong through no fault of any one.
Imagine if this was the only Bushcraft forum and the only source of information.
Imagine if it crashed.
Several people have mentioned the pointlessness (SP) of replication of the information on this forum and that there is no point in having other bushcraft forums as we have this one. I have a huge amount of respect for Tony as through my involvement on other forums I know a little of what it takes to run a place like this. Unfortunately things sometime go wrong through no fault of any one.Imagine if this was the only Bushcraft forum and the only source of information.
Imagine if it crashed.
I was not going to get involved in this ,BUT, I can not see what the problem is, though I do not know those involved with the B.E.S ,They are taking part in a interest they love now I have not been a member of this bushcraft fraternity that long but have read many threads on this forum concerning the purchase of woodland for the use of bushcraft.But nothing has progressed beyond the wishing stage.Now that a few have gone and done this and got there own website natural progression is to evolve which they have done for their own purposes after all this is a educational site and to show those who have interest or would like to see what it is all about they would have to have this information on their site. :You_Rock_ .
Ok ........its hard to write this post without it looking like its gunning for BES, its not , its just my version looking in at this situation.
As people will have seen I was very pro a group of us getting together and buying a woodland that we could all access in an area that was not too far away from where I live, the Harrogate proposal sounded fair ( about 1 hour 45 for me on a good day), and I honestly thought thats the path we were following.I even went up there with the intention of meeting Spoony Eric et al to take that proposal to the next level and talk about stumping up some serious cash to ge t the whole thing moving. Now things went a bit wrong and plans got changed, nothing you can do etc etc no problem.
But that wasnt really it, a wood was found for loan/rent up near Middlesboro, which personally I felt was a bit far for me to travel to regulary, so not to worry no harm done, granted I had wasted a day off but at least I was out and about etc
Then the BES site went up, good idea I thought, not to gum up BCUK's works with a few memebers getting all excited about a wood and depressing everyone else lol. So I had a look over at the site and then it changed very quickly into the incarnation it is in now.
Now with the best of intentions that site has gone up and people have been pouring themselves into it, making thier corner a bit cosier if you will, but things seem to have jumped ahead 5 or 6 steps. A bushcraft school?, courses very reasonable for members? another database of bushcraft skills ( not the same as BCUK's granted, but not too dissimilar either), if I am being honest thats all a bit much and a tad like trying to sprint before the single celled organism has even thought about crawling out of the sea.
Now I dont think its a bad thing but Alan, Stella and Eric have been very bull headed about this and basically steamrollered it through very quickly and with a decent result, they now have a wood. Of course there was going to be a BUT though, that same bull headedness has caused a bit or a ruck, noses are getting put out of joint left right and centre and as stated previously, there is a very real potential for a split in this great community, which really is something that it should never of come to, but here we are.
Lack of communication is evident on all parties part, I can only use myself as an example and say that had I known Eric, Alan and Stella had a real possibilty of a wood up near them I wouldnt have made the trip up to Harrogate, as far as I was concerned we were still buying a wood at that stage, but I didnt know any different.
Now I have no idea if Eric, Alan and Stella have or had spoken to Tony in advance of setting up BES or even if they have now, that is between those parties, but its something that probably should happen or should have happened earlier, because lets face it this is all getting a bit much now.
The BES should be appluaded, they have sourced a wood they can use and one they hope they can open up to others, weather its BCUK members or just BES members or simply just everyone. Plus the personal slap in the face I recieved prompted me to go and find a wood nearer to me that I and other BCUK members around me can use, so looking at the positives theres now two more bushcraft friendly woods in use. One hell of a result by anyones standards.
What is really needed here is a final comment from BES and one from Tony on behalf of BCUK and then this thread should be closed and thrown way back into the archives so people can get back to whats really important on here, meeting new friends, learning new skills, sharing interests and being part of a community with other like minded people.
No hard feelings, malice and nothing but best wishes
Mr Strop
As people will have seen I was very pro a group of us getting together and buying a woodland that we could all access in an area that was not too far away from where I live, the Harrogate proposal sounded fair ( about 1 hour 45 for me on a good day), and I honestly thought thats the path we were following.I even went up there with the intention of meeting Spoony Eric et al to take that proposal to the next level and talk about stumping up some serious cash to ge t the whole thing moving. Now things went a bit wrong and plans got changed, nothing you can do etc etc no problem.
But that wasnt really it, a wood was found for loan/rent up near Middlesboro, which personally I felt was a bit far for me to travel to regulary, so not to worry no harm done, granted I had wasted a day off but at least I was out and about etc
Then the BES site went up, good idea I thought, not to gum up BCUK's works with a few memebers getting all excited about a wood and depressing everyone else lol. So I had a look over at the site and then it changed very quickly into the incarnation it is in now.
Now with the best of intentions that site has gone up and people have been pouring themselves into it, making thier corner a bit cosier if you will, but things seem to have jumped ahead 5 or 6 steps. A bushcraft school?, courses very reasonable for members? another database of bushcraft skills ( not the same as BCUK's granted, but not too dissimilar either), if I am being honest thats all a bit much and a tad like trying to sprint before the single celled organism has even thought about crawling out of the sea.
Now I dont think its a bad thing but Alan, Stella and Eric have been very bull headed about this and basically steamrollered it through very quickly and with a decent result, they now have a wood. Of course there was going to be a BUT though, that same bull headedness has caused a bit or a ruck, noses are getting put out of joint left right and centre and as stated previously, there is a very real potential for a split in this great community, which really is something that it should never of come to, but here we are.
Lack of communication is evident on all parties part, I can only use myself as an example and say that had I known Eric, Alan and Stella had a real possibilty of a wood up near them I wouldnt have made the trip up to Harrogate, as far as I was concerned we were still buying a wood at that stage, but I didnt know any different.
Now I have no idea if Eric, Alan and Stella have or had spoken to Tony in advance of setting up BES or even if they have now, that is between those parties, but its something that probably should happen or should have happened earlier, because lets face it this is all getting a bit much now.
The BES should be appluaded, they have sourced a wood they can use and one they hope they can open up to others, weather its BCUK members or just BES members or simply just everyone. Plus the personal slap in the face I recieved prompted me to go and find a wood nearer to me that I and other BCUK members around me can use, so looking at the positives theres now two more bushcraft friendly woods in use. One hell of a result by anyones standards.
What is really needed here is a final comment from BES and one from Tony on behalf of BCUK and then this thread should be closed and thrown way back into the archives so people can get back to whats really important on here, meeting new friends, learning new skills, sharing interests and being part of a community with other like minded people.
No hard feelings, malice and nothing but best wishes
Mr Strop
tomtom said:
Can't agree Tomtom.There is room for more than one bushcraft site.
If BCUK can't stand the competition then it will fail.IMHO there is no fear of that happening.This is a very well run site with a strong following and I think that BES will compliment rather than detract from it.
I have registered on BES but I am still here and will stay.
I have just walked out of the jungle here in Borneo and as such I have been out of the loop and also out of contact with the rest of the BCUK Staff for the last few weeks.
Having read though this thread in its entirety and visited the newly formed B.E.S site, I must admit that I too am confused by the aims of the B.E.S
I think the acquisition of land for Bushcraft is a great idea, but I do not understand the aims of the B.E.S or how they differ from the aims of any commercial school
Would you mind I ask a few questions?
1. Is the B.E.S a bushcraft School (will it charge for its courses)?
2. If not currently, is there any intention of the B.E.S becoming a school in the future?
3. You state "We are in the process of acquiring woodland to enable us to practice bushcraft skills and have a facility to run courses and teach others"
how is this different to a commercial school buying some land to run its courses?
4. Who will the land acquired by B.E.S legally belong too?
5. How will access to B.E.S land be controlled and who will control it?
6. How do the articles on the B.E.S further the acquisition of land?
7. Why did you feel that you were unable/unwilling to submit these articles to BCUK for inclusion in the articles section?
8. How do the skills section and metal working section on B.E.S differ significantly from the forums here on BCUK and BB?
9. How do the skills section and metal working section on B.E.S contribute to the acquisition of land?
10. How will the traders section on B.E.S help raise funds for land acquisition?
Having read though this thread in its entirety and visited the newly formed B.E.S site, I must admit that I too am confused by the aims of the B.E.S
I think the acquisition of land for Bushcraft is a great idea, but I do not understand the aims of the B.E.S or how they differ from the aims of any commercial school
Would you mind I ask a few questions?
1. Is the B.E.S a bushcraft School (will it charge for its courses)?
2. If not currently, is there any intention of the B.E.S becoming a school in the future?
3. You state "We are in the process of acquiring woodland to enable us to practice bushcraft skills and have a facility to run courses and teach others"
how is this different to a commercial school buying some land to run its courses?
4. Who will the land acquired by B.E.S legally belong too?
5. How will access to B.E.S land be controlled and who will control it?
6. How do the articles on the B.E.S further the acquisition of land?
7. Why did you feel that you were unable/unwilling to submit these articles to BCUK for inclusion in the articles section?
8. How do the skills section and metal working section on B.E.S differ significantly from the forums here on BCUK and BB?
9. How do the skills section and metal working section on B.E.S contribute to the acquisition of land?
10. How will the traders section on B.E.S help raise funds for land acquisition?
BorderReiver said:
I've no doubt BCUK can stand the competition, I also dont doubt that members will be able to participate in both, I dont see however that, BES, under its current guise with certain areas of it being carbon copies of this site that it can or will compliment this site, I also dont think it should be allowed to promote its self on BCUK with out Tony having been consulted or having given it his go ahead. I think really its for him to decide weather or not BES will compliment BCUK as you say it will and to give the go ahead, its the fact this happened which seems to me less than respectful considering the work he and the mods have put in to making this site the success it is!
Stuart said:
I think a lot of questions have been answered already in a roundabout sort of way, but to clarify - here is my take on it:
Q1,2,3, - No it not a bushcraft school and is not in any way a commercial enterprise. The idea of courses (which is way off in the future) is to raise funds for the management of the woodland, tools, insurance and other incidental costs if needs must. We have free use of the land if we ensure its upkeep and carry out coppicing works and keep the existing public access open and safe.
Q4. - the land is rented (albeit FOC) and so the current landowner remains the legal owner of the land. BES are allowed to use the land for bushcrafting and running courses where needs be while ever it remains a non-commercial venture, which is the intention.
Q5. - access will be to members and to other parties invited onto the land for training purposes. The location will only be disclosed to those who are prepared to sign an agreement about how they are expected to treat the land and respect the local farming communities. Full details are yet to be decided on election of the BES committee.
Q6-10, I don't think it was suggested that this information would further the acquisition of land as such. Not all visitors to the site will be BCUK members and so there has to be information on there about what bushcrafting is all about to get them interested. There also needs to be a provision for them to discuss topics and ask questions. The topics chosen were general topics you find on all of the bushcraft forums out there (and there are plenty of them). There is no doubt and we would encourage BCUK members to continue with the posts in the BCUK forums. This is a valuable resource and knowledgeable community that anyone would be happy to be a part of.
The articles in the site were written before BCUK was born and it is likely there is some duplication between the sites in certain areas. At the end of the day there had to be a supporting web site and this information was already available to include.
Hope that clarifies the points, but I'm sure BES would welcome any further constructive questions.
Eric_Methven said:
Eric, thanks for your considered and reasoned response, I appreciate it.
I do honestly see where you are comming from, I can understand the evolotion process and where it has taken you. Although I dont know you, I'm inclined to believe your motives are genuine and others here who do know you, respect you and I have no reason to doubt their judgement.
However, I came to this thread fairly recently. Althougth I do understand that evolution of the concept has bought you to this point, I am assessing what I see in front of me at this time, which is something different to the original concept. It is a replication of the BcUK format and you are promoting it here. Regardless of how it started, that is the situation we are faced with today. It's clearly causing concern, not just amongst moderators, but generally.
A few years ago, I started BritishBlades, I had a small bushcraft section. After about six months and a lot of hard work, the membership had grown to around 500. At that time I became aware of BcUK, a brand new site with a small edged tools section. I liked the people, I liked the owner and saw there was some crossover of interests. Without prompting, I put a link up from BritishBlades, to BcUK. Tony did the same in return. We were both happy to do this as the two sites were clearly complimentary. The links have been in place ever since and Tony and I have become great friends. The sites are pretty evenly matched in size, if anything BcUK is a little busier than BB these days. But both Tony and I are still quite happy to direct folks to each others sites, because we know that it's essentially good for our members and for our own sites. No agreements were made, nothing written down. But key to this working relationship is trust. If Tony had changed the format of his forums to replicate those I had on BB, that trust would've been undermined and I would've taken the link down immediately. The relationship between BritishBlades and BcUK is a great example of two sites, that re genuinely complimentary, working together to promote each other.
What you have here seems a great idea, worthy of getting behind. But it is dependant on faith and trust - there is a lot of money involved too. I can understand that you've looked at the project and worked out the best format to promote it, in the best way you can. But I think you've taken some things for granted. There is of course, a place for as many bushcraft websites on the internet, as there are people inclined to make them. But no website owner is going to channel his traffic into a website that has essentially the same format. That would be lunacy.
Your project seems dependant on trust and also dependant on recruiting a large number of people from the ranks of BcUK. Myself and others are still puzzled over why you've elected to present BES as a bushcraft forum instead of a dedicated woodland buy forum. If it is as you say, to cover all your bases, I cant help but feel that buy trying to do this, you may have shot the project in the foot, by taking for granted the very thing you are dependant on - the good will of BcUK.
It's up to you which way you take it. Of course there is room for another bushcraft site, but you cannot seriously expect BcUK to promote and funnel traffic into it, if the format is pretty much a clone of here. If you keep it in that format, I think you are going to be pretty much on your own. At the very least, you have made the job of convincing Tony and others to back it, a hell of a lot harder for yourself.
I do believe your motives are genuine, or at least I have no reason to doubt they are. I also think the project is great and applaud your drive to get something of the ground. But given the level of trust needed to develop cross-website promotions like this, I dont understand why you elected to start a bushcraft forum in favour of a woodland buy website? Doing such would obviously raise questions over motive and clearly jeopardise the backing of BcUK.
I've raised my concerns and thankyou for taking the time to answer them. I'm not sure quite how I feel about it. Part of me understands and sympathises with the situation you are in, but I'm puzzled by some of the choices you have made. I'm sure if this project is presented in the right way, Tony and others would get behind it 100%, If you dont need or care about Tony's backing, then maybe the format you have taken is the right one. I honestly dont know. I do know if I was Tony, I wouldn't allow the promotion of BES in it's current incarnation and would feel compelled to treat it in exactly the same was as any other school or forum looking to promote itself on these pages.
The final decision on that is Tony's though.
Regards,
Martyn.
I've only just found this thread, and want to put in my two pence worth if that's ok?
I completely understand about the BES site being a problem if they are a commercial venture or are directly in competition with BCUK as that's part of the rules. But the way i understand it is that BCUK isn't a commercial venture in itself - therefore how is another resource an issue?
As to the no advertising thing, i seem to remember getting an email about some new company (Bushcraft expeditions?) starting up and giving away a space on a trip. If i understand the rules correctly - how is this different????
Also, someone said earlier that there should be a link to BCUK on any website - didn't see one there.............
(I have nothing against Bushcraft Expeditions by the way)
I completely understand about the BES site being a problem if they are a commercial venture or are directly in competition with BCUK as that's part of the rules. But the way i understand it is that BCUK isn't a commercial venture in itself - therefore how is another resource an issue?
As to the no advertising thing, i seem to remember getting an email about some new company (Bushcraft expeditions?) starting up and giving away a space on a trip. If i understand the rules correctly - how is this different????
Also, someone said earlier that there should be a link to BCUK on any website - didn't see one there.............
(I have nothing against Bushcraft Expeditions by the way)
I as some members on here know from my signature have set up my own school i have spent many hours working to source the land get insurance etc so i know about the costs and effort involved. There are many schools out there are quite a few Bushcraft forums. i have had the pleasure to work with some schools and still hope to work with more in the future. No one has the monoply on good ideas.
When creating my own site i was advised by many that I should have a forum to promote the site. i thought about this for a long time. yes it might have increased the profile of my venture but how would i make it different from BcUK. I could not find a method to make it seperate enough from BcUK to justify one in my own mind.
Eric sems a great bloke and i wish him every success. However when i looked at his site my first thought was there is another school setting up. Thats what free trade is about. no problem there. please be honest though BES is a commerical activity.
Lets have a level playing field and not accept promotion for commerical gain on forums. We as school owners should take responsiblity too and restrict any self promotion to the new sub forum.
Oh and once more good luck with your new Venture and can i borrow your land when im up that way for courses.
When creating my own site i was advised by many that I should have a forum to promote the site. i thought about this for a long time. yes it might have increased the profile of my venture but how would i make it different from BcUK. I could not find a method to make it seperate enough from BcUK to justify one in my own mind.
Eric sems a great bloke and i wish him every success. However when i looked at his site my first thought was there is another school setting up. Thats what free trade is about. no problem there. please be honest though BES is a commerical activity.
Lets have a level playing field and not accept promotion for commerical gain on forums. We as school owners should take responsiblity too and restrict any self promotion to the new sub forum.
Oh and once more good luck with your new Venture and can i borrow your land when im up that way for courses.
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