Why was the 'Why prepare' thread shut down..?

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Tony

White bear (Admin)
Admin
Apr 16, 2003
24,131
1
1,879
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www.bushcraftuk.com
As in the title...
It was a good debate and I get home from work and find it closed with no explanation.. Why....?
Why are so many threads shut down on here when a good debate is going..?
Why do we have to stick to such limited subject matter..?
We are encouraged to use the search facility where just about every part of bushcraft has already been talked about, so anything new is not new really, its already been talked over many times.
I love this site, but I am so frustrated by people not being able to express themselves without their voice being closed down. Good debate is healthy and so is arguing sometimes. Its also not a bad thing to go off topic. It seems ok for some on here to go off topic, but bad for others and they get told off and the thread is closed...
Is BCUK all about getting new members in and not caring a toss about the old members.. It does seem that way because I have seen so many old members leave the site and because of this we are losing a lot of experenced people..

Let me finish by quoting something what Martyn (an ex moderator on here) recently said...

"So what rights do you have on here? Well, you have the right to log out and go somewhere else. Beyond that, not much really, you see you are riding in Tony's car. It's not a democracy and you dont get a say. If you want the ride, you have to live with that - we all do"

Is that really the case Tony..?

I do not want to stir it all up or be a troll or whatever... I just want to enjoy this site and chat freely with those on here...
I am not saying that we should allow anything goes on here. It is a family site and I agree with that, but come on guys, let people have their say...

It must be that time of year, the nights draw in, people seem to get a bit more edgy and threads more often degenerate because of…..umm, not always sure. Generally threads get closed down because they turn into arguments and generally people that argue are the members between themselves and the problem with this is everyone thinks they are right, so who’s wrong? We get numerous emails telling us that so and so is out of order, or so and so said this and that’s wrong, who the hell do they think they are etc etc.

We then have a look and sometimes PM people, sometimes shut the thread down (sometimes without a comment as it’s better shut down than carrying on and we’re not in a position to go into long explanations) and sometimes leave well alone.

The problem is that some people see things as a good debate and other see it as a thread being hijacked, or “him, him and him are always picking on me” etc etc. It’s generally the members that are quick to be offended. I find it very interesting that what some say on here in threads they say different to other members on here, they chat about upsetting so and so, or they gleefully jump on something someone has said and rock the boat, there’s plenty of members that see themselves as the victims and yet they quite happily post with the intent of winding someone up or stirring trouble. We however have to deal with it all, I’m sitting here at 21.20 in the evening typing this because a thread got shutdown because people argue and other people snipe, stir etc.

I’ve got no problem dealing with things like this thread, it’s a serious question and I’ve not got all the answers and many things aren’t as clear cut as they seem on the surface, but hey, that’s life eh.

I don’t agree that the subject matter is limited, what limits things more is people’s behaviour in the threads. There’s certain subjects that nearly always end in fighting, politics, survival v bushcraft, laws of the land etc and these are I agree generally kept in short rein, maybe too short from what you and others are saying (that’s the beauty of a thread like this and asking the question in a well structured way) and maybe that’s something we need to look at. But and this is a big ‘but’ a lot is down to how the members handle themselves on the forum and in the threads.

Taking the survival stuff as an example, I do think that there are plenty of survival websites dedicated to survival and that’s one reason that we tend to shy away from heavy survival topics, we always have. There’s areas that go hand in hand with bushcraft where they overlap into the same thing called by a different name and there’s huge areas that complement each other but there’s some that are just inappropriate for the site and it’s the same with a few different subjects, yet time and time again they get taken into those areas and anyone that doesn’t agree gets accused of burying their heads in the sand or something much more derogatory. Have a look at the threads across the forums and see how many have been shut down for content and not because of people getting stuck in, there’s not many closed for content against those closed because of people not getting on. There’s a big difference between a thread getting off topic and people facing up for a scrap or turning it into their little play area and having a laugh about it with their mates. Generally off topic is fine, although when the person posting the topic complains we do have a look.

We try to moderate as fairly as possible and even though I know some disagree with that, it is true, no matter what we do there are always going to be people that feel like the victim and we’ve favoured someone over them, or we’ve put our own interests first, or we’re in some special club that looks after its own etc etc. Most things get left alone if they’re running smoothly and just as a point for some that have commented in this thread – I don’t close threads down that are raised with serious questions about the site.

Heck, another hour has gone by with people throwing emails and PM’s at me and others.

Bottom line, I hear what you’re saying, you can see some of a different perspective above in what I’ve written and I know that there’s right in both perspectives which is why this is a great thread, it gives us feedback that we can take on board.

You ask about this being my car, yeah it is and it always has been, that doesn’t mean to say that I’m deaf though, I built the site years ago to facilitate people getting together and talking about bushcraft, I set in place the rules and most people have no problem with them. If people talk to me I’m happy to discuss stuff that can improve the site. Some of the requests and demands from members that I get are never going to happen but rest assured that we do take on board what’s said in a thread like this.

I’m happy for people to talk about all sorts, there’s the other chatter forum as well as all the other forums on the site so there’s a facility to chat about all sorts, those that enjoy sniping and winding others up please resist, those that get wound up when someone else has a different opinion, please respect it and accept it as their opinion. We’ll try to be more considerate in what we close down and why and if you have an issue please talk to the moderators politely about it and be patient in waiting for a reply.

JonnyP, thanks for starting the thread, I’ve probably missed something out and there’s more I was going to say but it’s not really needed. It’s been a very long day and there’s still loads I need to do so I’m off :D
 

alpha_centaur

Settler
Jan 2, 2006
728
0
45
Millport, Scotland
Thank you Lithril... I do not want slagging matches either, just open and healthy debate between forum members who should be adult enough to know about this being a family forum. Talk is good...

You also bring up something else there... Survival... Last weekend I attended a very good survival course run by Footsteps Of Discovery here in Cornwall. I am very interested in survival matters. I am not a member on any survivalist forum and I am not into the end of the world is about to happen stuff. I am just interested in how to survive if in a situation which could be life threatening and I would like to be able to discuss all that on here in the forum "bushcraft and survival skills". I think there is a line somewhere and I do not know where it is, but I am not, nor wish to be a survivalist, but I am interested in the subject..
Do you know where line line should be drawn..?


Line its about as clear as, a very blurry thing. Nobody seems to know where it is
 

scoops_uk

Nomad
Feb 6, 2005
497
19
54
Jurassic Coast
Tony, I for one found your explanation helpful and reassuring. Particularly the point that bushcraft can be a broad subject touching on many different areas and it is more often Members' conduct that gets threads closed.

Certainly I hope a BCUK where individuals learned to live and let live a bit more and waded into topics they disliked a little less would see constructive members returning rather than leaving.


Scoops
 

Tony

White bear (Admin)
Admin
Apr 16, 2003
24,131
1
1,879
53
Wales
www.bushcraftuk.com
Umm, where's the line, when it's all flowing smoothly it's way away, when it gets uptight it draws closer. I appreciate that that's a bit ambiguous but it's impossible to say where a line is drawn on subjects that seem to bring out so much passion and opinion in people. I'm thinking about it though, trying to work it out :D
 

Tony

White bear (Admin)
Admin
Apr 16, 2003
24,131
1
1,879
53
Wales
www.bushcraftuk.com
Tony, I for one found your explanation helpful and reassuring. Particularly the point that bushcraft can be a broad subject touching on many different areas and it is more often Members' conduct that gets threads closed.

Certainly I hope a BCUK where individuals learned to live and let live a bit more and waded into topics they disliked a little less would see constructive members returning rather than leaving.


Scoops

Thanks Scoops and I whole heartedly agree, if people don't like the subject stay out of the thread and if they've got nothing constructive to say, stay out of the thread and let others enjoy it. An excellent rule of thumb for people to use :D
 

JonnyP

Full Member
Oct 17, 2005
3,833
29
Cornwall...
Tony... Thank you for your responce.
This has nothing to do with the nights drawing in, moon phases or anything like that. I am spending less time on here right now if anything.
Let me put it like this..
I get home from work and turn on my favourite forum and see a thread I am interested in.. I read through it and find it is a thread that has stirred folk up, maybe some arguing or a heated debate. It is closed because of that...
I cannot make my own comment even if I wanted to despite the thread originally being of interest to me. This is so frustrating.
People do argue on forums as they do in real life, but if the subject is a good one, it often gets back on track again and good debate and discussion continues. Otherwise the arguement often dies out. If it gets out of hand, then move in and sort it. Arguing is not a bad thing...Is it..? Is it better to shut people out and keep them in the dark..?
I am not trying to tell you how you should be doing this, I just want you to see it from a different perspective.
I fully understand that some subjects can be classed as possible arguementative ones, like Bear Grills, survival, Ray Mears etc and I do not know where the line is that you guys draw. I just think let folk have their say and move on..
I do appreciate that I am only 1 member among thousands and you guys have to stick to what you think is best. Its just that I have been frustrated and had to vent it, so sorry about that and for making your work load greater. I shall sit back down in the back seat and stick the dummy back in my mouth and let you carry on driving...;)
 

Shewie

Mod
Mod
Dec 15, 2005
24,259
24
48
Yorkshire
Thanks Scoops and I whole heartedly agree, if people don't like the subject stay out of the thread and if they've got nothing constructive to say, stay out of the thread and let others enjoy it. An excellent rule of thumb for people to use :D

That`s exactly it - you can see a thread turning sour from a mile off so why add fuel to the fire. For the sake of the rest of us who use this site as a learning resource and social escape, if anybody`s contribution is only to wind others up then don`t bother.
If views are so strong and nobody`s going to back down, or if the thread starts getting personal, take it to PMs.
 

Dana Hawkeye

Member
Oct 1, 2008
35
0
62
England
I am sorry Tony that my thread brought about so much trouble. I can assure you it was not my intention to do so. Please accept my apology.

regards
Dana
 
May 12, 2007
1,663
1
68
Derby, UK
www.berax.co.uk
Well i for one would like to see people post whatevever they would like to post as long as its within the rule's, and not jumped on immediately by wanabbe moderators,and old members, I'm not perfect and will admit it, and not just here to sell my knives I ,am supplying two pigs for our members at the meets and get out and meet people,I do it not to hide behind a keyboard but to meet fellow whatever you want to call it members here,I have met members in the flesh and there nice people,take Wayland Gary for instance he likes he's Viking thing whats the problem,Dana likes her Survivalist thing whats the problem.lets all stop getting up our own ****'s and live and let live :)

Bernie
 

Scots_Charles_River

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Dec 12, 2006
3,277
41
paddling a loch
www.flickr.com
Is it worth 'sticky' threading this for a week or two ?

Just a thought. :)

It must be that time of year, the nights draw in, people seem to get a bit more edgy and threads more often degenerate because of…..umm, not always sure. Generally threads get closed down because they turn into arguments and generally people that argue are the members between themselves and the problem with this is everyone thinks they are right, so who’s wrong? We get numerous emails telling us that so and so is out of order, or so and so said this and that’s wrong, who the hell do they think they are etc etc.

We then have a look and sometimes PM people, sometimes shut the thread down (sometimes without a comment as it’s better shut down than carrying on and we’re not in a position to go into long explanations) and sometimes leave well alone.

The problem is that some people see things as a good debate and other see it as a thread being hijacked, or “him, him and him are always picking on me” etc etc. It’s generally the members that are quick to be offended. I find it very interesting that what some say on here in threads they say different to other members on here, they chat about upsetting so and so, or they gleefully jump on something someone has said and rock the boat, there’s plenty of members that see themselves as the victims and yet they quite happily post with the intent of winding someone up or stirring trouble. We however have to deal with it all, I’m sitting here at 21.20 in the evening typing this because a thread got shutdown because people argue and other people snipe, stir etc.

I’ve got no problem dealing with things like this thread, it’s a serious question and I’ve not got all the answers and many things aren’t as clear cut as they seem on the surface, but hey, that’s life eh.

I don’t agree that the subject matter is limited, what limits things more is people’s behaviour in the threads. There’s certain subjects that nearly always end in fighting, politics, survival v bushcraft, laws of the land etc and these are I agree generally kept in short rein, maybe too short from what you and others are saying (that’s the beauty of a thread like this and asking the question in a well structured way) and maybe that’s something we need to look at. But and this is a big ‘but’ a lot is down to how the members handle themselves on the forum and in the threads.

Taking the survival stuff as an example, I do think that there are plenty of survival websites dedicated to survival and that’s one reason that we tend to shy away from heavy survival topics, we always have. There’s areas that go hand in hand with bushcraft where they overlap into the same thing called by a different name and there’s huge areas that complement each other but there’s some that are just inappropriate for the site and it’s the same with a few different subjects, yet time and time again they get taken into those areas and anyone that doesn’t agree gets accused of burying their heads in the sand or something much more derogatory. Have a look at the threads across the forums and see how many have been shut down for content and not because of people getting stuck in, there’s not many closed for content against those closed because of people not getting on. There’s a big difference between a thread getting off topic and people facing up for a scrap or turning it into their little play area and having a laugh about it with their mates. Generally off topic is fine, although when the person posting the topic complains we do have a look.

We try to moderate as fairly as possible and even though I know some disagree with that, it is true, no matter what we do there are always going to be people that feel like the victim and we’ve favoured someone over them, or we’ve put our own interests first, or we’re in some special club that looks after its own etc etc. Most things get left alone if they’re running smoothly and just as a point for some that have commented in this thread – I don’t close threads down that are raised with serious questions about the site.

Heck, another hour has gone by with people throwing emails and PM’s at me and others.

Bottom line, I hear what you’re saying, you can see some of a different perspective above in what I’ve written and I know that there’s right in both perspectives which is why this is a great thread, it gives us feedback that we can take on board.

You ask about this being my car, yeah it is and it always has been, that doesn’t mean to say that I’m deaf though, I built the site years ago to facilitate people getting together and talking about bushcraft, I set in place the rules and most people have no problem with them. If people talk to me I’m happy to discuss stuff that can improve the site. Some of the requests and demands from members that I get are never going to happen but rest assured that we do take on board what’s said in a thread like this.

I’m happy for people to talk about all sorts, there’s the other chatter forum as well as all the other forums on the site so there’s a facility to chat about all sorts, those that enjoy sniping and winding others up please resist, those that get wound up when someone else has a different opinion, please respect it and accept it as their opinion. We’ll try to be more considerate in what we close down and why and if you have an issue please talk to the moderators politely about it and be patient in waiting for a reply.

JonnyP, thanks for starting the thread, I’ve probably missed something out and there’s more I was going to say but it’s not really needed. It’s been a very long day and there’s still loads I need to do so I’m off :D
 

andywinkk

Full Member
Nov 12, 2007
602
0
51
wigan
www.garmentsdirectltd.co.uk
Ok I've reopened the thread, I'll admit I skimmed that one and as soon as it looked like it was turning into a slagging match I locked it before reading the last few that seemed to calm down.

We're not here to fire fight arguments all the time which is what the last few weeks have been about, we also don't want the forums to turn into a survivalist forum, there are enough of them out there already.


Isnt it your job to read properly and not skim, ????
 

Jared

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Sep 8, 2005
3,390
640
50
Wales
I think because of the niche nature of this website, that most people are on roughly the same page. There are definitely far worse forums out there with people far more clueless that feel the need to demonstrate it by posting about things they know little to nothing about. And then get abusive when someone with actual facts puts them straight.

If you find a post offensive, you really have to ignore it, (unless its real serious verging on criminal) otherwise they are guaranteed to respond and thus it goes on.
 

scanker

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Aug 15, 2005
2,326
24
52
Cardiff, South Wales
Would the reintroduction of the rep system (or some modified version of it, if it was problematic for whatever reason) help with some sort of self-policing?

I can appreciate the points both Jonny and Tony make - the problem as I see it, is that when a thread deteriorates into a slanging match/argument/to and fro baiting, no one else wants to join in and make an on-topic post. Joe Average doesn't post and all you hear are the protagonists on the forum batting it out.
 

Lithril

Administrator
Admin
Jan 23, 2004
2,590
55
Southampton, UK
Isnt it your job to read properly and not skim, ????

If this was a full time job then yes I would whole heartedly agree. I'll explain something though, I'm secondary school Science teacher, I work on average between 60-80 hours a week doing my best to be a good teacher, on top of that I help out Tony by moderating and trying to help out here, as well trying to finding time for some R&R.

Matt
 
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