Where is it going....Part 2...

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andyn

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Aug 15, 2005
2,392
29
Hampshire
www.naturescraft.co.uk
I thought it was a shame that the thread Adi Fiddler started on the 20th, “Where is it going”, was locked. In general I think it started off highlighting some interesting things that I personally think would help what BCUK can offer to it community.

I checked with the moderating team that they were happy for me to restart this, and Martyn said it was ok, so here goes…

I think over the last few months I have read, or heard about, a lot of negative things about BCUK, which I wont go into as I don’t know whether they are just speculation, spite, jealously or whatever (you get the picture), but nevertheless I have started to see some of these negative points myself and have been drawn away from the site to other communities where I see more and more faces from here.

Seeing a lot of the more senior members drifting away from BCUK makes me wonder why, sure I appreciate that over time they will start to see repetition in the type of messages that are posted and that they are going past the foundation level of bushcraft and getting evolved in more advanced things. But It would be nice to see the more experienced members stick around and post what they are up to and give us relative newbies inspiration on new things to try. This will also draw the forum away from the usual, but more often than not, amusing kit chatter that goes on. But I am also seeing a lot more strong opinions being voiced, which are sometimes going off topic and resulting in permanent bans being applied to these members…Baring that in mind, can anyone that responds to this make sure they do so sensibly and maturely so that the thread can stay open

I don’t necessarily blame the moderators for the way they handle things but at the same time I feel they don’t always help and I have often read a post made by moderators only to have a good giggle at the hypocrisy of what they are saying, or I can recall a thread where there have done things that If I was a moderator, I wouldn’t be happy with. (I’m happy to give examples if the moderators want them, but I’m not willing to air them unless asked for)

Then there’s the messages that are posted by the moderators saying things like “BCUK isn’t a democracy” or “you have no rights on BCUK” basically saying ‘we can treat you however we fancy and you have no say about it’ and yet there is a Suggestions and feedback forum…I don’t understand how a forum that relies on its members can be so blinkered on what they need to achieve. There are comments on how much money that Tony pumps into BCUK and that it is a non profit organisation as there is literally no way it could generate a profit with such a high turnover and low income…but that it is hoped that maybe one day it might be able to make some kind of profit through the magazine and subscriptions. How does BCUK hope to achieve that? (that’s a rhetorical question, I don’t expect to see a business plan) If it doesn’t listen intensively to its members and encourage them, and make them feel comfortable giving constructive criticism on how things are done, then thing will never improve or grow.

With so many new bushcraft forums cropping up, which fair enough may not YET have the amount of information or members on it as BCUK currently has, or be as well known. BCUK needs to offer its membership something that nothing else can or statements like “I don't know of any other bushcraft site with a similar scope or membership to this one in the UK” might not be applicable in a year or so.

Every negative comment I read about BCUK has always been answered with an aggressive or dismissing response by the moderating team and to be honest I expect to get one or two for this thread…(again, happy to collate a list of examples)… but this type of response saddens me…It is showing that the team that is suppose to be supporting its members is losing patience with them and losing their temper with them and are not interested in what they have to say.

Which takes me back to my earlier comment “but nevertheless I have started to see some of these negative points myself and have been drawn away from the site to other communities where I see more and more faces from here.” If the same people are chatting on other forums without complaint then why are they leaving here in the first place?

It makes me wonder if the reason that the more experienced or just the veteran members of BCUK are leaving because they are fed up with the structure of BCUK and leave to try and establish or take part in a more pleasant environment.

I personally can’t see a way that this will ever change unless there is a change of attitude.
 

bogflogger

New Member
Nov 22, 2005
355
18
61
london
Well, heres my 2p's worth on this issue.

Since joining, I have noticed a deliberate, orchestrated, campaign of provocative posting by members who obviously have an agenda of their own, which is either commercial or connected to their own websites and/or magazines.

I have also noticed that moderators are being insulted continuously, then when the poster is banned, another member of the same clique "innocently" asks why they were banned, when it is blatantly obvious that it is due to the verbal abuse that they were hurling around.

This is incredibly pointless, juvenile and boring!

If you don't like BCUK........leave!
 

Ogri the trog

Mod
Mod
Apr 29, 2005
7,157
49
56
Mid Wales UK
Hi Andy,
Its an interesting point of view you have, and not wanting to cause any upset, I'd like to post my thoughts to some of your points.
I came to BCUK from an Airgun forum where I had been posting for a few years -I still do once in a while but certainly not on the daily basis that I used to. So because I had a slight shift in interest, a forum lost a member of a few years standing. I do not doubt that similar, slight shifts in interest or specialisation are what leads some longer serving members to move on to other areas. Heck another shift in anyones circumstances and many of us would eventually drift away. However, there are small numbers of folk who return to the forum after periods away and pick-up where they left off to the benefit of the community. In so saying, there are other members of the forum who have learnt from their forebears and who can then pass on the hints and tips and the core values of the subject of Bushcraft to those starting out on their learning curve.

I have not seen much in the way of dissent about this site - but then I have not looked for it, perhaps some examples of this would help us all to form a balanced opinion. In general, I only see what is left after the moderating team have allowed it to be published, for the most part I fully agree with any removals and censors carried out. It must be difficult to edit the content of a forum where the subject matter is posted by the wide variety of members and about as broad a list of topics as we have. Any contentious subjects have to be carefully moderated as the responsiblility for them rest squarely at Tony's feet. He has to be comfortable that his team will keep him out of any legal trouble with reference to the content of his site. There will always be an armchair element though, and if those members do not know and respect the administration team, then they are going to be less responsible when it comes to posting unsuitable replies. I know that I've posted some pretty dumb replies here and, in hindsight, should have thought more before doing so.

Looking to the future, I don't doubt that BCUK will have to adapt to new challenges, but I wonder how that will be done. I do not see that a Newbies Area would help - if anyone is interested enough to join the forum they should be made to feel welcome immediately and be able to ask as well as answer on any topic under discussion - to do otherwise could alienate potentially very knowledgeable people.
Perhaps a form of regional membership would benefit. Members might be more likely to attend meetings if they didn't have to travel great distances. Weekly or monthly meets could be held for the benefit of new members. Regions could then invite neighboring regions to their nominated woods to teach and learn from smaller groups and thus better manage the numbers in question. I'm hoping that the big summer moot will continue as it is a chance for the entire membership to get together, perhaps it should be held in different parts of the country though each year.

I'm currently happy with the level of activity here and I tend to choose which threads to pay notice to and which to ignore, a kind of unconcious self moderation if you like. I try to help out where I can or point to other sources of information if I don't have an answer. I'm still enjoying learning new skills at a pace that I am confortable with. Many folk here have to juggle familly and work commitments around their chosen hobby and BCUK often has to settle for second or even third place. I envy those members who can dedicate large amounts of uninterupted time to their hobby, but it is their experience that I can draw on to further my learning.

I hope that this thread can continue to the future benefit of all concerned.

Yours

..and its about time I let someone else get a word in...

Ogri the trog
 

Martyn

New Member
Aug 7, 2003
5,252
31
55
staffordshire
www.britishblades.com
Andy, I'm gonna try and answer some of your questions as honestly and openly as I can. I'm not gonna try and make you like all the answers, you probably wont like some of them, but I will at least try and offer an explanation.

andyn said:
Seeing a lot of the more senior members drifting away from BCUK makes me wonder why, sure I appreciate that over time they will start to see repetition in the type of messages that are posted and that they are going past the foundation level of bushcraft and getting evolved in more advanced things. But It would be nice to see the more experienced members stick around and post what they are up to and give us relative newbies inspiration on new things to try. This will also draw the forum away from the usual, but more often than not, amusing kit chatter that goes on. But I am also seeing a lot more strong opinions being voiced, which are sometimes going off topic and resulting in permanent bans being applied to these members…Baring that in mind, can anyone that responds to this make sure they do so sensibly and maturely so that the thread can stay open

I don’t necessarily blame the moderators for the way they handle things but at the same time I feel they don’t always help and I have often read a post made by moderators only to have a good giggle at the hypocrisy of what they are saying, or I can recall a thread where there have done things that If I was a moderator, I wouldn’t be happy with. (I’m happy to give examples if the moderators want them, but I’m not willing to air them unless asked for)
Yes, there is some hypocracy in what we do. I'll give you an example, we dont allow commercial activity on the forums, yet we have allowed sal to research his new bushcraft knife. The ultimate aim of this is for spyderco to sell them, probably to you. If we were to follow our own rules to the letter, then we should prevent much of these discussions for being too commercial, but we have let them slide. Another example, some people may try and promote other ventures, perhaps they make and sell fire-pistons and write a review, which can be seen as a disguised advert. Again, we let it slide. Occasionally, someone will cross into commercialism that is too overt and gets moderated. But the line is blurry and one mods opinion will differ from anothers. There is some hypocracy, but in all cases, we are doing what we think is best for the forum. With regard to sals bushcraft knife, we believe the community is genuinely interested in developing this and are happy to let it slide. But sal has handled matters very well and avoided any kind of direct commercialism. It's a judgement call. It's almost impossible to draft a set of rules to cover every eventuality, so we use our discression. It's not always the same result for the same situation in every case. But generally, we get it close enough, most of the time.

It does leave us open to criticism though, particularly from people with commercial interests, who have been prevented from using BcUK to promote them. Even when the decision is bang on the money, some people will highlight "borderline" decisions by mods, as an example of how bad our decisions are. It's often just sour grapes. I dont really see any resolution to this, other than to allow BcUk to be a free-for-all, or completely and utterly ban any hint of commercialism. Both options would degrade the community IMO, so we are left with a few people making judgement calls.

Then there’s the messages that are posted by the moderators saying things like “BCUK isn’t a democracy” or “you have no rights on BCUK” basically saying ‘we can treat you however we fancy and you have no say about it’ and yet there is a Suggestions and feedback forum…I don’t understand how a forum that relies on its members can be so blinkered on what they need to achieve.
Yes, it's a bitter pill and I really dont know how to sugar it. Let me try and explain it though and even if you dont agree, please keep an open mind.

Humans have lots of rights. We have some rights given to us by our governments, we have some that have been deemed basic human rights, like the right to not be abused. But on privately owned forums, nobody (including me) has any rights at all, with the single exception of the right to leave. I dont have the right to ban people or moderate thier posts, I have the authority to do it, because Tony gives it to me, but that is not a right. He can take that authority away at any time. You dont have the right to free speach. For example, you cant post "I hate muslims" (I hope everybody realises that is just an example). You may hold that opinion, but you cant say it on here without consequences. In fact it may be illegal to say it in the UK - though I'm not sure how accurate that is, my knowldge of the new laws is sketchy.

My point is, that posting on BcUK is a privelige, not a right. That privelige carries some responsibilities on this forum, particularly with regard to the way people interact with each other. The phrase "your right to throw a punch, stops at the end of my nose" comes to mind.

The same is true for every other forum on the internet, even the most poorly moderated ones. Sooner or later, you would be banned from any of them if your behaviour is bad enough - which means that your "right to say what you want" is an illusion. It doesnt exist. There is a line in the sand in every single internet forum and the only thing that separates them, is where they draw it.

At BcUK, we draw a fairly tight line. The reason is because Tony wants this to be a family friendly site and a site where people interact with each other in a freindly and respectfull way. As moderators, we intervene when that line is crossed and you are correct, you dont have the right to dispute where the line is, or to complain about it being too restrictive for your personal tastes. It's the owner of the site who decides where those limits are and nobody else. It cant be any other way. Can you imagine what would happen if we polled the forums? "we are thinking of banning member A and would like the opinion of the members". What a nighmare. It would rain cats and dogs, brother would fight brother and hell would freeze over before we could reach a consensus, not to mention that every gory detail would have to be spread out and disected.

I remember on BB, asking the members what colour they wanted the new skin to be. About 30 pages later, the thread had to be locked because open war was about to be declared.

No, some forums try to offer some pretence of democracy, but most that do, fail miserably - at least all the ones I've seen have. Either that or they are complete chaos and are effectively unmoderated.

So, you have no rights and we cant offer decions up for public debate. I know it sucks, I know it sounds autocratic and draconian but that is the reality of the place.

The flaw with this method, is that it does differ for every moderator, because the line isnt absolutely clear. It never can be, it's always going to be a subjective thing. Again this means that some moderators will let things go, while others will act. There will be some element of hypocracy. All I can say is that we do our best to keep it as small as possible and as far as possible, we try to sing from the same book. Sometimes we fail. But not that often.


There are comments on how much money that Tony pumps into BCUK and that it is a non profit organisation as there is literally no way it could generate a profit with such a high turnover and low income…but that it is hoped that maybe one day it might be able to make some kind of profit through the magazine and subscriptions. How does BCUK hope to achieve that? (that’s a rhetorical question, I don’t expect to see a business plan) If it doesn’t listen intensively to its members and encourage them, and make them feel comfortable giving constructive criticism on how things are done, then thing will never improve or grow.
This is Tony's forum, I dont know how he intends to make money from it, or if he will succeed. But I do know, that he is the only one with the right to try. If he lets anyone else, get any kind of publicity for their venture, then that is a vtruly benevolent act, because he has no obligation to promote anyones business or alow it to be promoted.

I'll give you an example. There is a computer forum, called overclockersuk, they have 89,560 threads, 1,379,984 posts and 22,067 members. A truly huge forum. It's very dynamic, very popular and stuffed with excellent computer info. This place is owned by a computer shop called overclockersuk. The owners do not even allow a simple link to be posted on the forums to a competitors business. They do not allow the posting or heads up of any computer products, other than to their own business. Is that fair? Absolutely, it's their site, they own it and they can ask what they want.

BcUK isnt anything like that restrictive (see the spyderco example above). What it wont do, is let it overun the forums. Think about it, the only people who have ground for complaint, are people who want to use BcUK to advertise and are disallowed.

With so many new bushcraft forums cropping up, which fair enough may not YET have the amount of information or members on it as BCUK currently has, or be as well known. BCUK needs to offer its membership something that nothing else can or statements like “I don't know of any other bushcraft site with a similar scope or membership to this one in the UK” might not be applicable in a year or so.
Then we can revise it in a year or so ...or not.

Every negative comment I read about BCUK has always been answered with an aggressive or dismissing response by the moderating team and to be honest I expect to get one or two for this thread…(again, happy to collate a list of examples)… but this type of response saddens me…
Isn't that natural when you put so much of your life into something? If it's fair comment, then fair enough, but Andy, there are a small number of disgruntled folk who have fallen foul of moderation on here, some of them have a loud voice, an agenda and an axe to grind. Sometimes we hear their voices, comming through other people.

It is showing that the team that is suppose to be supporting its members is losing patience with them and losing their temper with them and are not interested in what they have to say.
Not so mate, we do value input - even critical input if the motives for it seem sound, constructive and supportive.

If people have solid ideas about how they want the site to move forward, then i'm sure Tony and the team will listen. That doesnt mean people can re-write Tony's plans for BcUK, but constructive comments are always welcome. Problem is, the criticism isnt always constructive (I refer you to the thread that got locked).

Which takes me back to my earlier comment “but nevertheless I have started to see some of these negative points myself and have been drawn away from the site to other communities where I see more and more faces from here.” If the same people are chatting on other forums without complaint then why are they leaving here in the first place?

It makes me wonder if the reason that the more experienced or just the veteran members of BCUK are leaving because they are fed up with the structure of BCUK and leave to try and establish or take part in a more pleasant environment.

I personally can’t see a way that this will ever change unless there is a change of attitude.
OK, so you have some issues here, I dont think all of yopur issues can be answered to your complete satisfaction, but I for one am willing to listen to constructive suggestions.

So, lets have it, what kind of changes would you like to see. You've listed your criticisms and I know this is more than just a rant, so the criticisms need to be followed with suggestions for solutions?
 
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RAPPLEBY2000

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Dec 2, 2003
3,195
12
47
England
hi just as a reaction to this point made by or

Perhaps a form of regional membership would benefit. Members might be more likely to attend meetings if they didn't have to travel great distances. Weekly or monthly meets could be held for the benefit of new members. Regions could then invite neighboring regions to their nominated woods to teach and learn from smaller groups and thus better manage the numbers in question.
well we already have regional meets organised on this forum.
i have had trouble in one area, creating a "brother/sister" group,
i think there are alot of ego's about which is always damaging to a forum or group like this.

my problem was this, the east anglia group (which i started) was covering a huge area that logistically i coulden't get to, so i thought "start a more local group" :) for people in the are without transport. seemed a fine idea to me.
the moment i started it i had all sorts of suggestions that it was something underhand or unnessesary, well within a short period the new group i started has about 12 members, and we've had 3 meets and a camp coming up, everyone in the region of east anglia has been invited, surely i haven't done anything wrong?

the problem is this, once groups start it's great, but it dosen't take much for cliques to form, which may be one problem, in regional meetings.

i remember going to one meet a long time ago and felt that i had plenty to offer in instruction and advice, but, people had already decided they were in charge, etc so the friendly atmosphere was lost in an ego tension.

to be fair it happens in all walks of life, when 2 equally matched teachers are forced to teach together, i feel this could happen at regional meetups.
i think it's best to stick to small frendly groups than large group meetings.
 

Martyn

New Member
Aug 7, 2003
5,252
31
55
staffordshire
www.britishblades.com
Ogri the trog said:
Looking to the future, I don't doubt that BCUK will have to adapt to new challenges, but I wonder how that will be done. I do not see that a Newbies Area would help - if anyone is interested enough to join the forum they should be made to feel welcome immediately and be able to ask as well as answer on any topic under discussion - to do otherwise could alienate potentially very knowledgeable people.
Perhaps a form of regional membership would benefit. Members might be more likely to attend meetings if they didn't have to travel great distances. Weekly or monthly meets could be held for the benefit of new members. Regions could then invite neighboring regions to their nominated woods to teach and learn from smaller groups and thus better manage the numbers in question. I'm hoping that the big summer moot will continue as it is a chance for the entire membership to get together, perhaps it should be held in different parts of the country though each year.
Excellent well balanced post Ogri, particularly the constructive suggestions. You have rep.
 

Keith_Beef

Native
Sep 9, 2003
1,331
237
51
Yvelines, north-west of Paris, France.
andyn said:
Then there’s the messages that are posted by the moderators saying things like “BCUK isn’t a democracy” or “you have no rights on BCUK” basically saying ‘we can treat you however we fancy and you have no say about it’ and yet there is a Suggestions and feedback forum…I don’t understand how a forum that relies on its members can be so blinkered on what they need to achieve.
Live with it. I can.

BCUK is perhaps more like a benevolent dictatorship, but it is one which you freely choose to join or to leave.

The very fact that there is the chance to air your views, and that you don't get banned or silenced for constructive criticism is ample eviden ce that the dictatorship is benevolent.

Oh, that and the fact that participation is free of charge (even though contributions are encouraged).

Or you could perhaps see it as the very epitome of the free market, which is a term often used is conjunction with freedom and democracy.

The point is, if you don't like the way BCUK is run, you can always go off and join or start a forum that caters more for your own ideals. I don't think anybody here would castigate you for that, so long as it was done in good faith.

K.
 

Martyn

New Member
Aug 7, 2003
5,252
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55
staffordshire
www.britishblades.com
RAPPLEBY2000 said:
...the moment i started it i had all sorts of suggestions that it was something underhand or unnessesary, well within a short period the new group i started has about 12 members, and we've had 3 meets and a camp coming up, everyone in the region of east anglia has been invited, surely i haven't done anything wrong?
No, nothing at all.

the problem is this, once groups start it's great, but it dosen't take much for cliques to form, which may be one problem, in regional meetings.

i remember going to one meet a long time ago and felt that i had plenty to offer in instruction and advice, but, people had already decided they were in charge, etc so the friendly atmosphere was lost in an ego tension.
This is the problem and it almost always happens. The worry from BcUK's point of view, is that these cliques act as a sort of union. If one of their cohort gets moderated, then the mods have to face the wrath of the whole clique. Fair play and reason doesnt enter into it. It can spiral into a succession of conflicts, with a big blast radius and lots of collateral damage. Groups are a good thing if they are run well, but the potential for them to degenerate into a gang, is a clear and present danger.

to be fair it happens in all walks of life, when 2 equally matched teachers are forced to teach together, i feel this could happen at regional meetups.
i think it's best to stick to small frendly groups than large group meetings.
My old biology teacher once said "cliques are cancers in every sense, they are just as easily formed and just as damaging". I didnt really get it, untill I started working on a unit with 120 nurses.
 

Tadpole

Full Member
Nov 12, 2005
2,842
20
56
Bristol
I’m not sure if I will post this or just try to organise it in my head so I can see where I am going.

Rights

Imagine, if you will, a public house, where you and your mates go to drink and put the world to rights. Now you are a regular, and you even have your own pewter pint mug over the bar (ok one with a glass bottom if you like) and on a Wednesday after football you sit in the same seat on the same table, drinking the same beer and taking about the same thing.
Does that give you the right to tell the landlord to put his prices down, or paint the bar in your team’s colours? No of course not. He’s the boss; he owns and runs the place. If you don’t like the fact he’s banned your BBF (best best friend) for fighting, what can you do? Pretty much nothing, other that appeal to the landlord better nature in a civilised manner, nor would you expect to.

Now this is the part I don’t understand about fori in general, you wouldn’t do it in the real world, so why do people insist on doing it online (trying to throw their weight about) is it because in the real world there would be a huge guy in a black bomber jacket, his name tattooed on his knuckles so he can’t forget it, there to stop you? Or is it because on the net everyone feels that they have “the Right”. Rights that in the real world they would not dream of expressing.

Moderators here are all 'good people' or Tony would not have picked then, they have a hard job, a thankless job. If they come down on someone they get criticised, if they don’t, they get criticised. They have to not only give up their free time to read all the posts, they also have to answer thousands of questions PM’d to them by new people like me. All this take them away from posting and the reason they came here in the first place, to enjoy the boards.
None of the Mod’s I have read come over as on a “power trip” or “eager for Glory” (you can tell, as they let the flames fly skyward before mod’ing the threads and banning people just to show they can)

Where is the site going?
I hope forwards, towards what or where I don’t know, or care really, half the fun of travel is the journey. If you think of this site as a school and the newbie’s as first year pupils, then why is it hard to understand the all first years (newbie’s) ask the same questions, but no one is rude about it and goes red in the face and yells “ look little Johnny, I answered this question five years ago when little Jamie was here. Go look it up” One day those first years will be sixth-formers (showing my age now) and either they will be giving the newbie’s the same attitudes they received (the shaking of heads, the sucking of teeth, the “god not again” “I’ve told you a million times” attitude) or they will try and show the respect they were shown and pass on the knowledge that the “old-boys” passed on to them. It’s up to the people here now to set the tone and the standard. Treat new people badly and that will perpetuate.

Joining in the mud slinging in public or private, emails or PM’s just makes the whole site that little bit dirtier. Ok no one is perfect we all like to moan and complain. I think we all ought to remember we are in someone else’s pool, Tony owns the ball, and treat this as, a for the most part free, a privilege and act accordingly.
 

scanker

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Aug 15, 2005
2,326
24
48
Cardiff, South Wales
Good post, nice analogy. As I moderate on another forum, in which we recently had to ban someone (only the second ban in two years), I hope I can see both sides of the coin. I've had to tell members exactly the same as Martin is (I think he put it slightly better though). It is true of every forum - someone own it, they are responsible for it and they make the rules.

As a mod on another forum I can also honestly say FMs don't know the half of what's gone on when someone gets banned. In my case, one of the (many) reasons for banning member X was because of a personal attack on member Y. Unfortunately for us, member Y was the most vocal in calling for the reinstation of member X. They still don't know why member X was banned, but it all seems to have calmed down now. The point I'm (long-windedly) trying to make is that the moderator's job is unpaid, often unpleasant and under-valued. It's irrelevant whether you agree with their every decision or not The fact is that in my experience you're probably not holding the same cards they are, and might well make the same decision as them if you were.
 

Pappa

Need to contact Admin...
May 27, 2005
264
2
43
South Wales
www.plot55.com
I think there's a little I can add here.

I have crossed paths with the moderating team on three occasions:
  • One of my posts was removed as it mentioned that part of a certain common plant was psychoactive.
  • Over commercial links in my signature.
  • Over an argumentative thread which eventually became quite personal.
At the time, I felt that the first decision was unfair as other similar posts were often left in. With hindsight, I feel it was a good decision (as this is a family site), and that other similar post that have been left in are probably just missed by moderators.

The second occasion was entirely fair and dealt with very well.

On the third occasion, particularly after hearing how draconian the moderators can be, I was expecting some form of warning, but the thread was locked an no further action was taken (except perhaps that the moderator invloved made a mental note of my name :D ).

My perception of the moderating team is mixed. On the one hand, I've seen (or more often heared about) justice being dished out (without always knowing the reasons why) in what appears to be a heavy-handed manner. Also, the comments of a minority of members who complain about the supposed heavy-handedness have (I suspect) had a large impact on my own perception. On the other hand, my own direct experience of the moderators has always been positive and fair.

Essentially, as has been mentioned previously, I think the problem is basically one of perception. The limited view of events some users get of disagreements, coupled with reading negative comments about the mods that are made by a small minority of users, creates the perception of unfairness.

The only way I could see an improvement is if, particularly when users are banned, but also when other big moderating decisions are made, time is taken to explain to the members what action was taken and the reasons for this (although I know this often occurs already). I don't thing this is necessary because we have some kind of democratic right to know, but just to prevent members from gaining the perception that decisions are unfairly meted out.

Anayway, there's my ha'porth.

Pappa
 

andyn

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Aug 15, 2005
2,392
29
Hampshire
www.naturescraft.co.uk
Thanks for the replies, an interesting morning read.

ogri the trog said:
Its an interesting point of view you have, and not wanting to cause any upset...
Dont worry about that mate, I wouldn't have aired my views if I was going to get upset by the responses that disagree with my thoughts. I appreciate your comments and think you have raised some very good points.

Martyn, a lot of your responses appear to be about commercial ventures posting on the forum. Although I am sure that this happens and as you say there is a certain amount of disguised advertisement on here that I see, its not really the point im trying to make.

I also resent the comments that your making which, to me, sound as though you are saying that their is a hidden reason why I am posting this. Which I can clearly and happilly say that I am not. The reason I expressed by point of view was that, as a member that appreciates the presence of BCUK, would like to see the negative bits of it that I see and hear about removed or explained. Which, from what you are saying I hope is happening as It is answering a lot of questions I keep hearing about. I also speak for myself and am expressing my point of view not one of a group with hidden interests.

If, as you say, you feel you are hearing other people's voices in what I'm saying....Doesn't that say something else to you?


This is kind of taking a stap back but one point though, and I wasn't going to go into this but it seems you are mis-understanding what i'm trying to say, the hypocrasy that I was reffering to was not that you let some commercial ventures slide by un-noticed but in the way that you as moderators act as individuals on the forum. Then when someone does the same thing you breath down their neck. I'm sure everyone has heard the saying "one rule for them and one for us" or how ever is it phrased - Is this really the way that BCUK wants to be thought about?

Personally I have always thought of moderators as more than just what the word implies, they are also amasadors for the forum and should act as a figure head to how they expect others to behave. But anyway I digress...

martyn said:
OK, so you have some issues here, I dont think all of yopur issues can be answered to your complete satisfaction, but I for one am willing to listen to constructive suggestions.

So, lets have it, what kind of changes would you like to see. You've listed your criticisms and I know this is more than just a rant, so the criticisms need to be followed with suggestions for solutions?
Martyn, I don't expect all your answer to satisfy my questions, the world doesn't work like that. You can only hope that your decisions please enough people that the majority remain. Kind of like elections I suppose, as the other alternatives can be seen as other candidates and so forth.

Martyn, you say you "know this is more than just a rant". I'm glad you say that, but I hope you can actually see what i'm trying to do, rather than just being on the back foot and thinking that I'm trying to be under-handed in my way and hurt or damage BCUK. This is not my intention, and if you really think that this is what this post is about....Then why did you explicitly say that I could go ahead and post it? Are you just trying to make a justification to remove me from the forum? If so just let me know that Im not welcome and I will leave of my own accord. But I hope i am just misunderstanding some of your statements.

You ask for suggestions on a way that could resolve my points...well I do have some but I think some have already been pointed out in some of the replies that have been made...

for instance...
tadpole said:
Where is the site going?
I hope forwards, towards what or where I don’t know, or care really, half the fun of travel is the journey. If you think of this site as a school and the newbie’s as first year pupils, then why is it hard to understand the all first years (newbie’s) ask the same questions, but no one is rude about it and goes red in the face and yells “ look little Johnny, I answered this question five years ago when little Jamie was here. Go look it up” One day those first years will be sixth-formers (showing my age now) and either they will be giving the newbie’s the same attitudes they received (the shaking of heads, the sucking of teeth, the “god not again” “I’ve told you a million times” attitude) or they will try and show the respect they were shown and pass on the knowledge that the “old-boys” passed on to them. It’s up to the people here now to set the tone and the standard. Treat new people badly and that will perpetuate.
My point was that there is an attitude issue on BCUK and some of it is coming from the moderating team, which as i was saying...will wash off onto its members.

I don't think they nessecarilly is AN ANSWER except that time and paitence needs to be given to posts and that this view that everyone is posting because of some alternate agenda is not a positive attitude to take when responding to posts, it is not only povoking but it is also one that will make people wonder why they are here.

As I said, I feel I get a lot out of BCUK, some of who I have learnt a lot from a feel they offer a lot of themselves to the forum. But if it is filtering people away from it because of its attitude towards people then isnt it time to think about that now rather than in a years time when the damage will already have been done?

I don't pretend to have all the answers, but i do hope that other people can come forward with opinions that will be listened to and taken on board. I feel that most people post and come forward with these opinions because they care and are trying to help, not destroy.
 

andyn

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Aug 15, 2005
2,392
29
Hampshire
www.naturescraft.co.uk
bogflogger said:
Well, heres my 2p's worth on this issue.

Since joining, I have noticed a deliberate, orchestrated, campaign of provocative posting by members who obviously have an agenda of their own, which is either commercial or connected to their own websites and/or magazines.

I have also noticed that moderators are being insulted continuously, then when the poster is banned, another member of the same clique "innocently" asks why they were banned, when it is blatantly obvious that it is due to the verbal abuse that they were hurling around.

This is incredibly pointless, juvenile and boring!

If you don't like BCUK........leave!
Bogflogger,

Your response surprises me...

You say that you think this is pointless.... Perhaps you feel it is pointless...I however don't, and I know that others share my view that this isnt pointless and that we care about the direction that BCUK is heading in and want to ensure that is remains a great place to be.

Personally I'm not sure your post is very structured at all and if anything is detremental to the discussion that I was hoping and fortunatley has happened since your post.

I wont leave BCUK unless expressly asked to by someone with a bit more influence behind them than yourself.

I welcome your opinion, but try and be constructive, for everyones sake.

thanks.

[EDIT] If like WW states that I have misunderstood the agression behind you your post, then I appologise.
 

weekend_warrior

Full Member
Jun 21, 2005
758
10
56
North London
andyn said:
Bogflogger,

Your response surprises me...

You say that you think this is pointless.... Perhaps you feel it is pointless...I however don't, and I know that others share my view that this isnt pointless and that we care about the direction that BCUK is heading in and want to ensure that is remains a great place to be.

Personally I'm not sure your post is very structured at all and if anything is detremental to the discussion that I was hoping and fortunatley has happened since your post.

I wont leave BCUK unless expressly asked to by someone with a bit more influence behind them than yourself.

I welcome your opinion, but try and be constructive, for everyones sake.

thanks.
Andy,

To be fair, I'm not sure thats what Bogflogger meant - I read it that that activity of insulting mods, own agenda etc.. was boring and pointless and that if those people didn't like it they should leave. I don't think he was refering to this thread. 'course I could be wrong... :eek:
 

bogflogger

New Member
Nov 22, 2005
355
18
61
london
My position on this is perfectly clear, if you wish to deliberately misinterpret what I have said, thats fine with me.

At the end of the day, this is Tony's website, and HIS decision about which direction it will take.

All of this discussion is just compeditive polyuria.
 

MagiKelly

Making memories since '67
andyn said:
<<SNIP>> I also resent the comments that your making which, to me, sound as though you are saying that their is a hidden reason why I am posting this. Which I can clearly and happilly say that I am not. <<SNIP>>

If, as you say, you feel you are hearing other people's voices in what I'm saying....Doesn't that say something else to you?
I suspect that Martyn is perhaps a little suspicious because both Adi Fiddler and yourself as the biggest posters on The Wilderness Clan and thought that you might be posting to back up your friend. An understandable assumption. You say that this is not the case though so that is fine. The insinuation that Martyn is paranoid is probably not helpful

andyn said:
My point was that there is an attitude issue on BCUK and some of it is coming from the moderating team, which as i was saying...will wash off onto its members.
The "attitude" of the postings on BCUK will be effected by the moderators but is going to largely be down to the members. It is under-moderating that is likely to cause problems on the forum. Bad language, abuse etc, however, the complains seems to be about heavy handed moderation.

andyn said:
I don't think they nessecarilly is AN ANSWER except that time and paitence needs to be given to posts and that this view that everyone is posting because of some alternate agenda is not a positive attitude to take when responding to posts, it is not only povoking but it is also one that will make people wonder why they are here.
Surely if "time and paitence needs to be given to posts" it needs to be the posted that takes this time to make sure the post will be relevant, helpful and considered. I do not want moderators sitting round contemplating their navels while an offencive post or thread remains on the board.

I said it on the other thread and will say it again. It is up to us the members to set the tone of the forum with our postings. Moderators are included in that but it is not just them. If we post sensibly there will be no need for the moderators to moderate anyway.

This does not imply any sort of ownership of the forum. We cannot impose rules on BCUK but similarly it cannot force us to post anything we are not happy with.
 

andyn

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Aug 15, 2005
2,392
29
Hampshire
www.naturescraft.co.uk
Bogflogger, I'm not deliberately misinterpreting anything, and as I edited my post a while back - I appologise if I have misunderstood what you said.

I also appreciate that it is Tony's website and HIS decision etc....but this is a feedback section...So I am expressing my priviledge to deliver my feedback to the owner and admin of this forum.

If, as a member of its community, you don't agree with my feedback then I totally respect that, and will listen to what anyone has to say and take that on board. If you feel this discussion is, and pardon my ignorance but im not sure what "compeditive polyuria" is, then you don't have to read it.

Hopefully though, those that count though will be able to take on board my comments and feedback and if they CHOOSE make changes that THEY feel appropriate.

Im not demanding action, as I don't have the right to do that, as clearly explained by Martyn...

But I care about BCUK and I do think that some areas of it could be improved on. If you don't...then feel free to post your own feedback stating how you feel.
 

andyn

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Aug 15, 2005
2,392
29
Hampshire
www.naturescraft.co.uk
John,

Thanks for your reply, that makes perfect sense to me and I appreciate what your saying.

As it happens, I have already expressed my confusion and displeasure to Adi as to the way he handled himself in the last thread. However yes I believe we both shared the same opinion on the things I have said. However I am posting this as myself and not that of a group and am glad you can appreciate that.

I didn't mean to imply that Martyn is paranoid about where I am coming from, but that it seems to me he is making conclusion about me as a person and my intentions, rather than what I am saying.

Hopefully this thread and the responses like your about
It is up to us the members to set the tone of the forum with our postings. Moderators are included in that but it is not just them
will be taken onboard by everybody and that BCUK can continue being the place that I enjoy so much to come to.
 

Marts

Native
May 5, 2005
1,435
32
London
andyn said:
and pardon my ignorance but im not sure what "compeditive polyuria" is
Nor did I. But now I do...

Competitive - we all know already

Polyuria - Polyuria is the release of abnormally large amounts (for an adult, at least 2.5 liters per day) of urine

I quite like that.. :) ;)
 

scanker

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Aug 15, 2005
2,326
24
48
Cardiff, South Wales
I think this thread illustrates quite plainly what's going wrong on here. One person posts something, it gets mis-interpreted and suddenly everyone's on the offensive.
Calm down, it's only the interweb! :rolleyes:
 
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