what most folk do non realise and or forget
we humans are on an in their territory as they have more rights than we do
UK bushcrafters with firearms...
- Thread starter Plainsman
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we humans are on an in their territory as they have more rights than we do
I don't overly agree with this.
We have a moral responsibility and duty to this earth and all that inhabit it, we are of course overpopulated too, but where is "our territory"?
Although rare in most ecosystems, humans are omnivores, our teeth designs give us away. Top is usually some sort of a carnivorous predator. Here, bears operate as omnivores to avoid competition with the big cats.
Most populations of most species have a fraction that can be "given away" without affecting the strength of the breeding reproductive core of that group. I hope that the animals that I harvest are members of that expendable group.
For many decades now, ecological research shows numbers to conclude that predators rarely take more that 10% of the prey. You see that because the prey populations are not extinct.
I've been a bird hunter for more than 60 years. Some migratory birds like ducks and geese, a Merriam's wild turkey to add to my list. But for weeks on end in the autumn, it's grouse. Our Ruffed Grouse is a little bit bigger that your Reds that I've seen in N Yorks. Of all the "Ruffies", Franklin's, Dusky's, Willow and Rock Ptarmigan that I have seen and/or taken a shot at, I can honestly say that I bag 10% of the birds. Some days, I make it look easy, I can do no wrong. Others, well, I should have stayed home.
Most populations of most species have a fraction that can be "given away" without affecting the strength of the breeding reproductive core of that group. I hope that the animals that I harvest are members of that expendable group.
For many decades now, ecological research shows numbers to conclude that predators rarely take more that 10% of the prey. You see that because the prey populations are not extinct.
I've been a bird hunter for more than 60 years. Some migratory birds like ducks and geese, a Merriam's wild turkey to add to my list. But for weeks on end in the autumn, it's grouse. Our Ruffed Grouse is a little bit bigger that your Reds that I've seen in N Yorks. Of all the "Ruffies", Franklin's, Dusky's, Willow and Rock Ptarmigan that I have seen and/or taken a shot at, I can honestly say that I bag 10% of the birds. Some days, I make it look easy, I can do no wrong. Others, well, I should have stayed home.
I sold all my guns a decade ago except my gg’s c1913 BSA air rifle . In all honesty I don’t miss them or their purpose's
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My Dad passed away Feb last year, I loved shooting with him at his club/range, but like a dimwit I never did get a a Fire arm or shotgun ticket... A good friend who is a dealer took the guns when he passed (at Dad's request to save mum having to sort it all out). I looked at all sorts of avenues to keep them, but sadly I eventually parted with all that I couldn't legally own. Aside from some shotguns which are in storage with dealer friend whilst I hope to sort out a shot gun cert.
Dad had some beauties which I'd have loved to keep hold of, but when I really looked into the whole thing, it slowly crept up on me that I loved the shooting AND the day out... without the day out, the shooting was just shooting... the challenge was there that I enjoyed but it was the entirety... I was sad to have got rid of them, but in a way a bit relieved to not have to attend some nearby cardigan club and nor did I want to attend Dad's club as I still have a feeling of it being his domain with his friends...(weird one).
Great sport, but you need land...
Dad had some beauties which I'd have loved to keep hold of, but when I really looked into the whole thing, it slowly crept up on me that I loved the shooting AND the day out... without the day out, the shooting was just shooting... the challenge was there that I enjoyed but it was the entirety... I was sad to have got rid of them, but in a way a bit relieved to not have to attend some nearby cardigan club and nor did I want to attend Dad's club as I still have a feeling of it being his domain with his friends...(weird one).
Great sport, but you need land...
true we do have ye moral responsibility
we are non over populated by any stretch of ye imagination
it is an illusion of being in built-up areas
if we were spread out as we would be in nature then there be plenty of room for all of us
by being in built up areas known as concrete-jungles it has taken over and destroyed the habitat for may a life form
Mmm.. not sure I agree. The average population density in England is around 430people/sq km. If everyone was spread out that would mean 1 person in every 50m square; that's positively crowded for me.
By comparison, the average population density of Powys (where I live) is only 25/sq km - much more comfortable
When we were 'part of nature', before farming, the population of Britain was estimated at only a few thousand people (in the Mesolithic); by the end of the Neolithic (when farming was introduced) it was 250,000 (so already 1.5 people/sq km).
70+ million people on this little island is overcrowded
By comparison, the average population density of Powys (where I live) is only 25/sq km - much more comfortable
When we were 'part of nature', before farming, the population of Britain was estimated at only a few thousand people (in the Mesolithic); by the end of the Neolithic (when farming was introduced) it was 250,000 (so already 1.5 people/sq km).
70+ million people on this little island is overcrowded
I’ve been shooting since I was a child. Though these days I’ve moved on from the air rifles of my youth. I mainly shoot target, with a variety of rifles from .22LR and .223 right up to .300 Win Mag and good old .45-70. It’s still a pretty popular hobby over here, despite our draconian laws.
I also didn’t know pictures of inanimate objects could cause such offence. Truly sad that people are so fragile these days. A firearm is a tool, just as a knife or an axe is. Will those be up for censorship too? Not a dig at the mods, but having to worry because some nosey cu… ermm… individual might be looking over your shoulder is just sad.
I also didn’t know pictures of inanimate objects could cause such offence. Truly sad that people are so fragile these days. A firearm is a tool, just as a knife or an axe is. Will those be up for censorship too? Not a dig at the mods, but having to worry because some nosey cu… ermm… individual might be looking over your shoulder is just sad.
Just to season the conversation: It is interesting to see that the Trudeau administration here is bringing in law to prevent importing, buying, selling or transferring handguns. Two weeks time.
I expect there will be words. There's been a few already, but mostly in support by the sound of it.
I lived in Chicago for six years. Last year there were 3500 shooting incidents in just Chicago itself (population of Chicago is 2.7 milion). 800 of those incidents resulted in homicides - not suicides or deaths by misadventure or other accident, of which there were also plenty, but 800 homicides.
There were 35 gun homicides in the UK in 2021. The UK has a population of 67 million.
The desire for armed teachers in US schools stems partly from the emerging historical circumstances portrayed by such numbers, but also from the National Rifle Association's nutbar social and political advocacy. I don't think it is a very good idea.
I expect there will be words. There's been a few already, but mostly in support by the sound of it.
I lived in Chicago for six years. Last year there were 3500 shooting incidents in just Chicago itself (population of Chicago is 2.7 milion). 800 of those incidents resulted in homicides - not suicides or deaths by misadventure or other accident, of which there were also plenty, but 800 homicides.
There were 35 gun homicides in the UK in 2021. The UK has a population of 67 million.
The desire for armed teachers in US schools stems partly from the emerging historical circumstances portrayed by such numbers, but also from the National Rifle Association's nutbar social and political advocacy. I don't think it is a very good idea.
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Doesn't Chicago have some of the strictest Gun laws in the states?
Isn’t Trudeau a tyrant who froze the bank accounts of those who protested against his massively over the top Covid mandates? I would not trust him or his Government as far as I could throw him. They’re not disarming you for your safety.
Back to the OP question... And possibly a couple of other topics that were raised.
In the UK there are various types of target shooting.
Short and long range precision.
Rapid fire static or with the shooter on the move. With rifle, long pistol and even shotguns. When moving it tends to be called 'practical'.
The above, on specific targets. We do a stick cutting comp. Where first to make the bit of 1x1" timber fall over, wins.
Historic (basically the above, but with guns of a particular type/age).
And add in anything else you can think of.
Our club even has a mini cannon section. Shooting what look like mantlepiece ornaments.
On live quarry there will be:
Pest control. On pigeons, corvids, squirrels, rats, fox etc.
Deer stalking.
Managed shoots (gamebirds bred for the shoot)
Wildfowling over wetlands.
My attitude to the above...
Target shooting is just for fun and as harmless as any other passtime.
And the guns are just a tool. When you have been around then for as long as I have, they are just things. So I do have a problem understanding why other people treat them as anything special.
Live shooting is much more subjective.
Pest control is neccesary. As the evolutionary winners, when animals come into conflict with human interests. Then animals tend to lose out. You would be surprised how much crop loss it costs a farmer to feed each pigeon. Ans we don't want rats near our food production or eating livestock feed. If rabbits and pigeons go in the pot, that is a bonus.
Deer numbers are high here, and the available terratory and food is limited. They also a big animal that eats a lot. So we really need to keep their numbers in check. Also you get a lot of meat off a deer. Which is less farmed meat and the animal lived it's wild lift till we gave it a quick end. (Which is a far better end than it will get if left to nature!)
The organised shoots, where the birds are bred for the sport. Not something I have ever done or interested in. But each bird has lived like a king. And if it goes into the food chain, then it still offsets a battery farmed chicken from the supermarket. So I'm still happy with that.
Wildfowlers only really take small numbers. As long as it is sustainable and the birds all end up being eaten. It's all still fine for me.
In the UK there are various types of target shooting.
Short and long range precision.
Rapid fire static or with the shooter on the move. With rifle, long pistol and even shotguns. When moving it tends to be called 'practical'.
The above, on specific targets. We do a stick cutting comp. Where first to make the bit of 1x1" timber fall over, wins.
Historic (basically the above, but with guns of a particular type/age).
And add in anything else you can think of.
Our club even has a mini cannon section. Shooting what look like mantlepiece ornaments.
On live quarry there will be:
Pest control. On pigeons, corvids, squirrels, rats, fox etc.
Deer stalking.
Managed shoots (gamebirds bred for the shoot)
Wildfowling over wetlands.
My attitude to the above...
Target shooting is just for fun and as harmless as any other passtime.
And the guns are just a tool. When you have been around then for as long as I have, they are just things. So I do have a problem understanding why other people treat them as anything special.
Live shooting is much more subjective.
Pest control is neccesary. As the evolutionary winners, when animals come into conflict with human interests. Then animals tend to lose out. You would be surprised how much crop loss it costs a farmer to feed each pigeon. Ans we don't want rats near our food production or eating livestock feed. If rabbits and pigeons go in the pot, that is a bonus.
Deer numbers are high here, and the available terratory and food is limited. They also a big animal that eats a lot. So we really need to keep their numbers in check. Also you get a lot of meat off a deer. Which is less farmed meat and the animal lived it's wild lift till we gave it a quick end. (Which is a far better end than it will get if left to nature!)
The organised shoots, where the birds are bred for the sport. Not something I have ever done or interested in. But each bird has lived like a king. And if it goes into the food chain, then it still offsets a battery farmed chicken from the supermarket. So I'm still happy with that.
Wildfowlers only really take small numbers. As long as it is sustainable and the birds all end up being eaten. It's all still fine for me.
Memories. I was a member of a shooting club for 30+ years before I moved away from the city. We had a 25 meter indoor range for 8 shooters in a squad. .22cal LR pistols or low vel. .38 and .45 only.
Somebody would buy a bottle of rum or whiskey, tie it on a string 1" off the floor and we paid to shoot, one at a time.
I actually won it one time! Cut the string. Thump!
Somebody would buy a bottle of rum or whiskey, tie it on a string 1" off the floor and we paid to shoot, one at a time.
I actually won it one time! Cut the string. Thump!
Dads Pedersoli Sharps .45-70 was one I would have kept in a heart beat, incredible to shoot, fantastically accurate, generally great fun. That and a Sako .22 bolt action... oh hah, and one that he/we named "the dishwasher gun"... it was a .44 Ruger old army, but a modern stainless steel weapon, so after a days shooting, dad would give it a quick wipe down, strip it, then shove it in the dishwasher
Unfortunately despite being black powder, because it was modern it could only be held on a certificate.Fortunately I've kept the antiques and various other bits and bobs.
With regards to my previous comment, I have the memories, those are the important bits!
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Doing my best to make this as forum acceptable and non insulting as possible, but frankly it's about time the world stopped looking at the US and the US stopped looking at the world with regards to gun laws etc...
It's an entirely different world and a problem that no other country in history has faced...
The US using external countries policies will no doubt fail, and having an opinion on the rest of the world is unfounded and vice versa... I can't be bothered to dredge up the figures again, but the US has something like 1 "mass shooting" (more than 3 people I think) either once a week or every other day.. over 1 gun per person etc.. no other country has this sort of situation...
As I've alluded to above, my experience with fire arms growing up, exposure to armed police etc has never made me think of them in any particular fear, but almost because of this thread, I've been a bit more aware to others perceptions... I can only imagine this is the same in the US, the exposure is high, the attitudes are relaxed (amongst some) and the laws surrounding firearms are directly linked to the mindset of many, which is a big distrust in authority...
@knowledge=gain
The UK and the world is overpopulated... our numbers do not cover the globes land, but the impact we have on the environment is definitely linked to our large numbers of population.. less people = less demand for "stuff".
It's an entirely different world and a problem that no other country in history has faced...
The US using external countries policies will no doubt fail, and having an opinion on the rest of the world is unfounded and vice versa... I can't be bothered to dredge up the figures again, but the US has something like 1 "mass shooting" (more than 3 people I think) either once a week or every other day.. over 1 gun per person etc.. no other country has this sort of situation...
As I've alluded to above, my experience with fire arms growing up, exposure to armed police etc has never made me think of them in any particular fear, but almost because of this thread, I've been a bit more aware to others perceptions... I can only imagine this is the same in the US, the exposure is high, the attitudes are relaxed (amongst some) and the laws surrounding firearms are directly linked to the mindset of many, which is a big distrust in authority...
@knowledge=gain
The UK and the world is overpopulated... our numbers do not cover the globes land, but the impact we have on the environment is definitely linked to our large numbers of population.. less people = less demand for "stuff".
that comes across as though us humans should be culled for population reduction like they do for wild animals
how would you feel if the elite said to cull the population of human-beings and then they came after your family and friends...??
oh!!! wait there is already a depopulation-plan in place as per the Georgia guide-stones the Rothschilds lockstep 2010 and much more
if one [1] were to look on any world map and zoom in to the non concrete-jungles and the like one [1] will see clear crystal-clear there be more than enough land for every-one
also look into the native natural folk in very remote areas whereby they have very small populations as they do not over breed or use such manipulation as artificial-insemination and the like
now lets look at land that has been taken over by industry and abandoned land and buildings alike that are not in use that could be turned back into useful land for all
not to mention the churches with graveyards that are advertised with planning permissions to turn into homes and to remove the graveyards for parking and-such
i do have solutions in mind for those that want to listen and at the same token take head, i am not saying these solutions are the b-all and end-all or they are the perfect solutions yet they are the most viable i know of thus far
Last off topic comment on the matter from me:
@knowledge=gain
You're arguing land space against human numbers... I've already stated this isn't in question. What I have said is that the more humans there are, the more **** we need... More cars, more plastics, more food, mass production, mass farming, more clothes, more labour, more houses, more construction, more concrete, more trucks, more waste, more ships, more planes more more more...
I don't buy into the "elite" BS... but each to their own. The world is full of leaders who couldn't organise a pish up in a brewery and full of people who couldn't keep a secret if they had their tongues surgically removed...
As for advocating a cull, of course not... I could certainly volunteer a bunch of people if required....
@knowledge=gain
You're arguing land space against human numbers... I've already stated this isn't in question. What I have said is that the more humans there are, the more **** we need... More cars, more plastics, more food, mass production, mass farming, more clothes, more labour, more houses, more construction, more concrete, more trucks, more waste, more ships, more planes more more more...
I don't buy into the "elite" BS... but each to their own. The world is full of leaders who couldn't organise a pish up in a brewery and full of people who couldn't keep a secret if they had their tongues surgically removed...
As for advocating a cull, of course not... I could certainly volunteer a bunch of people if required....
you argued ye same fact when you clearly stated and it be witnessed by those that have read this thread and will be witnessed by those that read ye thread in-futuro
you further went on to mention ye environment-impact and-such
take note of the waste produced by industry, i.e. all ye food that goes to waste as it does non fit ye certain size or shape etcetera whereby all that food would end all poverty and those staving across ye globe and less need to murder innocent animals by shooting or other means
then we could go further about ye waste and pollution on ye industrious scale, yet that would be for a different thread for those who want open dialogue on such res-specific
i see you contradict yourself and read that you would advocate ye murder of humans when you say
