Traditionalism vs Modernism

[Brian Curnel]

When I first came into the wilderness world it was in the form of survival. I could not get enough information nor be out in the bush enough. Over the years though I found that as my skills became more advanced and proficient in using them, the more I steered away from the modern way of doing things. I was actually moving backward into the ancestral past. Instead of using matches i was putting the fire& bow to work. Fishing took on a whole new challenge, no dental floss or fishing line rather it was weirs, cordage line and bone hooks. Do we as bushcrafters seek that type of freedom? The walk away from modern necessity? Or for the most part is it just a trend, to take on new chellenges and increase skills in conjuction to other modern skills? I now consider myself about 85% primitive, aside from regular clothing, and use of a knife usually I try my best to do everything the way my ancestors did, to me it give life a wholesome meaning, and dawns a new appreciation for modern amenities that we take for granted. However, if the choice were presented to me either or... Traditionalism would be the way to go.

 

[Celt_Ginger]

Unfortunately, my own skills are not that far advanced that I can forgoe a lot of the more modern tools. I'm still dependant on some of them. As my skill develops though, I would like to learn the traditional ways. Now, once I have learned, I'm not sure that I would still give up some of the modern tools. I suppose it would be a fusion of traditional skills, but using some more modern tools to make life just that little easier.

 

[Les Marshall]

Brian, what a wonderfuly thought provoking topic. I have to say that I came into bushcraft because of my fascination with how my ancestors lived. I am amazed at those of us who say that we can survive as our ancestors did, yet when we go into the bush, we cannot go without our hammocks, sleeping bags and gortex clothing. I am with you when you say that you have found you have regressed to the way your ancestors lived, I cannot but help thinking that they were better off than us with all our modern kit and ideas.

 

[Swampy Matt]

Everytime I go out I try to use a more traditional 'something', whether it's a more traditional clothing material or a more traditional way of performing a specific task.

I've finally banished all gore-tex from my kit, and with the exception of my Army Poncho, all of my clothing is natural fibre (generally linen, wool or leather with a few bits of cotton). I still carry a synthetic Bivvy bag, but rarely use it as I prefer to sleep in a canvas 'swag' type bedroll, and I use wool blankets instead of a modern sleeping bag in all but the coldest of weather. I'm considering replacing my foam roll mat with a reindeer skin so that my bedroll is completely natural as well.

I don't think I'd give up my modern, steel, Axe or Knife, my synthetic tarp or my firesteel completely, but I'll start carrying a firebow kit and using that more this year.

Brian, 85% primitive is awesome. This is the stage i'd like to get to, but I guess if I were to try and put a historical context to my current level of skill/equipment, it would be somewhere between the 1700-1800's. In our colonies at this time bushmen/mountain men seem to have used a combination of cutting edge technology (for the time) together with 'primitive' skills learned from the indigeonous peoples. I hope the next few years will see me get more 'abo'

Matt.

 

[Longstrider]

I take my hat off to you Brian, despite not even wanting to go where you have gone. My skills are nowhere near extensive enough to even contemplate doing without "modern" kit and aids, and I'm not sure that I would ever want to be without at least some of them. Like Celt Ginger, I would not want to give up my steel tools. I am keen to learn the alternative ways, and would enjoy using them for their own sake and for the sake of knowing that if I ever found myself without my modern gear in a **** situation I could use those skills to take care of myself. I have just booked a days workshop with John Lord to learn what I might about flint knapping for this very purpose, andI plan on making myself a few more "traditional" tools and bits of gear inthe coming year as well as learning new skills.

 

[Ketchup]

I am with you when you say that you have found you have regressed to the way your ancestors lived, I cannot but help thinking that they were better off than us with all our modern kit and ideas.

Then why did they embrace modernity? Don't forget they shed off famine, disease and low life exceptancy by the techniques of our so called modern world.

I'm not too sure. Being able to live the 'bushcraft way' is a form of luxury only the happy few can enjoy. Who has access to large tracts of open land where you can freely cut wood, kill animals and claim free passage? Few in this real world!.
Who have enough secured capital and free time to learn the skills to live this way?

I think of bushcrafting as a philosphical approach. By learning "how it was done before electricity" we learn:
1: to put our modern achievements in perspective
2: that a skilled man can get a long way with very little resources
3: that pyramids were built by people, not whitchcraft

such wisdom is a great intellectual achievement, but it cannot be turned into a economic system for a real world society. Those who tried carriy the name of Red Khmer or Taliban.

 

[TallMikeM]

traditional was once cutting edge technology. There was a reason why man used flint shards, then learnt to nap it, then gave it up for bronze, then iron and so forth.

 

[capacious]

With all this talk of tradition versus modernity, I have to ask the question: why not embrace both?

Utilise the best from both worlds - the razor sharp steel knife and the forged axe are incomparably better tools than flint, and (in a utility sense) that is undeniable. We use modern sleeping bags because they are lighter and more efficient than carrying 20 woolen blankets when the temperature drops.

But there are also natural materials which function far better than any of our modern materials. Take the humble Ranger Shirt for instance. Not only is it pretty damned water proof in all but the foulest storms, it actually PRODUCES up to 3 degrees of temperature ALL BY ITSELF. This is totally natural, and not the result of anything Swanndri has done to the wool. Does Goretex do this? Not that I have ever found. Double layer Ventile is as waterproof as it needs to be and is far more breathable than any synthetic waterproof. Natural shelters shut out wind and rain (when built properly) better than any tent can.

There are traditional skills which have become obsolete for good reason - there are modern alternatives which work better. I can produce fire with a bow drill is less than 3 minutes. But I can produce fire with a match in less than 3 seconds. (And for all those people who say 'But if you found oneself in a survival situiation without matches, what would you do?' I say, 'When the hell are you really ever going to be in that situiation?') There are tradtional skills which are far better than some modern skills, and modern skills and tools that are far better than traditional and primitive ways.

I think when people ask the question 'Is primitive better than modern?', or make the statement that 'traditional is better than modern' they are missing the point. Using tradtional skills and materials is far more SATISFYING than using modern skills. The prime example being, of course, lighting a fire by rubbing sticks together. The feeling of freedom that utilising these skills provides is like a pressure release valve for the prssure-cooker lives nearly all of us lead today. You get a greater sense of acheivement in knapping a flint axe than you would buying a Gransfors, but probably only because there aren't many people who could do it. No traditional skill is easier than any modern skill - the whole point of modernity is 'moving forward at a greter pace.' In other words, with greater ease.

I say EMBRACE TRADITION, knowledge is free and weighs nothing, but don't try to kid yourself that it is easier using a flint axe than a Gransfors.

Jake.

 

[mark a.]

Jake is right. For most of us, bushcraft is a hobby - we do it to enjoy ourselves. So some people will prefer the modern tools (whether it's because they're gear-freaks or because they're not bothered about tools and just want to be doing things efficiently), others will prefer traditional (because it's fascinating and exciting).

The two can feed off each other - modern tools and techniques can be improved by using skills acquired over thousands of years, and presumably modern knowhow can help us know which materials will be best for your traditional firemaking kit.

So there doesn't need to be a choice between the one and the other - unless you yourself want to do so for your own enjoyment.

 

[Brian Curnel]

Well let me reply here... I am not making effort to convert someone into traditionalsim for modern tools or gagetry. My point is that when a newcomer to the "Survival/ Bushcraft World" Many do so with modern tools and the ability to survive is greatly reduced if the reliance on those tools are'nt utilized. So, my agruement would be that as a person who practices traditionalism, the absolute need or reliance on say a match or lighter is not so very much important. I embrace my hammock aside from sleeping on the ground, but that dos'nt mean that I could'nt it just means I made a choice to, and if needed I could. Point two: Jake and Mark spoke of why things progessed, sure there were faster but not necessarily better tools. An obsidian shard is 500 times sharper than surgical steel and never needs resharpening so is that better? Or is the steel just harder to break making it more durable to rough-handling? So it really boils down to preference to me: Modernism vs. Traditionalsim

 

[Swampy Matt]

For me bushcraft is the CRAFT of using what is available to you in the BUSH. Therefore my learning is focused on utilising what I find in nature, rather than what I take in with me. I carry a steel knife and axe, because I'm not stupid -I'd rather have a tool and not need it, than need it and not have it. However i'd rather use a flint or quartz shard if I can find one. So I learnt what geology to look for to find these knappable rocks.

To me, excessive reliance on modern materials has little place in what I consider bushcraft - its just wild camping with a little plant knowledge and animal watching thrown in. I guess this is a result seeing too many 'Bushcrafters' or 'outdoorsmen' with £300 gore-tex jackets and £1000 worth of shiney gadgets panic the first time a storm breaks or their navigation goes off course.

The further I go down the 'Traditionalism' route the more I find I don't need to use modern kit. Its not a choice, for the most part the trad kit does the job far better (like Brian said, Obsidian blades are far sharper than a steel blade). Part of the reason I left a job in the outdoors retail industry was because I honestly couldn't bring myself to advise people on high tech modern kit when I knew that there was a better traditional option.

Unfortunately I think there are too many 'bushcrafters' who perform their hobby from the armchair or the computer desk. Thats why I tip my hat to those prepared to go almost totally primitive. I'll be joining them in 'Abo' bushcraft as soon as I aquire a few more skills. I hope a lot of people on here will be heading that way too.

 

[Tengu]

I think if you look at most (if not all) real primitives you find they use what they can get their hands upon.

therefore if a flint knapper is out looking for materials, and he finds a discarded glass bottle, what does he do? he turns it into arrowheads. if he wants a knife he makes one out of a barrel hoop, if he wants an axe he trades furs for it.

its all appropriate technology.

I am always on the lookout for something I can use...if not use, sell or trade for something I do want.

Its amazing the stuff you can get hold of if you keep your eyes open.

 

[pignuts]

I'd like to add my bit to this interesting debate...as a beginner i made a definite choice in my life to journey back and connect with my ancestors in order to move forwards to reintegrate with nature and begin to understand how my life is disconnected from the land. I feel strongly that civilisation is making us and the earth sick. Our alienation from the land has led to a bizarre situation in which we do not know where our water comes from or where our sewage goes to..how our food is grown, and what it does to us.even what our food looks like in it's raw state wether animal or vegetable..we don't build the houses we live in...or teach our own children, grow our own food, provide our own heat.. .i think there's a story in the jean Leidhoof book 'the continuum concept' in which she lived and studied a tribe of venezuelen indians for two years. Jean had a glass she was drinking out of and a few of the men asked her to come back to them the next day and explain how it was made. She did meet up with them and explained the THEORY behind glass making. The indians asked her to show them. Of course she explained she could not. The indians laughed jokingly saying they would not listen to her if she could not explain how the glass was made. This i think is where modernism succeeds in making a life out of balance. I think the most important concept for bushcraft is consciousness and reconnection, and this is a journey away from modernsim and our ability to dominate our environment and back to a more natural state of being. I think the bigger picture here is important and how what we do affects the larger ecosystems in which we live. It isn't for me just about leaning new skills and having a hobby, it's a much needed medicine for a lost people....

 

[BorderReiver]

Brian, what a wonderfuly thought provoking topic. I have to say that I came into bushcraft because of my fascination with how my ancestors lived. I am amazed at those of us who say that we can survive as our ancestors did, yet when we go into the bush, we cannot go without our hammocks, sleeping bags and gortex clothing. I am with you when you say that you have found you have regressed to the way your ancestors lived, I cannot but help thinking that they were better off than us with all our modern kit and ideas.

They were born to it.The family taught the skills required from childhood along with the knowledge of the environment.

Don't forget that we are just playing,they were using the skills just to survive.

 

[pierre girard]

For about 20 years I've been a member of a group which allows the use of only those items which would have been in common use in our area in the mid 1700s. Makes for interesting camping at times.

Grows on you though. Even when I am camping with the family, or camping alone, I kind of enjoy the challange.

PG

 

[-Switch-]

They were born to it.The family taught the skills required from childhood along with the knowledge of the environment.

Don't forget that we are just playing,they were using the skills just to survive.

A good point.
They were constantly witnessing and applying what we now call bushcraft skills from the moment they were born. It would be wrong to think we could ever live like that because we haven't had the generations of constant experience to teach us. Some of us may think we could live in that way but imagine, for example, if we had to give birth to or raise a child in a survival situation. It's one thing being able to live and survive on your own but when other people are entirely dependant on you it becomes a totally different matter. We learn bushcraft as a hobby or interest and the application of those skills accounts for an extremely small percentage of our lives, whereas for them it was their lives. It's inevitable then that most of us will fall back on more modern techniques and equipment to make up for our lack of experience.

It's also interesting that we are so keen to learn 'traditional' skills to aid our bushcraft and survival but surely mankinds oldest and most important survival skill is his ability to learn, evolve and adapt? And that's exactly what our ancestors did - and have been doing for thousands of years - to bring us to the point we're at now, with modern skills and equipment.

Having said that, I still prefer to learn and apply 'traditional' methods when I'm out in the back woods. Does that make me a hipocrite? Or just confused?

 

[Toddy]

I grew up in a busy, active, creative family in West central Scotland which, unusually for the times, had retained much of the knowledge and skills of their country dwelling ancestors. Remember Scotland was the first Industrialised nation and is now, arguably, the first Post Industrialised nation, and the change in our society and it's values reflects the changes in our world.

We now have, enshrined in law, the right to roam, we are trying to live within the modern world with all of it's conveniences and comforts and find ways to address the pollution, the exploitation of natural resources, and the destruction of the natural world and the flora and fauna that exist within it.

The surge of interest in 'bushcraft' can be seen as part of the process to re-connect ourselves with the natural world and develop the skills that would allow us to exist comfortably within it. There's a different pace to life outdoors, mankind is both creative and adaptable...for a little naked ape we manage to exist and breed in virtually every environment on Earth......and we do so by altering the world around us, whether it's by making clothing or shelter suitable for extreme environments like the Arctic or digging wells in the desert, we find ways.

The use of natural materials is a classic example of blinkered vision though, my linen shirts and woollen jumpers are really products of intensive factory farming....now if I'd grown the flax, proceesed it into linen and then woven it myself it might be different, but, sorry, yes I can do it, but life is just too short

And there's the rub, I want the natural but to get it I have to give up so much of my modern life that is healthy and interesting and vibrantly alive.

So I compromise, I'll make my own, I may use factory produced linen to do it but I'll sew and dye it myself. I'll aim for as few processed items as possible, whether it be food or clothing or kit. I will try to 'walk lightly' on the Earth, while freely admitting I don't miss having to light the fire *every* morning in life to provide heat, light, cooking, hot water, but I do like knowing I can do it if need be.
I'm an archaeologist though mostly I teach traditional handcrafts and do Living History for a living; knowing how things were made and used in the past is a vital part of my life but I live in the 21st century with all of it's benefits, and I think that sometimes we forget just how fortunate we are to do so.
Cheers,
Toddy

 

[swyn]

I echo your thoughts Toddy,particularly the 'walk lightly'. Swyn

 

[Swampy Matt]

They were born to it.The family taught the skills required from childhood along with the knowledge of the environment.

It would be wrong to think we could ever live like that because we haven't had the generations of constant experience to teach us. Some of us may think we could live in that way but imagine, for example, if we had to give birth to or raise a child in a survival situation

I Disagree.

The majority of what we now term bushcraft was taught to me by my Father and Grandfather, who'd learnt it off his father, who'd learnt it off his father and so on for as many generations as our known family history tells.

After the birth of my son last year, I went and found out how to deal with various senarios related to caring for a child in the wilderness so that I'd be prepared to deal with them if neccesary.

Don't forget that we are just playing.

I suppose some people just play harder than others - I certainly don't consider what I do as 'playing', neither did my Father when he was pulling half frozen ramblers off mountains in North Wales in the '70's or my grandfather when he was Scouting in North Africa in the '40's - They were using generations of knowledge simply to keep either themselves or other people alive.

 

[Brian Curnel]

Ok.. heres my point. Knowledge is power. In the stone age you did'nt have the nuturing family as we live in suburbia. The life was hard and skills at that time were basic at best. The evolution of innovation came about after several hundreds of years. Now I started primitive technology 20 yeras ago, and I think that i'd be able to live primitively because I empowered a lifestyle to be the instructor, not the people. You see primitive technology is just that a practice of being able to live with less..not more, your skills level allows you to carry less by knowing how to utilize your surroundings more.

Bri