thinking of going "offgrid"

[10074405]

I said a while back to my bestfriend and Girlfriend that I might buy some land. Now if I build a "portable home" *cough cough* from Timber I would be a lot happier as I could do what the hell I wanted with my land. Although not exactly anything but Close enough.

Now here's the thing, if I buy land there's something I'd like to know, if anyone knows the answer

Can I get some from of address allocated to a plot of land? There's a plot of land I've seen that £7k~ for around 5.5 acres (not sure if this is good?) and it has road access so I'd like to stick a post box up by the gate for mail and then by the logcabin thing I could have fruit and veg growing

Thanks

 

[British Red]

These things are all tied together - postal address, electoral roll. council tax, tv licensing. Notify one, you notify all - and they will be on you for building regs, planning permission etc. It will likely be the other landowners that see you and report you first though.

 

[Andy BB]

Get a PO box address?

 

[sandbender]

Do you or your girlfriend have relatives where your mail might be delivered?

"...It will likely be the other landowners that see you and report you first though..."

They will, if someone starts to live 'off the grid' next to their land it will have a knock on effect for them, you might contaminate their domestic or livestock water supply, you might start a forest or grass fire, you might have mates who turn up and rev car engines at three in the morning etc.

There are places both in the UK and on the continent where what you hope to do may be possible, however for the most part you would either be living in a community or someplace with a land owners permission (and blind eye). I know of one young couple from NZ who lived on an estate near one of my former residences in Scotland who lived in a dilapidated cottage with no services. They helped with the sheep and put some manual work into maintaining the cottage. Everybody was happy, the landowner emptied the septic tank and put a water line down from the tank on the hill.

They very quickly 'blended in' and made themselves useful to those around them, something to think about.

 

[markheolddu]

That is a very cheap price for 5.5 acres as farm land is atleast that much per acre in most places and usually more.

 

[Uilleachan]

Best bet is to buy a wood, then start a forestry or some sort of eco company, lease the wood to the company. The company applies for planning for a modest shed (based on your business plan you'll need the shed to keep your eco/forestry gear in, strimmer chainsaw etc, this is your company's business premisses with a postal address ). Then do a bit of cleaning up for a while, with zero overnight anything. Then run a bushcraft thing or two with your commercial front company, perhaps a limited over night meet that turns out to be a complete commercial failure. After a year or two, fold the company, you take back the wood, which now has a shed on it, a shed with planning permission and legitimate credentials.

Then, depending who your neighbours are, move in by increment. A good way is to start keeping pheasants or partridge, you don't need planning for pens, then get your shooting neighbours round for a shoot. Gradually your presence in the shed becomes less contentious, because everyone knows you, they know you're there over night now and then for pest control and after a while, your part of the furniture. You still have the council tax change of use bridge to cross, but keep enough of a low profile and in time these things sort themselves out.

Pre newage traveler off grid living was much simpler where I am, but then we had a chronic housing shortage and things were generally much more laid back. Stick up a post box inform the posty and hey presto you had a postal address, different now as Red points out.

Business is a different matter, mention you're starting a low impact rural business and you'll find an open door. More difficult in scotland due to right to roam legislation meaning that someone who uses your wood as a dog toilet could lodge objection to a shed, but in the south, provided there's no right of way conflict business will get a green light where fronting something as an individual will get you nowhere.

 

[Qwerty]

Best bet is to buy a wood, then start a forestry or some sort of eco company, lease the wood to the company. The company applies for planning for a modest shed (based on your business plan you'll need the shed to keep your eco/forestry gear in, strimmer chainsaw etc, this is your company's business premisses with a postal address ). Then do a bit of cleaning up for a while, with zero overnight anything. Then run a bushcraft thing or two with your commercial front company, perhaps a limited over night meet that turns out to be a complete commercial failure. After a year or two, fold the company, you take back the wood, which now has a shed on it, a shed with planning permission and legitimate credentials.

Then, depending who your neighbours are, move in by increment. A good way is to start keeping pheasants or partridge, you don't need planning for pens, then get your shooting neighbours round for a shoot. Gradually your presence in the shed becomes less contentious, because everyone knows you, they know you're there over night now and then for pest control and after a while, your part of the furniture. You still have the council tax change of use bridge to cross, but keep enough of a low profile and in time these things sort themselves out.

A very interesting proposition. Do you have zoning laws in the UK whereby if the land was zoned agricultural, it would mean that any permission granted for sheds etc. in line with agricultural work would prevent you converting them for residential use?

 

[boatman]

Useful leaflet from the Small Woodland Owner's Group http://www.woodlands.co.uk/owning-a-wood/sheds-leaflet.pdf

 

[10074405]

That is a very cheap price for 5.5 acres as farm land is atleast that much per acre in most places and usually more.

The land is this cheap here because its land that farmers cant use because its got a decent chunk of woodland and it would cost them more to get it chopped down and made into fields than what they would make back in the long run or the fields available are quite hilly and would be hard for the tractors and stuff to work on. I spoke to a guy recently who said his Scouts had bought 7Acres for £8k and I was astonished (A little bit away from Aber but not a problem) so I asked at a local land and estate agents and they gave me the leaflet for the 5.5acre plot!

Best bet is to buy a wood, then start a forestry or some sort of eco company, lease the wood to the company. The company applies for planning for a modest shed (based on your business plan you'll need the shed to keep your eco/forestry gear in, strimmer chainsaw etc, this is your company's business premisses with a postal address ). Then do a bit of cleaning up for a while, with zero overnight anything. Then run a bushcraft thing or two with your commercial front company, perhaps a limited over night meet that turns out to be a complete commercial failure. After a year or two, fold the company, you take back the wood, which now has a shed on it, a shed with planning permission and legitimate credentials.

Then, depending who your neighbours are, move in by increment. A good way is to start keeping pheasants or partridge, you don't need planning for pens, then get your shooting neighbours round for a shoot. Gradually your presence in the shed becomes less contentious, because everyone knows you, they know you're there over night now and then for pest control and after a while, your part of the furniture. You still have the council tax change of use bridge to cross, but keep enough of a low profile and in time these things sort themselves out.

Pre newage traveler off grid living was much simpler where I am, but then we had a chronic housing shortage and things were generally much more laid back. Stick up a post box inform the posty and hey presto you had a postal address, different now as Red points out.

Business is a different matter, mention you're starting a low impact rural business and you'll find an open door. More difficult in Scotland due to right to roam legislation meaning that someone who uses your wood as a dog toilet could lodge objection to a shed, but in the south, provided there's no right of way conflict business will get a green light where fronting something as an individual will get you nowhere.

Sounds like a plan old chap, sounds like a plan. I'll definitely look into it, I'm wondering If I could offer some sort of camp site like some of the farmers have done in fields close to Aber. Surely I could stick a Cabin up for the site manager?

And the idea of getting Pheasants and partridge for shooting is a great idea and would definitely encourage my neighbors to like us and just come round to understanding that I prefer to be there than in town. Hell If they wanted it I'd help around on the farm as long as it kept them happy and let me get on with things on my end I wouldn't be bothered. I'm not afraid of a little hard work

These things are all tied together - postal address, electoral roll. council tax, tv licensing. Notify one, you notify all - and they will be on you for building regs, planning permission etc. It will likely be the other landowners that see you and report you first though.

Someone mentioned planning to me but a "mobile home" *technically* a caravan but built on site shouldn't need it aslong as the structure can be split into two halves for moving should I need it (from what I've found online and in the Uni law library/and a random question I may or may not have asked in the Rural laws and regulations lecture I snook into)

I'd try to get a feel for the surrounding land owners before I paid any money for the land and if I managed to get a hold of the person who owned the surrounding fields I'd probably explain that I was going to put up a small cabin/shed for weekend use and that I wasn't going to be any trouble because I much prefer the quiet and the outdoors to the TV and loud music and hopefully get a decent rapport with them to the point that IF I have friends and family over for a summer BBQ or something that I would invite them.

 

[British Red]

I'd try to get a feel for the surrounding land owners before I paid any money for the land and if I managed to get a hold of the person who owned the surrounding fields I'd probably explain that I was going to put up a small cabin/shed for weekend use and that I wasn't going to be any trouble because I much prefer the quiet and the outdoors to the TV and loud music and hopefully get a decent rapport with them to the point that IF I have friends and family over for a summer BBQ or something that I would invite them.

You can explain that to them - but it does not get around the fact that to erect a structure on the fields needs planning permission - even for a shed. Its not in the curtilage of a dwelling so the exceptions for domestic outbuildings don't apply. There are some more generous rules for forestry - but you will need to show that the building is proportional and used for the forestry taking place. Likewise with caravans - if a caravan is to be used on the site for habitation, then you need a site licence and planning permission. You can camp for a limited number of nights in a tent though.

 

[presterjohn]

As has been suggested I would go for the slowly slowly catchy monkey approach. If you are desperate to kip on the land in the meantime you could always get some kind of caravenette and PO box and be very low impact during the "business" phase.

 

[boatman]

Scottish "Living Huts" are an interesting idea which is worth exploring. http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/Doc/156526/0042031.pdf

http://www.tlio.org.uk/1000huts-campaign

Then there is the idea of commuting a short distance to your agricultural holding so that one could buy, lease or rent a house as cheaply as possible with no land and purchase a field or a wood not too far away depending on what you wanted to do, even the land could be rented of course.

 

[Uilleachan]

A very interesting proposition. Do you have zoning laws in the UK whereby if the land was zoned agricultural, it would mean that any permission granted for sheds etc. in line with agricultural work would prevent you converting them for residential use?

Aye we've a similar system, but the rural business route can get you round most of it.

Sounds like a plan old chap, sounds like a plan. I'll definitely look into it, I'm wondering If I could offer some sort of camp site like some of the farmers have done in fields close to Aber. Surely I could stick a Cabin up for the site manager?

And the idea of getting Pheasants and partridge for shooting is a great idea and would definitely encourage my neighbors to like us and just come round to understanding that I prefer to be there than in town. Hell If they wanted it I'd help around on the farm as long as it kept them happy and let me get on with things on my end I wouldn't be bothered. I'm not afraid of a little hard work

Everything in it's time, start with a modest plan, clearing coppicing and planting, so a shed (with EU approved welfare facilities for the workers, eco composting privy/septic tank, even mains water if practical, somewhere to wash (eco shower powered by a solar collector) wouldn't even raise an eyebrow. Build a big enough shed you could even have a caravan inside, for tea breaks) just as long as it's on a business footing, nudge nudge wink wink.

Most businesses are out of business inside 5 years and provided you fold the business properly leaving no debt etc where's the harm? The cost of doing it, modest because of the need to have audited accounts (if you go limited) and basic insurance, is really just incidental in the greater scheme of things, you may even end up with a real, if modest, business out of it as well as an under the radar home that gradually emerges as a legit dwelling in time.

Anything that creates a job and or brings in money (the tourist pound) or both to rural areas, especially if green low carbon and sustainable, is a winner in the eyes of the local authority, even just a whiff of it should get you planning for a shed.

Keeping things presentable is the key.

 

[BlueTrain]

Things can be different here in the states and in some places remarkably the same as in the old country. But apparently there are lots of people with the same idea, although most of them have not taken the first step of actually acquiring land. You can forget about squatting in any place worth being, however. There are other points worth mentioning, though I don't know if there's much that would apply anywhere else and probably not in the other side of the U.S., either.

Land values vary a great deal according to precisely where it happens to be. So-called water front property is far more valuable but something along a main highway is relatively cheap. Zoning and all such governmental control around here is at the county level (not the same as an English county) for most purposes and in very rural places, it is very limited, although insurance considerations might be of some interest to a property owner, as would other ownership interests in the property (such as mineral rights).

No one will escape having neighbors, though they may not be that close. Hopefully they would be good neighbors. Sometimes property will abut so-called public land like national and state parks and forests, so you won't have homeowners on one side. Of course, everything depends on what you are looking for with your place in the country and books were being written on this very subject before WWII. You probably thought this was a new idea.

 

[feralpig]

You can get the post office to deliver your mail pretty much anywhere you like.
The land will be inside a post code, then a postal town, then a county. Call your place whatever you like, stick your name on the top and tell them who you are. (In theory......)

If you have kids, forget it, you'll have social services breathing down your neck before you can say child neglect.

Otherwise, there are ways.
The authoritys don't really care where you live, they won't be looking into it, until someone complains.
Then they will look into it. What they really want is council tax.

Don't build anythng, don't go digging big holes, don't give them any levers. Don't cause any pollution.
Live in a vehicle, that is running and road legal. If it is a big camper van, then all the better. Take it from the property often, this makes it very difficult for them to prove you are living there. They have not got the finances or the resources to do a 24 hour stakeout, to gather enough evidence to satisfy a Judge that you are living there.

Legally inform any interested authoritys that you have removed their implied right of access to the property. They now need a warrant to set foot on your property. For this they need the signature of a Judge,(or maybe a magistrate, not too sure) The chances of them getting it are pretty small. If you can afford it, force them to deal with you through a solicitor. This should prevent them doing anything illegal.

You may get away with it for years, you may get shopped straight away. If you play your cards right, they will give in, and give you a two year temporary mobile home permit, or something like that. From there, you should be able to get permanent mobile home permission. Then you will have to pay council tax.

If you get shopped, you are going to have to fight, and do it right, but you can win. They will give in, unless you slip up. You can string it out for years. Move off the land for a few weeks, if things start to get a bit hot, and when you go back, it's all back to square one again.

You could start a viable business, but even established farms struggle to get planning for a workers house, so I wouldn't bet to much on it.

Good luck, fight the bast*rds. It's a poor show when a man can't live quietly on a piece of land he has bought and paid for.

 

[boatman]

Legally inform any interested authoritys that you have removed their implied right of access to the property. They now need a warrant to set foot on your property. For this they need the signature of a Judge,(or maybe a magistrate, not too sure) The chances of them getting it are pretty small. If you can afford it, force them to deal with you through a solicitor. This should prevent them doing anything illegal.

Since when did that work?

 

[feralpig]

I doubt very much that it does work. But if they come out in court, and use something in evidence against you, that they obtained while trespassing, then it weakens their case.

 

[Andy BB]

Sorry for being cynical, but isn't all this "advice" the beginning of the end for green-belt and woodland? I'm sure you're being genuine, but there's lots who aren't?

 

[feralpig]

Sorry for being cynical, but isn't all this "advice" the beginning of the end for green-belt and woodland? I'm sure you're being genuine, but there's lots who aren't?

Quite right. And knowing how long it takes to move "non genuine" ones, that don't own the land, and being pretty familiar with the techniques they use to stay put, gives me a pretty good insight into how to be allowed to live in peace on your own land, without having commit to a life time of debt. As in a state sanctioned, EU approved Health and Safety risk assessed house.
Plus I know a few people who have done it.

 

[greensurfingbear]

Not sure if you caught it but that channel 4 show about great small spaces had a modular hive structure on this week. 10k per module and its technically a mobile home so doesn't require planning permission. Can have as few or as many modules as you need just put them together in the way you want.


Orric