The End of Internet Knife Sales. Law change could target one-hand opening folders

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santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,871
1,085
65
Florida
Thanks chaps. That did indeed answer my question. Sorry if I started us off topic :p

Guzzi Goose, great cross reference! Thank you for that!!

Janne,
There is more at play than whether a potential victim might be carrying a weapon. This is an argument that has been rolled out in the UK by shooters, maybe because it is used so often in the US. While there appears to be a correlation between falls in certain types of crime and whether a US area (state, county, city or town) has rules allowing citizens to be armed, or require mandatory gun ownership, like Kennesaw GA, I don't think it should be taken as a universal truth, and certainly not for the UK. The argument presupposes two things; first that the armed citizens won't create more problems for the community than the crime they were trying to prevent, and second, that the people have a temperament and mindset that they will indeed step up to protect family, home and community. I do not think that either of those generally apply in the parts of the UK that I have lived in. Most people here don't want to be armed so that they themselves can fight crime, and they don't want to live in a community where all their neighbours might be armed.....

I think it's realistic to assume most of us would simply prefer not to have any threat that causes us need to defend ourselves. That said, I don't believe there is any realistic possibility that zero threat will ever be achieved. I also believe the best way to lessen such threats is through reducing reasons for assaults (better social education in a child's developing years) rather than focusing on inanimate objects. Your statement the "Most people here don't want to be armed....." (emphasis mine) says a lot about the reason y'all have a lower violent crime rate: you simply aren't an agressive people by nature/culture.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,871
1,085
65
Florida
....I have been recently wondering what the crime rates would be like if the government hadn't been taking all these incremental steps legislating against knife carry, and had not made so much effort to have them portrayed as weapons in the press.....

Unfortunately that's exactly what raises hackles here: the "incremental" nature of controls. The very nature presupposes an eventual total ban at worst or government control at best.
 
Feb 17, 2012
1,061
77
Surbiton, Surrey
Survey completed, to say the questions were leading would be an understatement.
After some deliberation I answered no to the majority with my reasoning added - in the most part this was due to the fact that the proposals wouldn’t significantly impact under 18’s access to knives whilst at the same time being severely detrimental to the majority of people who legally own and use them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

daveO

Full Member
Jun 22, 2009
1,412
470
South Wales
Unfortunately that's exactly what raises hackles here: the "incremental" nature of controls. The very nature presupposes an eventual total ban at worst or government control at best.

It's worth remembering that it's not always government made laws that restrict knife carry. The fixed folder law was due to the ruling of one legal case and the interpretation of the law. In a way this is why it is better to start with clear laws that are less open to interpretation by some lawyer who doesnt care about the wider impacts of his arguements. If we could have consultations like this on such legal rulings it would make for a much more fair outcome I would hope.
 
I used to work at a shop that sold airsoft guns. We refused to sell to under 18's, not because it was illegal (this was sometime ago), but because we didn't want them getting into the hands of kids.
we even refused to discuss general enquirys with customers who weren't over 18. We also kept the prices at a high margin to discourage them getting into the wrong hands, and to keep them 'under the radar'.
unfortunately, you could never stop the stupid wealthy parents from buying their spoilts bratts whatever gun they nagged them for, nor could you prevent low life's from taking money off kids trying to 'get their hands on' a cheaper airsoft gun and coming in the shop and buying one for them... Even the main importer of electric and gas airsoft into the uk from Japan didn't want airsoft getting into the wrong hands... It really was a nightmare to police!
when the government cracked down on replica weapons and banned the open sale of them 'to a degree', I thought that was the end of airsoft, and kind of felt like it was an inevitable end to a sport never suited to the uk ( with our high proportion of criminals, inner city thugs, and generally stupid people).
However, to my surprise and shock I started to notice that the hobby actually started to grow from there on... Shops started popping up, the Internet took off and even the newsagents on the corner started selling airsoft magazines.
It seems that it had become such a popular sport, and had attracted so many prominent and 'clued up' people, that they had somehow bypassed the ban with a 'club membership' I think it was called SORN?
Maybe we as bushcrafters could look at something similar? By making meets/forums more official and introducing a fee/membership system, which would enable you to continue buying/selling...
Its just a suggestion, but I feel it's worth consideration. It would guarantee that the 'right' people were owning knives for bushcrafting, and would eliminate our hobby being linked to the awful online knives that the tabloids like to associate us with... Zombie knives etc.
thoughts?
 

Fadcode

Full Member
Feb 13, 2016
2,755
780
Cornwall
(Dave0)
If I was a small volume knife maker I'd be contacting RM and making some enquiries before chucking my tools in the skip. They seem to offer small volume collection services but as you say there might be an issue over insurance cover if you need a receipt from the actual shop.[/QUOTE]

From the Royal Mail Website

Annual spend with Royal Mail less than £15000
Timed Weekday Collection Chosen by Customer £1,792.00
Weekday Collection Allocated by RM £787.00
Saturday Collection Allocated by RM £246.00
Timed Saturday Collection Chosen by Customer £479.00
Annual spend with Royal Mail more than £15000
Weekday Collection Mutually agreed by RM and Customer Free

Hopefully it will save you the cost of a phonecall, unless you make a lot of knives......................
 

C_Claycomb

Mod
Mod
Oct 6, 2003
6,771
1,742
Bedfordshire
While the filling in of the questionnaire of the greatest importance during this consultation phase, many here are likely to find writing to their MP a daunting task. Where does one even begin, and how does one express one's concerns in a well reasoned and persuasive manner.


These letters were all written by members on Edge Matters and can be used as the basis of your letter if you need help and inspiration. Clearly they include information specific to the people writing them, and I think this is important. We don't want MPs getting identical copies of the same letter if we can help it.

Note, these are quoted un-altered, spelling/grammar and all.

Version 1:

Dear [MP Name]

I'm writing in the hope that I can gain your help and support in influencing the consultation currently taking place regarding the proposed changes to UK knife laws.

Over my lifetime I've been an avid Hiking, climbing, camping and bushcraft enthusiast. I've been a scout, a cadet and a D of E award participant. I've also developed a good working knowledge of knife types and mechanisms. I'd consider myself a knife enthusiast, that is to say I have collected, carried (within the bounds our our laws) and used a wide variety of knives over the last 25 years. I'm an active member of UK knife user forums and friends with UK based custom knife makers.

I'm deeply worried regarding the proposed changes to UK knife laws. The UK appears to be on the eve of passing laws which will make the UK the country with the toughest knife laws in the world. This is a moniker which will no doubt please many who live in larger cities where a knife is generally seen as a weapon. It will however deeply concern the politically silent majority of UK knife users to whom a knife is an essential daily tool.

The proposed changes have two key points that cause me, and a great many likeminded people, real concern.


Firstly, the proposed redefinition of the word 'flick knife' in law.

Flick knives are currently defined as a folding knife where pushing a button or lever on the handle activates a mechanism causing the blade to shoot out into the open position. They are totally banned in the UK and cannot legally be imported. I don't think one has been seen on the streets since the 80s and as far as I can find nobody have been injured at the hands of someone with a flick knife in over a decade, so to all extents and purposes the law fufilled it's purpose, they're gone.

The proposed redefinition of the term 'flick knife' will remove the requirement in the current definition for a blade opening mechanism to be present on the knife in order to consider the knife a 'flick knife'.

In essence this will mean that any knife that can be opened quickly can be considered a 'flick knife' under UK law. This is a problem because almost all pocket knives/locking knives can be opened quickly if you employ the right techniques.

The new 'flick knife' law, if interpreted in such a way by a magistrate, would instantly reclassify around 85% of currently legal to own pocket knives as a 'flick knife' despite the fact that in normal operation the blade would be opened slowly by the user. Overnight tens of thousands of people up and down the county will find that old folding knife in their sock/junk drawer, which they open slowly with their thumb, is now a banned 'flick knife' with a custodial sentence attached simply for possessing it in their own home. Countless sports enthusiast, tradesmen and emergency workers will overnight move from carrying an essential tool to commiting a serious crime for which their occupation or activities will not provide a lawful defence.

The vagueness of the propsed redefinition opens it to catastrophic misuse by the courts.

I don't use the term lightly, to illustrate, if an RNLI volunteer driving to his shift with a kit bag containing amongst other things a simple folding knife is commiting a offense to which the requirement of the tool for use in his job offers no lawful defence that is a catastrophic failure in law making.

That's where we'll be going unless the proposed redefinition is amended or better, scrapped altogether.


Secondly - A new law making it illegal to sell a knife to someone online and post it to their home address.

I fully agree that knives should not be available to those under 18 years of age. I accept that retailers are not currently taking their legal duty to confirm the age of their customers seriously. I buy knives regularly online and in 60% of cases I'm not asked to prove my age. This is simply laziness on the part of the retailers. They simply aren't doing what they're legally required to do, they're breaking the law.

Surely the logical solution to this issue is to toughen the laws and penalties around age verification for retailers. Making the risks of not attempting age verification so great that retailers stop shirking their responsibilities. Age checks are easy to do, the customer simply sends the retailer a copy of a drivers licence or a birth certificate with a utility bill showing the customers name and the delivery address and they can be reasonably sure that the customer over 18. I've done that 5 times already this year, no problem. Some retailers choose to use the electoral register to verify age, again no problem.

What the government is proposing instead is tantamount to a ban on posting knives. Ludicrous in a modern digital world where most of us use the internet to buy everything but our milk and we see fewer and fewer high street retailers who stock tools/hardware. There are many online camping/outdoors retailers who's survival is dependent on knife sales. Such companies will needlessly be forced to close doors when the ban takes effect.

More tragically hundreds of hugely talented UK custom knife makers and customisers many of whom operate and depend on their micro-business to sustain their families will find themselves unable to continue working. The talent pool in the UK is incredible, our knife and tool makers produce work that spans across the realm of ultra high quality tools into art, and the thought that this traditional craft will be lost in a generation is heart wrenching.

The truth of the matter is that simply using the government's own statistics for reference the measures above will have little to no impact on knife crime. The vast majority of knife crime involves the use of kitchen knives or knives found around the average house not knives bought online.

The proposal as it stands will stop hikers, campers, climbers, extreme sports and water sport practitioners, rescuers, farmers, tradesmen etc from being able carry the tools they need to do their job or partake in their hobby safely. It's easy to forget that knives save far more lives every year than they take.

My life has been saved twice in extreme circumstances and I once saved a young girl from serious injury in an escalator incident because all I had the right knife in my pocket.

If the proposed changes are introduced and I wish to continue partaking in outdoor activities I'll have to decide if I want to break the law or risk my life. That's not a choice I want to be forced to make.

In conclusion Sir whilst I whole-hearted agree that UK knife crime needs to be tackled this is not the right way to do it. The greatest impact will be on those who have nothing to do with gangs or violence whilst those who are minded to attack others with knives will still have ready access to them.

We need to commit resources to tackle criminal behaviour and not the inanimate objects that a criminal may pick up to make their life easier.

I feel that if you see your child in the driveway throwing gravel, the answer is not to pave the driveway. I'm looking for support from those who share that mindset.

Any advice or assistance you could offer in this matter would be gratefully received.

Kind Regards


Version 2:
Dear Sir

I'm writing in the hope that I can gain your help and support as my elected Member of Parliament with the consultation currently taking place regarding the proposed changes to UK knife laws.

Having read the proposals and reviewed the questionnaire that is part of the consultation, I am rather concerned about the proposed changes to UK knife laws, which appear to be heading towards being some of the toughest and most draconian in the world. While there cannot be any doubt that the prevention of knife crime is of great importance, it would appear the proposed legislation will have a consequential and negative impact on the great majority of people for whom knives and other edged tools are essential and/or daily tools. In this area of North East Hertfordshire, those likely to be negatively impacted include farmers, stable hands, game keepers, hunters, construction workers, first responders, craftspeople, chefs and home cooks.

The proposed changes in legislation have two key points that I find problematic:

Firstly, the proposed redefinition of the word 'flick knife' in law.

Flick knives are currently defined as a folding knife where pushing a button or lever on the handle activates a mechanism causing the blade to shoot out into the open position. They are totally banned in the UK and cannot legally be imported. I don't think one has been seen on the streets since the 80s and as far as I can find in available media and government sources nobody has been injured at the hands of someone with a flick knife in over a decade. To all extents and purposes it would appear the existing law has fulfilled its purpose, and continues to do so.

The proposed redefinition of the term 'flick knife' will remove the requirement under the current definition for a blade opening mechanism to be present on the knife for it to be considered a 'flick knife', it would just need to be possible to bring the blade into the open position quickly. The vagueness of this definition leaves substantial room for interpretation of just what could be considered a flick knife, and therefore illegal, opening up the possibility that almost any folding knife will fall under this definition.

This could have the effect that around 85% of currently legal to own pocket knives would instantly become defined as a 'flick knife', even though in normal operation the blade does not “shoot out into the open position”. Tens of thousands of people around the country will find that the old folding knife in their sock/junk drawer, which they open slowly with their thumb, is now a banned 'flick knife' with a custodial sentence attached simply for possessing it in their own home. This opens the possibility that the above-mentioned farmers, game keepers, hunters, and first responders will overnight move from carrying an essential tool to committing a serious crime for which their occupation or activities will not provide a lawful defence. By way of example, the vagueness of the proposed redefinition brings about the possibility that a hunter traveling to their permission, or a farmer moving from one field to another, with a folding knife in their kit or pocket is committing an offense punishable with a prison sentence because of a law designed to reduce the number of crimes more associated with inner cities and gang culture.


Secondly - A new law making it illegal to sell a knife to someone online and post it to their home address.


I fully agree that knives should not be available to those under 18 years of age. I accept that retailers are not currently taking their legal duty to confirm the age of their customers seriously. I buy knives online and am rarely, if ever, asked to prove my age beyond typing in a date of birth. This is a failure on the part of the retailers to observe and act within their legal requirements to verify the age of shoppers; this also applies to the purchase of alcohol, solvents, and corrosive substances too.

Proposing an outright ban on the purchase of knives over the internet (and presumably from mail order catalogues too) is a measure that entirely fails to address the cause of the problem. A more effective, logical, and measured approach would be to toughen the laws and penalties around age verification for retailers. This would put the onus on those currently breaking the law to take steps to stop breaking it, rather than impinging on everyone else’s ability to buy legal implements such as kitchen knives, chisels, planes, scissors, etc. that are rarely available from bricks and mortar retailers. Accurate and failsafe age/identity verification is not a complicated matter, and there are many architects and vendors of online tools that make this possible. It might be an overall more effective use of Parliament’s time and effort to define a national (or international!) standard for online age and identity verification that could apply to all online transactions (for example banking, health and welfare, housing, transport, accessing age-restricted websites, shopping).

The proposed legislation is tantamount to a ban on posting knives. This would be a retrograde step considering the rapid growth of online shopping overall, and the impact this has had on the availability of decent knives and tools in traditional retail outlets. As a keen home cook, I know that I have my pick of fantastic kitchen knives, either mass produced or lovingly crafted by a skilled maker in the UK, online; I cannot buy them in a regular shop. The same applies to cabinet makers, wood turners, carpenters, and their choice of tools. Enacting this legislation greatly curtails our choices as consumers, and will inevitably lead to the closing of numerous online retailers. Not to mention the impact it will have on individual craftspeople whose livelihoods are currently made from creating these knives and tools, and posting them to their customers.

To conclude, there can be no room for doubt that stopping knife crime is a laudable goal, however, the approaches mentioned above seem to be a little wide of the mark. I would politely request your assistance in making sure Parliament find the resources needed to tackle the root causes of knife crime through greater levels of community policing and outreach, and that they find suitable ways to stop knives falling into the hands of children without putting the rest of us in a situation where we will become criminals for using or buying a knife or edged tool in our day to day activities.

Yours faithfully

Version 3
Dear XXXX,

I am interested to get your opinions on the unintended impacts and consequences of the proposed legislation to deal with the very real issue of knife crime. I also have some questions about its impact on me as an individual. I am an Assistant Scout Leader in your constituency, and as such, the importance of educating children to treating knives safely as tools rather than weapons is very close to my heart.

The proposals have three areas of particular concern to me.

Updating the definition of a flick knife.
The proposals state 'We will delete the reference to the switch blade mechanism being in the handle as manufacturers now place the mechanism in a part of the knife that can be argued to be part of the blade'.

I am concerned that poor drafting, interpretation or case law may render the majority of folding knives illegal including 'Rescue knives' (a good example is the Spyderco Assist) which are designed for safely freeing people in such sports and pursuits as sailing and rock climbing.

Combined with the proposal 'Making it an offence to possess certain weapons in private' I am concerned that I and almost everyone involved in outdoor sports and the outdoor industry who owns a folding knife will be at risk of prosecution. I have a large number of knives and multi-tools in my house which I store for the use of scouts and also a few of my own. If this happens I will be given a harsh choice between being a criminal or being forced to destroy expensive and highly valued tools. This would also reduce the number of people educating children about the responsible use of knives as tools; actually increasing the likelihood of knife crime.

Creating Offences to prevent knives sold online being delivered to a private residential addresses. Again, I have a number of concerns:

  • The existing legislation already prohibits the sale to under 18s (this is a compliance issue). New legislation is not actually needed.
  • The incident which seemed to initiate the proposal involved Amazon, a large multinational (who pay very little taxes) who is not following the current law regarding knives, corrosive substances, alcohol or other age-restricted items. The legislation only pertains to knives and if really necessary, should surely be extended to all age-restricted items.
  • The proposals will impact large numbers of craftspeople making premium edged tools who run Small and Medium Enterprises supporting industries as diverse as Food, Forestry, Outdoor pursuits, Carpentry, Building and Men's grooming. It will also affect the ability of these trades to access the quality tools they need from UK makers and suppliers.
  • The proposals will not prevent foreign retailers sending knives to UK addresses, meaning the impact is solely on British retailers and craftspeople. Without careful consideration, the proposed legislation will have the unintended consequence of driving people who seek to illegally buy knives to the unregulated foreign market.
  • The businesses for whom the legislation impacts hardest (SMEs) have not demonstrated the same compliance issues with the current legislation. Many make use of verification systems such as driving licence and electoral roll checks not used by the multinationals. In many cases the customer has been known to them for years
  • The proposed legislation does nothing to reduce access by the under 18s to kitchen knives in the home, the carrying of which is already illegal without good reason. Greater use of stop and search on the under 18s would be more effective use of the current legislation
  • The legislation may make the situation worse by driving sales into the poorly regulated shop sector which already regularly demonstrates issues with compliance of existing legislation on, for example, alcohol.
  • I would recommend setting up a task force (compliance team) to ensure retailers follow the current legislation rather than legislating to push more pressure onto poorly funded local authority trading standards teams with reducing budgets. The smaller number of online retailers is easier to police (all it needs is a computer) than the huge shops sector.

In brief, I think the legislation will have minimal effect on knife crime, but a very large impact on law abiding citizens and small businesses, but if the government is determined to continue, I am hoping you can make enquiries to put my mind at rest and confirm the following:

  • That non-locking knives continue to be excluded from the ban
  • That one handed opening knives such as rescue knives are also excluded from the ban
  • The reason that alcohol and corrosive substances are not included in the ban on home deliveries
  • That funding is going to be found for HMRC to undertake additional checks on imports to prevent children illegally buying knives by ordering them from overseas online retailers
  • That additional funding is going to be found for Local Authority Trading standards to ensure that local retailers undertake age checks as knife sales move from UK online retailers
I am also interested in what the position of the opposition is to the proposals?


Yours sincerely
 

Fadcode

Full Member
Feb 13, 2016
2,755
780
Cornwall
I am trying my best to see some positivenesses in these new proposals, now if I am going to buy a knife I understand that I will have to go and pick it up, from my local Argos, Post Office etc, and understanding that will that put me off from buying the knife.....no I am lucky, I live in a town, and its not far to the Post Office, or sorting office.....................but I understand for some it would mean a long journey, depending on where the knife needs picking up from.

If I am selling a knife, I know my customer will have to go and pick it up, and prove he is over 18,(and it will take the responsibility from me to prove he is over 18), I also know, or will have to inform the customer that he will not have the knife delivered to his home address, and he will have to show documents to prove his age,address, etc........will that stop him buying?????

Now apart from the fact I sometimes buy knives, the only difference the new proposals will mean to me is I will have to go and pick up my purchases.

One other point, if by the new laws all legitimate knife sales are seen to be safe, eg. not sold to minors, there is no reason that legal knives cannot be sold on the likes of Ebay again, as they would effectively be controlled by law. And Ebay and the like would have no liabilities, as the knives would not be handed over to under 18's.......presumably.

To me the most worrying parts of the new legislation would be, the redefinition of "flick Knife", and the scrutiny of knives held in the home,

One other strange point, not entirely part of these new proposals,not long ago we were informed that although actual police officer numbers had gone down by thousands, it was ok, because crime was actually reducing, now in the last few days we are told that crime has increased to its highest level ever, over 5 million recorded crimes.at the same time, we are told the Met are not going to bother to investigate low level crime, and another police authority is doing away with community Police officers.....................the mind boggles........will the Police be bothered with these new proposals???????????????.

If we also look at the wider Issue, that is according to these new proposals the purpose is to stop minors under 18 from buying knives, then we can assume that as it is quite legal for a person over 18 to buy a legal knife, then there is no reason a person over 18 should not be allowed to carry a legal knife.
Now although that may seem a logical argument, it can't be true, and therefore we may assume that the true intention, must be to ban knives altogether.
( or am I being over pessimistic)
I do think we should all email. or write to our MP's, and at least make them aware that there are honest law abiding people out here who are going to be effected by these proposals in one way or the other.
 

daveO

Full Member
Jun 22, 2009
1,412
470
South Wales
From the Royal Mail Website

Annual spend with Royal Mail less than £15000
Timed Weekday Collection Chosen by Customer £1,792.00
Weekday Collection Allocated by RM £787.00
Saturday Collection Allocated by RM £246.00
Timed Saturday Collection Chosen by Customer £479.00
Annual spend with Royal Mail more than £15000
Weekday Collection Mutually agreed by RM and Customer Free

Hopefully it will save you the cost of a phonecall, unless you make a lot of knives......................

Those are business rates for low-medium volume sellers such as those that use ebay to sell their items. I think it's fair to say most knife makers will just use private rates as the discounts offered by the above won't really apply to them. RM offer one off or irregular collection services too but the website isn't very helpful for that which is why I suggested making a phonecall. I imagine they want to keep businesses running through their branches to keep them open with regular custom.
 

daveO

Full Member
Jun 22, 2009
1,412
470
South Wales
These letters were all written by members on Edge Matters and can be used as the basis of your letter if you need help and inspiration. Clearly they include information specific to the people writing them, and I think this is important. We don't want MPs getting identical copies of the same letter if we can help it.

I know I'm generally being ignored on this thread but it is really important to stick to the facts when writing to your MP. A 2 second google search will find instances of flick knife arrests in the last couple of years alone so saying they haven't been seen since the 80s or that no flick knife crime occurs these days just makes you sound naive.

http://www.cambstimes.co.uk/news/ma...eing-in-possession-of-a-flick-knife-1-4755995

http://www.getwestlondon.co.uk/news/west-london-news/dog-stabbed-death-flick-knife-12710303

Also does your MP really need to waste his time telling you why a restriction on alcohol sales isn't included in the 'offensive and dangerous weapons act'?
 

daveO

Full Member
Jun 22, 2009
1,412
470
South Wales
Maybe something more like:

Dear Sirs

The proposed changes to the Offensive and Dangerous Weapons act has recently been brought to my attention and I would appreciate a few minutes of your time to express some concerns that I have for the proposals.

I am a keen gardener, fisherman and I do a large amount of DIY and other craft projects. I am a member and regular contributor to a popular, internet-based Bushcraft community forum and spend a lot of my free time outdoors hiking and camping. As you can appreciate all of these activities have some requirement for the use of knives and other such tools.

Whilst I am in total agreement with the spirit of the new proposals I also have concerns that there is potential for the changes to have a serious impact on law abiding people who currently use knives on a day to day basis.

The proposals that mostly concern me are:
E. Updating the definition of a flick knife
The revised definition of a flick knife makes perfect sense given the justification provided, however I feel that the rewording that is being proposed is weakening an already poor definition to the point where it could be misconstrued in legal cases. This has the possibility of including a broad range of legal folding knives and tools within the definition of a ‘flick knife’ with the inevitable consequence that they would also become illegal due to case law.

I believe that the rewording of the definition needs to emphasis the ‘automatic opening’ and ‘spring loaded’ nature of flick knifes to prevent this from happening rather than just deleting the reference to the activating button being ‘on the handle’ of the knife. The current definition speaks vaguely of a ‘mechanism’ which in my opinion is too broad a word for the automatic opening systems that seem to be used.

For example the knife on a Leatherman multi-tool can be opened one-handed using a tab on part of the blade for leverage. A well-oiled hinge and a hard enough flick could open the blade but this does not mean it’s a ‘flick knife’. A lawyer could perhaps argue that a hinge is a ‘mechanism’. The intention of the flick knife definition is clearly not designed to include such tools but there is a concern that they could be implicated by association.

My Leatherman multitool is one of my most frequently used tools and its one-handed operation is crucial to its versatility. However as the knife and saw blades lock in place this tool has already been re-classified as a fixed blade knife in case law and as such can only be used on private property. Its upgrade from a ‘legal to carry’ folding knife to ‘fixed blade’ was due to what I consider to be a poorly defined legal definition. I have spoken to a number of people who use similar tools and are unaware that they are breaking the law by carrying such a seemingly harmless tool in a public place. The possibility that such a tool could be included in the Offensive and Dangerous Weapons Act is slim but not out of the question given the history of similar cases.
 

FoxyRick

Forager
Feb 11, 2007
138
2
54
Rossendale, England
It might be noteworthy that many police officers carry leatherman-type tools. I bet many of those are one-handed, and certainly lockers.

According to the letter of the law, I believe they are already on dodgy grounds with that, with regards to (not) needing it at all times for their jobs as we would be expected to prove. We can't carry one 'just in case', why should they? I've heard the argument from a copper that they are more likely to need it, so it's OK - rubbish.

If they got reclassified due to poor wording of the act, and subsequent stupid case law, it would remove a useful tool from them like it has already been removed from us.
 

hughtrimble

Full Member
Jan 23, 2012
331
25
UK/France
It might be noteworthy that many police officers carry leatherman-type tools. I bet many of those are one-handed, and certainly lockers.

According to the letter of the law, I believe they are already on dodgy grounds with that, with regards to (not) needing it at all times for their jobs as we would be expected to prove. We can't carry one 'just in case', why should they? I've heard the argument from a copper that they are more likely to need it, so it's OK - rubbish.

If they got reclassified due to poor wording of the act, and subsequent stupid case law, it would remove a useful tool from them like it has already been removed from us.

They can also carry collapsible truncheons, various noxious sprays, tazers sometimes etc. I'm sure they'll find a way around the blade issue!
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,871
1,085
65
Florida
I used to work at a shop that sold airsoft guns. We refused to sell to under 18's, not because it was illegal (this was sometime ago), but because we didn't want them getting into the hands of kids.
we even refused to discuss general enquirys with customers who weren't over 18. We also kept the prices at a high margin to discourage them getting into the wrong hands, and to keep them 'under the radar'.
unfortunately, you could never stop the stupid wealthy parents from buying their spoilts bratts whatever gun they nagged them for.....

That brings up two questions:

1) Does the law preventing knife sales to minors also prevent gifting a knife to your kids/grandkids? I know I've been giving knives to my grandkids as presents for various event (birthdays, Christmas, advancement in Scouting, etc) for decades. The Cub Scouts even present knives to members (Cubs are age 8 or so) And

2) Why do you think only wealthy adults give guns to their kids? I'm far from wealthy but like knives, I've made a habit of giving my grandsons their first .22 rifle around age 8 or 10 and their first bigger gun by or before age 12. It's kinda hard to teach them to hunt without a gun.
 

daveO

Full Member
Jun 22, 2009
1,412
470
South Wales
That brings up two questions:

1) Does the law preventing knife sales to minors also prevent gifting a knife to your kids/grandkids? I know I've been giving knives to my grandkids as presents for various event (birthdays, Christmas, advancement in Scouting, etc) for decades. The Cub Scouts even present knives to members (Cubs are age 8 or so) And

The law prevents the sale of knives to under 18s but doesn't prevent them possessing or carrying (legal) knives. I'm sure there used to be a rule that under 18s were immune from prosecution for carrying knives too but I'm not 100% on the details for that.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,871
1,085
65
Florida
The law prevents the sale of knives to under 18s but doesn't prevent them possessing or carrying (legal) knives. I'm sure there used to be a rule that under 18s were immune from prosecution for carrying knives too but I'm not 100% on the details for that.

Thanks. That makes more sense (not prohibiting, just a way to help ensure parental involvement/oversight)
 

slowworm

Full Member
May 8, 2008
1,384
383
Devon
To me the most worrying parts of the new legislation would be...

I've been thinning about that today, and I would be worried about what will be done if/when it becomes apparent any law change does not make much difference.

I know the consultation docs show it's easier for an under 18 to buy a knife online but I don't think they show what percentage of crime is committed by under 18s with a knife bought online and also conclude they would not have got the knife via other channels if they were stopped from buying it online.

I wonder how unlikely some form of knife licence is? Hopefully very unlikely but I can just see people having to justify a 3rd whittling knife and the Knife Licencing Officer asking why you can't manage with the other two you have or refusing you an axe as you don't have land access to use one. :nono:
 
That brings up two questions:

1) Does the law preventing knife sales to minors also prevent gifting a knife to your kids/grandkids? I know I've been giving knives to my grandkids as presents for various event (birthdays, Christmas, advancement in Scouting, etc) for decades. The Cub Scouts even present knives to members (Cubs are age 8 or so) And

2) Why do you think only wealthy adults give guns to their kids? I'm far from wealthy but like knives, I've made a habit of giving my grandsons their first .22 rifle around age 8 or 10 and their first bigger gun by or before age 12. It's kinda hard to teach them to hunt without a gun.

Only an irresponsible wealthy parent would have been able to afford the 300 quid plus, that they were selling for in the late 1990's.
 

Janne

Guest
Feb 10, 2016
12,368
2,283
Grand Cayman, Norway, Sweden
Why do you write 'irresponsible'?????

Only irresponsible if it is given without any instructions or teaching in its use.

Many of my friends were gifted their first shotgun and small bore rifle well before the age of 10.

A good way of making people responsible gun and knife owners and users is to start them off early. You know, I never saw a knife as something you took to school and showed off with.
Had I done so all guys (and most girls) would have laughed behind my back, or to my face, as most had own knives....

We need to foster a culture that looks on knives as useful tools, not some 'cool gangsta' accessories.
 
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