roe deer

[Dougster]

The line of spots along the spine and the ears look fallow to me, the other end is the dead give away. The antler are common in fallow when young.

I've shot a fair few roe this year and that doesn't look like any of 'em.

 

[JonathanD]

Certainly looks like a young fallow prickett to me.

 

[Niels]

It's eyes are right underneath the antler in the photo, with a roe deer the antlers are further back that's why I thought it was not a roe deer

 

[HeltorChasca]

Just got back from a bimble. Found 2 dead Roe about 1 click apart from each other. Both utterly butchered by scavenging badgers. Also saw 5 redwings and a dipper which was nice. Saw a kestrel (male) hunting from power lines which isn't unusual but whatever the snow has done to the grass by squashing it down it has exposed thousands of vole (best guess) tunnels probably making hunting easy ............hc

 

[WoodMan]

That picture is of a fallow pricket without a doubt. Roe only retain their spots until around three months of age.

No disrespect to any of the contributers to this topic but there are only six species of deer commonly considered wild in the UK, three are small deer (roe, muntjac and Chinese water deer) three are large (fallow, red and sika). Due to the rise in popularity of deer management courses such as the Deer Stalking Certificate Level One, there are plenty of helpful resources available relating to deer ID.

 

[Bowlander]

I was taking my 4 year old son to school the other day and 2 roe ran across the road in front of us. He immediately called out Roe Deer. I was well impressed until I questioned him later as to how he knew what sort of deer they were - he said because they were on the road! I was about to sign him up for his Level 1!

 

[JonathanD]

I saw a fair few fallow today with exactly the same coat. There was even a pricket peering around a tree at me...

 

[Niels]

I saw a fair few fallow today with exactly the same coat. There was even a pricket peering around a tree at me...

Nice pictures that. They look like roe deer in those except again the antlers are far forward of their ears. And I think a roe deer's white backside is bigger

 

[WoodMan]

Sure they're not Japanese sika JD?

 

[JonathanD]

Sure they're not Japanese sika JD?

100%. I've followed the Roe and Fallow in these woods for decades and see them nearly every day. Look at the length of the tail in that last pic.

Here's a fallow pricket in the same location last Summer...

 

[WoodMan]

Look at the dark black horseshoe surrounding the tail and see how it curves in rather than stopping higher up, also the White metatarsal gland on the hock (only visible in the photo of the spiker) and the prominent 'frown'. If you manage to get a closer look at the ears, you will see a black mark inside the lower ear. They will be spotted in their summer coat and the spots will come down lower than on fallow and tend not to finish in a single, coalesced line. I am certain that those are sika.

The fallow pricket in the lower photos is the menil colour variety, he has no black hairs on his tail or rump surround. He will retain his spots in the winter and just go a darker, duller colour. The common variety loose nearly all their spots in the winter pelage. The black or melanisic variety don't appear to have spots in either coat when viewed from a distance but, up close, you can see them faintly in summer. The forth colour variety of fallow is White or leucristic, these are not albinos as many people think.

Not trying to be a smart **** but I work with deer everyday. If I can find time I will try to write a summary of all six species.

Glyn.

 

[JonathanD]

I'd agree with you on every point, but for a few things, I originally thought there were Sika here, and was told otherwise. Here's a distribution map for Sika. I'm smack bang in the centre of the area where they don't occur.

I'm no deer expert, far from it, but these are right slap bang in the middle of my survey area, which here is quite a small area. As a zoologist specialising in sole species study, I have to liaise with the local experts. The foresters and mammal experts that work that area only report two deer species, fallow and roe. I will pass your post onto them all, and the pictures and see what they say. All I can say, is that I have never seen a buck with Sika-like antlers. They have all had very characteristic fallow antlers.

I've seen Sika many a time further south in the UK and they all fan the hairs out on their butts when alarmed. These by me, don't. And most lack the dark stripe that Sika seem to have.

There aren't any deer farms near here that would suggest an escapee or release, but it will be interesting to see what the locals say about it. That last thing this area needs is another introduced deer species. Fallow are over populating the area as it is.

Is there any evidence of cross species breeding?

 

[WoodMan]

Fair enough mate, I'd be interested to hear what the local experts have to say, be sure to show them the last photo of the spiker where you can see his rump and hind leg. Have you got a trail camera and is the area suitable for trail cam use? ie won't get stolen?

Those British Deer Society distribution maps are not great (not knocking the BDS, I do a lot of stuff with them) the information is collected by well meaning amateurs and mistakes get make particularly between sika and fallow. The map you've put up shows sika in my area and I manage the deer on 25,000 acres but have never seen sight nor sound of one!

If you want to send me your email address I'll send some photos that might be interesting for comparison.

Best wishes,
Glyn.

 

[JonathanD]

Hey Glyn,

I'd agree with you. I wonder whether any hybridisation has occurred here. I can only say my experiences are never to have found a sika antler, only ever fallow and roe.

I'm on the border of Wales/England right in the middle of that big white spot. But that doesn't mean that there is someone breeding the things up here and have had escapees. If that is the case though, they are recent escapees and are mingling with the local fallow - does that happen?

I've emailed the pictures to all the people involved in the area that have any knowledge or interest. So I await their answer.

I wish I had taken more butt shots.

 

[WoodMan]

The only deer spp in the UK that can interbreed are red and sika as they are both of the genus cervus. It's interesting that you say that you originally thought there were sika there, one thing that we teach students is to listen to your first impression then use the evidence to prove or disprove.

As you know from your field, you should never say never or always when talking about natural history as there are often anomalies but some things are pretty certain for example, I've never seen a roe that didn't have two White spots on it's upper lip. You can use this simple fact to positively ID roe in photos nearly all the time as they are nearly always looking at the photographer.

 

[WoodMan]

As sika are herding deer they adapt well to being kept in parks or enclosures, even quite small ones. It's perfectly feasible to suggest that a small group of sika could have escaped from a park, almost all feral deer populations started this way with the exeption of a few deliberate releases.

One of the main reasons that I come on this website is that there are such a diverse range of people and interests, if we were on a 'deer' website having this discussion it would have degenerated by now into 'what's the best calibre to shoot them with'! Then, 'I've shot one further away than you' and, of course, 'mine had bigger antlers!'

 

[Adze]

I took these this morning, near Bagshot in Surrey:

I'm quite sure he's a buck, as this pic bears witness to:

None too happy, it seemed, at having to share the field with an hundred head of sheep, but also unwilling to leap a 4 foot fence topped with barbed wire... can't say I blame him either way!

 

[TurboGirl]

Awwww, he's a healthy looking young un! He'll learn sense or grow those muscles soon

 

[Adze]

I think I've found the reason the young buck pictured above wanted out of the field. Nothing to do with the sheep:

there's a bigger buck!

 

[unijaw]

I bumped into a bunch of them near Westbury the other day right near a busy road with a deer sign ( I friggen hit my head on it as well -.-) I got very close but a stag spotted me. From what I could tell it was one stag and three doe. The forest was absolutely filled with deer droppings but I saw none of them the entire night and I only saw these four because of the noise of the road allowed me to get so close. I got a good look at what deer tracks look like the stag did a big jump and left a very firm print for me to take a look at. I got the feeling that because of the amount of deer droppings by my camp and the area being moss covered and mostly free of dead fallen twigs there's a good chance a bunch were very close to me at some point in the night.