Rich Hall and American Indians

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boatman

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Feb 20, 2007
2,444
4
75
Cornwall
I do not think I implied that at all Santaman. With respect, do not assume the same level of ignorance about American prehistory, often displayed by Americans, over here.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,867
1,082
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Florida
I do not think I implied that at all Santaman. With respect, do not assume the same level of ignorance about American prehistory, often displayed by Americans, over here.

I've found it generally romanticized on both side of the Atlantic. Don't assume your knowledge of our (those of us with American Indian family) pre Columbian history (not prehistoric) is as ignorant as those who of you who don't. And whether you meant to imply it or not, you did.
 
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santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,867
1,082
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Only by certain metrics and given that according to more than a few sources the active discrimination persists to this day in much more enlightened times I'd say you're very wrong unless you're reducing the genocide to a mere headcount.

Besides, it makes little difference to the point I was making as none of my ancestors were Spanish either...

Well that is the parameters of genocide; the attempt to kill an entire race. As for the discrimination today that's a mixed bag. Indeed in areas with a significant Native American population there is a lasting prejudice still today. Outside those areas not so much. One might argue that it's counterbalanced by the mandated preferential treatment: Companies get incentives for hiring Native Americans (as a minority) Native Americans are eligible for tax breaks (generally most states don't tax anything on the reservations, including casinos) They're eligible for educational assistance such as free or reduced tuition and fees as well as preferential acceptance to universities (again, because of their minority status) They get that preferential treatment for business loans and a government guarantee of repayment, and others I haven't learned yet (I'm learning more from my SIL every day)
 

Robson Valley

Full Member
Nov 24, 2014
9,468
2,212
McBride, BC
It's called "cultural genocide." It stops just short of physical but the thousands of native kids who "disappeared" from the residential schools do not have to be answered for.
Everybody admits to the savage & brutal treatment that the rest of them were subjected to.
Don't ignore the 60's Scoop. Look it up. Their quality of life here on the rez is often quite the opposite of preferential treatment, mandated or not.
Even the reserves with no roads, no bridges, no health care and bad (mercury, etc) water are not so subtle segregation.
La Loche. Fort Ware. Dease Lake. Hundreds of others. You'll love them all.
 

Rich D

Forager
Jan 2, 2014
143
10
Nottingham
I was born in England, my kids were born in England and although as far as I know none of my ancestors were involved in government decisions during the empire and may well have been exploited, used and cannon foddered themselves I and my children have directly benefited from the distructio and pillaging of other nations. The GB is a g8 nation for a reason and part of that is from taking resources and people from over nations, we may have had william Wilberforce but as a nation we were still economically advataged from the revenues from slavery. my children and myself are extremely economically fortunate to have been born in the uk. Dismissing the decisions made by your own nation a d the benefits gained from them by saying i wasnt responisble if fair enough if you're not still benefiting and i'd argue that me and my kids are just by being born here. I have ni answer, but think we should be a bit more open about the mistakes of the past (and hoepfully learn from that to stop repeating them) If this is too close to politics then mods feel free to delete
 

Adze

Native
Oct 9, 2009
1,874
0
Cumbria
www.adamhughes.net
Well that is the parameters of genocide; the attempt to kill an entire race. As for the discrimination today that's a mixed bag. Indeed in areas with a significant Native American population there is a lasting prejudice still today. Outside those areas not so much. One might argue that it's counterbalanced by the mandated preferential treatment: Companies get incentives for hiring Native Americans (as a minority) Native Americans are eligible for tax breaks (generally most states don't tax anything on the reservations, including casinos) They're eligible for educational assistance such as free or reduced tuition and fees as well as preferential acceptance to universities (again, because of their minority status) They get that preferential treatment for business loans and a government guarantee of repayment, and others I haven't learned yet (I'm learning more from my SIL every day)

It is but one metric. How many American Indians live in their ancestral lands free from Federal Government controls as sovereign people? The original aim of the US persecution was the destruction of the American Indian. That has been as successfully prosecuted as the Spanish extermination of the Arawak or the Aztec.

The financial and minority status incentives are great for individuals and families. Not so much for the nations and tribes as a whole. Can you be wholely one thing when a good proportion of your upbringing and education is something foreign and either enforced or incentivized to the point of being unavoidable? Give 'em everything, except the one thing they demand.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,867
1,082
65
Florida
It's called "cultural genocide." It stops just short of physical but the thousands of native kids who "disappeared" from the residential schools do not have to be answered for.
Everybody admits to the savage & brutal treatment that the rest of them were subjected to.
Don't ignore the 60's Scoop. Look it up. Their quality of life here on the rez is often quite the opposite of preferential treatment, mandated or not.
Even the reserves with no roads, no bridges, no health care and bad (mercury, etc) water are not so subtle segregation.
La Loche. Fort Ware. Dease Lake. Hundreds of others. You'll love them all.

True RV. At least up to a point. Ours do get government medical care on the reservation albeit poor care (the PHS) Apart from that the life on the reservations (or near them) is what I was referring to when I said the discrimination is still very active in areas where there's a significant Native population. The preferential treatment is more common when they move away from those areas (although some discrimination still occurs there as well) The preferential treatment ON the reservation is limited. Yeah free tuition to universities but you have to actually go off res to get to a uni. Yeah corporations give hiring preference but again, you have to leave the res to find a corporation (other than the casinos, and since everybody on the res IS a Native American, such preference doesn't mean much there)
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,867
1,082
65
Florida
It is but one metric. How many American Indians live in their ancestral lands free from Federal Government controls as sovereign people? The original aim of the US persecution was the destruction of the American Indian. That has been as successfully prosecuted as the Spanish extermination of the Arawak or the Aztec.

The financial and minority status incentives are great for individuals and families. Not so much for the nations and tribes as a whole. Can you be wholely one thing when a good proportion of your upbringing and education is something foreign and either enforced or incentivized to the point of being unavoidable? Give 'em everything, except the one thing they demand.

This would have been a great argument a century ago, although it would have fallen on deaf ears. Now that cultural identity is all but lost already. Indeed, there's not a large enough Native population of any single nation to make resurrecting it anything more than a remote dream. Sadly.
 

Leshy

Full Member
Jun 14, 2016
2,394
55
Wiltshire
This would have been a great argument a century ago, although it would have fallen on deaf ears. Now that cultural identity is all but lost already. Indeed, there's not a large enough Native population of any single nation to make resurrecting it anything more than a remote dream. Sadly.
If that is true, then it is indeed very sad.
 

tsitenha

Nomad
Dec 18, 2008
384
1
Kanata
Hahahah , thread well and truly derailed 

I'm going to go all Canadian on this (despite my Wiltshur status ) and admit that I'm a sucker for pancakes with maple syrup .
I'll just about do anything for a plate of those in the morning....

Try to infuse the maple syrup with cranberry juice, my cousins in Wahta make this, this cousin can't have enough. YO
 

tsitenha

Nomad
Dec 18, 2008
384
1
Kanata
It's called "cultural genocide." It stops just short of physical but the thousands of native kids who "disappeared" from the residential schools do not have to be answered for.
Everybody admits to the savage & brutal treatment that the rest of them were subjected to.
Don't ignore the 60's Scoop. Look it up. Their quality of life here on the rez is often quite the opposite of preferential treatment, mandated or not.
Even the reserves with no roads, no bridges, no health care and bad (mercury, etc) water are not so subtle segregation.


La Loche. Fort Ware. Dease Lake. Hundreds of others. You'll love them all.

+1,2,3 RB. now for some frybread and maple/cranberry syrup :cool:
 

Joonsy

Native
Jul 24, 2008
1,483
0
UK
most of the white immigrant settlers didn't want to assimilate into the native populations way of life but wanted to occupy their land, with ever increasing numbers of white immigrants the federal government created ''The Dawes Act'' in 1887, it makes interesting reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawes_Act

''The Dawes Act'', sometimes called ''The General Allotment Act'', authorised the federal government to break up tribal lands into individual plots / only those native americans who accepted the individual allotments were allowed to become US citizens / the objective of The Dawes Act was to assimilate the native population into the immigrant settlers way of life by annihilating their cultural and social traditions / over ninety million acres of tribal land was seized from the native population and sold to the non-native population.

The link below makes interesting reading, how ''The Dawes Act'' was created to confiscate land from the native population, and force the native population to change their way of life while telling them it was for their own good.

https://blog.oup.com/2012/02/dawes-act-congress-indian-reservations/
 

Leshy

Full Member
Jun 14, 2016
2,394
55
Wiltshire
Try to infuse the maple syrup with cranberry juice, my cousins in Wahta make this, this cousin can't have enough. YO
Kwékwé. She:kon.
Skennenkó:wa ken?

Nia:wen ko:wa.


I will try that , but I suspect your cousin's cranberries will be fresher and sharper than our pre packaged cranberry juice available ...

I know the Mohawk nation in Wahta grow some of the finest Cranberry in the Northern Hemisphere so it's no surprise you put it to good use. 👍

I will try that .


Nia:wen ko:wa.


O:nen ki:wahi.
 
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Leshy

Full Member
Jun 14, 2016
2,394
55
Wiltshire
most of the white immigrant settlers didn't want to assimilate into the native populations way of life but wanted to occupy their land, with ever increasing numbers of white immigrants the federal government created ''The Dawes Act'' in 1887, it makes interesting reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawes_Act

''The Dawes Act'', sometimes called ''The General Allotment Act'', authorised the federal government to break up tribal lands into individual plots / only those native americans who accepted the individual allotments were allowed to become US citizens / the objective of The Dawes Act was to assimilate the native population into the immigrant settlers way of life by annihilating their cultural and social traditions / over ninety million acres of tribal land was seized from the native population and sold to the non-native population.

The link below makes interesting reading, how ''The Dawes Act'' was created to confiscate land from the native population, and force the native population to change their way of life while telling them it was for their own good.

https://blog.oup.com/2012/02/dawes-act-congress-indian-reservations/

Joonsy , interesting links.
Just when you thought you'd heard it all
....😞

I'd heard of it but was not aware of the scale .

Thanks for sharing.
 

tsitenha

Nomad
Dec 18, 2008
384
1
Kanata
I and many of my immediate cousins were products of the effects of res school, we lost language and culture. I am trying to learn language and hence culture.
I am envious of your ability to speak let alone write Kanien'kehá:ka, we were not allowed to speak at home (any trespass was treated severely).
My heart is red and sweet, my tongue is European, my dreams are ironically Haudenosaunee. I hear the words but do not easily understand them, my adopted sister has to translate them for me.
Your right my cousins do make very good products.
In 1881 the Kanien'kehá:ka, at Oka were separated into 3 bands, one stayed at Kanehsatà:ke, an other part was sent to Bala which became Wahta
The third part to lands near Cochrane Ontario, but they were not able to get reservation status.
I do make/craft items and I am told that they are among the best. (of course I am Kanien'kehá:ka :lmao:)
Nya:wen
 
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Leshy

Full Member
Jun 14, 2016
2,394
55
Wiltshire
I and many of my immediate cousins were products of the effects of res school, we lost language and culture. I am trying to learn language and hence culture.
I am envious of your ability to speak let alone write Kanien'kehá:ka, we were not allowed to speak at home (any trespass was treated severely).
My heart is red and sweet, my tongue is European, my dreams are ironically Haudenosaunee. I hear the words but do not easily understand them, my adopted sister has to translate them for me.
Your right my cousins do make very good products.
In 1881 the Kanien'kehá:ka, at Oka were separated into 3 bands, one stayed at Kanehsatà:ke, an other part was sent to Bala which became Wahta
The third part to lands near Cochrane Ontario, but they were not able to get reservation status.
I do make/craft items and I am told that they are among the best. (of course I am Kanien'kehá:ka :lmao:)
Nya:wen

Nya:wen

I would love to see some of your craft items , PM inbound .
👍
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,867
1,082
65
Florida
most of the white immigrant settlers didn't want to assimilate into the native populations way of life but wanted to occupy their land, with ever increasing numbers of white immigrants the federal government created ''The Dawes Act'' in 1887, it makes interesting reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawes_Act

''The Dawes Act'', sometimes called ''The General Allotment Act'', authorised the federal government to break up tribal lands into individual plots / only those native americans who accepted the individual allotments were allowed to become US citizens....

Actually they didn't universally get US citizenship until the Indian Citizenship Act of 1924. www.nebraskastudies.org/0700/stories/0701_0146.html
 

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