Rich Hall and American Indians

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rik_uk3

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Jun 10, 2006
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He is a comedian and satirist who has good rep in the UK. Not popular some some Americans because he 'attacks' some US systems/institutions but heck, he does the same with UK ones too. :) LOL

He's done some great documentaries which are on youtube and are overall well worth looking at, I can't post links because some involve politics et al.
 

rik_uk3

Banned
Jun 10, 2006
13,320
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Joonsy thanks for the video link ...
Joonsy has hit the nail on the head and I totally agree with his sentiment.

Obviously , only generally speaking though as different tribes and different individuals have different agendas and morals .
But nowhere has the "white man" deceived and betrayed a people's like they did with the first nations.

No wonder the Native American description of the white man's language is that of a "forked tongue", as one thing was promised and other delivered.
Unfortunately still going on today , taking down and backing down treaty after treaty...
It's a disgrace.
Dakota access pipe line , standing rock , Amazon basin and Pantanal in Brazil.
Terra del fuego amongst many others ...

The bottom line is very much explained in the newspaper clipping that I posted here earlier...

Corporate greed is like rust ...
It never sleeps .





Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk


Did a pretty good job messing up Eskimo/Inuit/Australian Aboriginals and of course many African people in their home lands.
 

Leshy

Full Member
Jun 14, 2016
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Wiltshire
Did a pretty good job messing up Eskimo/Inuit/Australian Aboriginals and of course many African people in their home lands.
Indeed... But that's a whole different can of worms.👍

Rich hall is great, I love his observational comedy , and I am somewhat surprised he isn't more popular in the US.

Thanks for sharing that first link Rick 👍
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,867
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Tanisi Joe !✋

Thank you for taking the time to reply.
No offense was meant by it.

I guess only some of the tribes and maybe even, just some of the individuals of some of the tribes...

Like I said , some of the individuals covered their faces for fear of having their soul stolen , even though some of their fellow tribesmen had pictures taken with no consequence at all.


I know politics are not allowed on this forum , and so I'm trying to be careful on how I word this...
More of an environmental issue than a political one to be honest...

But am I right in thinking you live in or near some of the areas being affected by the XL pipeline ?
Tar sands and the pipeline seems to be of great grievance and huge impact on the local people and ecosystem.

How has that affected you personally and/or the area of which you track and hunt?
Has there been displacement of people as a result?

Tānsi kitihtēn?


ni mēwēyihtēn ēh-wāpimitān

Best regards


On a strictly environmental basis one has to ask what has the most potential to do harm? Said pipeline? or a rail accident spilling an equally large amount of crude (said crude currently goes by those rail cars) How do either compare environmentally with the glut of casinos being built on reservation lands? Also interesting to note that the vast majority of the opposition to the pipeline is being financed by the rail companies.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,867
1,082
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He is a comedian and satirist who has good rep in the UK. Not popular some some Americans because he 'attacks' some US systems/institutions but heck, he does the same with UK ones too. :) LOL

He's done some great documentaries which are on youtube and are overall well worth looking at, I can't post links because some involve politics et al.

To be completely honest I'd never heard of him before this thread.
 

Swallow

Native
May 27, 2011
1,542
2
London
Why do many white people think we were all the same?

For the same reason people sometimes put all Irish into the same group. (or Scottish, or Welsh or English, or Americans etc. etc.). Unless you've spent time with and know the local tribes, your frame of reference is one big tribe.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,867
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For the same reason people sometimes put all Irish into the same group. (or Scottish, or Welsh or English, or Americans etc. etc.). Unless you've spent time with and know the local tribes, your frame of reference is one big tribe.

Close, but not quite. Within any given people/nation individuals can be and are different. But whereas the Irish are a single nation, likewise the Scots or the Welsh, the Native Americans are actually several different nations ("tribes" are divisions within each nation) Rather than comparing Native Americans to any single nation, a more accurate way to think of it would be to compare them to the peoples of the European continent. Dozens of different European nations compares to dozens of different Native American nations (both cases are spread over an entire continent with vast variations of climate, environment, and cultures)
 

Toddy

Mod
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Jan 21, 2005
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Woah!

No. The Irish are most definitely not one nation, and don't confuse a Highlander with a Lowlander or call an Orcadian, Scottish. Teuchter and Sassenach end up fighting talk.
Then someone says but we're all British and the fights break out again :rolleyes:

M
 

Leshy

Full Member
Jun 14, 2016
2,394
55
Wiltshire
On a strictly environmental basis one has to ask what has the most potential to do harm? Said pipeline? or a rail accident spilling an equally large amount of crude (said crude currently goes by those rail cars) How do either compare environmentally with the glut of casinos being built on reservation lands? Also interesting to note that the vast majority of the opposition to the pipeline is being financed by the rail companies.

For your first part of the question , the simple answer ...
In one word:

Both .

Both scenarios could cause untold damage and neither are ideal or safe.

The pipeline's main implication and objection , is that it IS compromising the water supply for local people even further. And goes further , and ignores the treaties established years ago to negotiate peace and justice with the Native American people.

Water is already a commodity , and in some parts of the world , worth more than gold.
I'm not sure how it is where you are , but last time I checked, California was already aware and in deep trouble with the water scarcity problem...

These people just want to stop the poisoning of their land , of their rivers and their human rights .

The right to exercise their power to protect their land and water .
Let's not forget Water IS a human right , and no corporate entity can deliberately deprive anyone of it , with the intent of profiteering or not.

And in some cases is also about displacement and the loss of sacred sites and land with spiritual importance...

http://www.ocetisakowincamp.org/



On a different note now...


For at least 20 years the USA have been involved in shale gas extraction, commonly known as fracking.
We may very soon have this same practice rammed down our aquifers in the UK , if we like it or not...
Fracking?!

Where , for those not familiar with it I'll explain;

... a big hole gets drilled deep into the ground , thousands of highly volatile and dangerous chemicals (including known carcinogens) mixed with water get pumped down into the whole, the chemical reaction and pressure of the fluid causes the layer of shale rock to FRACTURE , hence the fracking name, thus releasing the gas to be harnessed.

The process of extraction is a dangerous one and one single accident can contaminate millions of M³ of pure fossil aquifers and therefore Rivers and respective tributaries.
First the invertebrates die, after that a chain reaction starts and everything , including some of the rarest birds that visit our streams , such as the kingfisher , will die too.
Not to mention our own fresh water supply in the UK.
The devastation would be abhorrent and irreversible .

That's just 1 ! , just ONE of the environmental impacts and causes for concern.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_hydraulic_fracturing


If previous activities and historical​ accidents, such as the horrific Deep water horizon in 2010

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepwater_Horizon_oil_spill



Are anything to go by , then it's skating on very thin ice , in my opinion..

Where corporate giants like BP , that should know better and have the systems in place to prevent such catastrophic disasters, choose to neglect their safety systems and more, in the event of an accident choose to cover up and blatantly LIE about the extent of the damage , and systematically fail to remediate the problem ....

http://m.huffpost.com/us/news/bp-oil-spill-cover-up


In the face of this, why should people just standby and watch this sort of unchecked destruction carry on?

It's not like an isolated incident either , I mean it's repeated throughout history , again and again and again...

Profit before people , and lies before truth.

Money IS , the root of all evil .


I don't think you are serious, when you say that the vast majority of people opposing the pipeline is being funded by the rail companies.

I oppose the displacement of the indigenous people and the construction of a monster that will line the pockets of the cleptocrats at the expense of the local people ! Not just in the USA but anywhere in the world....

I do not receive a penny by any rail companies ...And neither do the hundreds and thousands of people trying to put a stop to that.😄


I'm sorry to disagree with you , but we are all educated adults here , so we can agree and disagree amicably with no hard exchanges or strong words, right? 👍

How does that compare to the glut of the casinos being built on Reservations ?

I'm sorry but I think you answered your own rhetorical question there...

It doesn't.

It doesn't compare at all .
That's a rhetorical question right?

The environmental impact of buildings and casinos , hotels etc , doesn't even compare to the scale of the Keystone XL pipeline...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystone_Pipeline#Keystone_XL

About 3.500 km long last time I checked , from Alberta Canada to Houston Texas and all the land in between....

That's why it's called XL .




Sure , some people are profiteering greatly with the relaxed laws on gambling within the reservation territory , but that's their business and it's the way the cookie crumbles...

Im not so sure Las Vegas is a positive contribution to the US economy or environment either but that's not relevant to this topic , I don't think...

I hope my reply is within the rules and parameters of acceptable discussion on this forum, and by no means do I intend to create discord .

I am, with all due respect, interested in hearing your own answers to your questions Santaman as I don't live in the States and all my information is second hand...
The grassroots and what happens on the ground is often more informative than what we get fed on (often biased) information channels , so I look forward to your response Sir 👍

Best regards
 
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santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
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........How does that compare to the glut of the casinos being built on Reservations ?

I'm sorry but I think you answered your own rhetorical question there...

It doesn't.

It doesn't compare at all .
That's a rhetorical question right?

The environmental impact of buildings and casinos , hotels etc , doesn't even compare to the scale of the Keystone XL pipeline...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystone_Pipeline#Keystone_XL.....

The casinos themselves have very little environmental impact. However they are the first step to further commercial development. That all means more people, more infrastructure, more roads, more buildings, more sewage, more golf courses (sucking up that precious water) etc. I've watched along the Gulf Coast in 3 states. And yes, profit first is the motive in both cases. Along the Gulf Coast casinos were built, are owned, and siphon money to outside owners. On the reservations they're all built and owned tribally and the vast majority of the profits remains with them as it should. But it's a profit first motive none-the-less.

The primary objection I have against the pipeline is indeed that it's across Indian lands. But as far as poisoning the water, the rails are already transporting that oil through much more heavily populated areas. Please show me just which pipeline is going to poison our water:

pipeline+accidents+final+animation1-2.gif

Several of these are well over 100 years old and now they want to block replacing them with newer, safer ones?
 
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santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,867
1,082
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Florida
Woah!

No. The Irish are most definitely not one nation, and don't confuse a Highlander with a Lowlander or call an Orcadian, Scottish. Teuchter and Sassenach end up fighting talk.
Then someone says but we're all British and the fights break out again :rolleyes:

M

Yeah Mary. Those are differences that could compare to "tribes" rather than "nations." The differences between Highlanders and Lowlanders (who are bothe Scots) compare easily to the differences between tribes of the Choctaw Nation living along the coast (the Biloxi, the Pascagoula, etc) vs those living 100 or more miles inland (the (the Porch Creek, etc)

The differences between the Scots and the Polish (two very different nations) compare better to the differences between two different Indian nations (say the Choctaw and the Apache)
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
36,883
2,762
S. Lanarkshire
Ehm, actually there are an awful lot of Poles with Scottish roots :)

No, they are different nations here, not tribes.
Social evolution produces family, clan, tribe and state. Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland are two different states.

Arguably though, Scotland and Wales are also states, and the Highlands only really came under the control of the King of Scots once the Lords of the Isles were reduced….and that bother lasted on until after the Jacobite uprisings and the governments stated attempts to make the Highlands more industrious and lowland like (I've not quoted the rest of that determination, using the monies from the forfeited estates as it's support; some things we don't discuss here) The Shetland Islanders, and the Orkney Islander use flags that are a mix of the Scottish ones and the Norwegian ones. Tribes or states ? Similarly Man, and the Channel Isles ?

M
 

Joonsy

Native
Jul 24, 2008
1,483
0
UK
seeing the same subject from different viewpoints once had disastrous consequences concerning a Cree called ''Almighty Voice''. Arrested for killing a cow for food a guard ''joked'' to him that the penalty was death by hanging, Almighty Voice didn't see the funny side and took it seriously, he escaped and a long manhunt ensued ending in deaths on both sides including himself.

vid here --- http://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1778473702

or full story here --- http://www.biographi.ca/en/bio/kitchi_manito_waya_12E.html
 
Tansi

Oh, dear did I start all this?.

Sorry folks, was tired after a long and hard trip due to bad weather (too warm!! ha ha) when I posted my previous messages. They say more about me than criticism of you. And I aint got no axe to grind with what went on in the past. Well, Sort of but..............I'll answer some of your individual questions tomorrow as were are a bit busy at the moment.
 

Leshy

Full Member
Jun 14, 2016
2,394
55
Wiltshire
The casinos themselves have very little environmental impact. However they are the first step to further commercial development. That all means more people, more infrastructure, more roads, more buildings, more sewage, more golf courses (sucking up that precious water) etc. I've watched along the Gulf Coast in 3 states. And yes, profit first is the motive in both cases. Along the Gulf Coast casinos were built, are owned, and siphon money to outside owners. On the reservations they're all built and owned tribally and the vast majority of the profits remains with them as it should. But it's a profit first motive none-the-less.

The primary objection I have against the pipeline is indeed that it's across Indian lands. But as far as poisoning the water, the rails are already transporting that oil through much more heavily populated areas. Please show me just which pipeline is going to poison our water:

pipeline+accidents+final+animation1-2.gif

Several of these are well over 100 years old and now they want to block replacing them with newer, safer ones?

I see ...
Now I understand your questions and comparisons.
And also understand your statement about the rail companies losing out on the contract as soon as the pipeline is up and running...

I get it now, thanks for that Santaman.

Of course demographics, land development , infrastructure and sewage, golf courses and the likes are all going to have a huge impact on the local environment, no doubt about that .

And as you rightly said, profit is still profit nonetheless , regardless of where the money is going and who is making it.

I also totally agree with you when you say the oil is already being transported through densely populated areas and perhaps even rivers and other important natural habitats, its a real gamble , and another reason to stop the fossil fuel industry ...

but I'm under no illusions and I know that as long as there is money to be made the wheel will keep on spinning, as money talks.


The DAPL however is an area of concern

At issue for the tribes is the 1,172-mile Dakota Access Pipeline, or DAPL, which runs through North and South Dakota, Iowa and Illinois and has a capacity to transport more than 500,000 barrels of oil a day. The $3.8 billion pipeline now under construction was approved by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers to cross under the Missouri River a mile north of the reservation.

That river is the source of water for the reservation’s 8,000 residents. Any leak, tribal leaders argue, would cause immediate and irreparable harm. And tribal leaders point to what they consider a double standard, saying that the pipeline was originally going to cross the Missouri north of Bismarck, the state capital, but was rerouted because of powerful opposition that did not want a threat to the water supply there.

The tribe says it also is fighting the pipeline’s path because, even though it does not cross the reservation, it traverses sacred territory taken away from the tribe in a series of treaties that have been forced upon it over the past 150 years.
b9ec94dc3af7034b0f316de6482a73b6.jpg



But...
It really doesn't matter who is drilling and for who's benefit, the trouble is the impact the industry has on the environment.
I mean 500.000 barrels of crude oil everyday , under the Missouri river?
It's just an accident waiting to happen.


As for which pipeline I was referring to , and which one presents a danger to water sources...?

All of them Sir.

They all pose a threat, or a potential accident and contamination of a water source, by train , underground or by sea and air .

Not just one , the problem really is the industry itself.
Regardless if it's being drilled by the Americans , the Canadians , the Brits or the Chinese...

We as humans now have the technology and the know how to use Nature's power to enable us to live in relative comfort without the need to continue exploitative pursuits at the expense of the poor and of natural resources.

If the amount of money invested in fossil fuels were to be invested in new technology , sustainable development and renewable energy and alternative technology , I think we would stand a good chance of reversing the recent trends and perhaps avert the changes being witnessed right now in the Arctic , as some of the guys on here , (the latest Arctic trip of BCUK members) witnessed .
...
The writing has been on the wall for way too long , it's no longer a "if" but a "when" , unfortunately...

Consequences? Not sure if they will be evident in my lifetime , or if they are already evident ...but our children and grandchildren will inherit the problems we've created here now...And that is a certain.

Which brings me to a proverb of ancient Native American wisdom.

55e3295a97c6c5649ce732a68686795d.jpg
 
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boatman

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Feb 20, 2007
2,444
4
75
Cornwall
I am offended, the Cornish have been ignored in the talk of "nations". Being an incomer from Wiltshire and ultimately from London I can say with authority that anyone who thinks the English are all the same is an idiot. As we would sing in our Wiltshire village.

Be Oi Berkshire?
Be Oi b-----y
Oi cums up from Sarum
Where me and the Missus has sixteen kids
And Oi knows how to rear'um. (Note: there is a more scurrilous version of that line)

If we were feeling particularly "musical" that song would then morph into the well-known ditty
The Vly be on the Turmit

or into

The Farmer's Boy
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
36,883
2,762
S. Lanarkshire
:puppy_dog sorry :eek:

I have heard that (or it's very close copy) sung before :D It took three rounds through before I could understand the accent :D

M
 

Joonsy

Native
Jul 24, 2008
1,483
0
UK
Ow Bist ? well i am a white person born in the black-country that has lived in various parts of the green countryside. I have retained my black-country accent though so speak double dutch to most people who can't understand a word we say. Proud of our roots, traditions, and language, we are often considered the lowest form of life by outsiders the second they hear our voice, often insulted by being called a brummie (they are a seperate breed haha) by outsiders or a yam yam by brummies.

So theyer yo ar afta ma tay om gooin owt up the fields to check on osses an get sum oss muck, worra loff av a bostin day, terra a bit. :lmao:
 

Adze

Native
Oct 9, 2009
1,874
0
Cumbria
www.adamhughes.net
I am offended, the Cornish have been ignored in the talk of "nations". Being an incomer

So you're offended on behalf of someone else? Did you ask their permission to be offended for them? " I dunno, bloomin' trendies getting offended for us, nicking all our angst and making it their own." :D

The Aussie comic Steve Hughes (youtube has a fair amount of his stuff - family language warning though, not for kids or the overly sensitive) does a pretty good line on being offended, well worth a watch if you're not Mary Whitehouse.
 
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boatman

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Feb 20, 2007
2,444
4
75
Cornwall
I merely followed the current mode of assuming offence on the part of other people, personally couldn't care less who puts the cream on their scones before the jam.
 

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