Rich Hall and American Indians

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santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
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santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,867
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Florida
God only coming onto the currency and the Oath in the fifties? Shows evolving in what direction?


I found this article in The American Minute explaining the words "So help me God" in most common oaths. It appears it goes back to at least 1791:



"Why has the tradition in America been for oaths to end with “So help me God”? The military’s oath of enlistment ended with “So help me God.” The commissioned officers’ oath ended with “So help me God.” President’s oath of office ended with “So help me God.” Congressmen and Senators’ oath ended with “So help me God.” Witnesses in Court swore to tell the truth, “So help me God.” Even Lincoln proposed an oath to be a United States citizen which ended with “So help me God.”


On Dec. 8, 1863, Lincoln announced his plan to accept back into the Union those who had been in the Confederacy with a proposed oath: “Whereas it is now desired by some persons heretofore engaged in said rebellion to resume their allegiance to the United States. … Therefore, I, Abraham Lincoln, president of the United States, do proclaim, declare, and make known to all persons who have, directly or by implication, participated in the existing rebellion … that a full pardon is hereby granted to them … with restoration of all rights of property … upon the condition that every such person shall take and subscribe an oath … to wit:
“I, ______, do solemnly swear, in the presence of Almighty God, that I will henceforth faithfully support, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States and the Union of the States thereunder, and that I will in like manner abide by and faithfully support all acts of Congress passed during the existing rebellion with reference to slaves … and that I will in like manner abide by and faithfully support all proclamations of the president made during the existing rebellion having reference to slaves… So help me God.”
A similar situation was faced by Justice Samuel Chase, who was the chief justice of Maryland’s Supreme Court in 1791, and then appointed by George Washington as a justice on the U.S. Supreme Court, 1796-1811.
In 1799, a dispute arose over whether an Irish immigrant named Thomas M’Creery had in fact become a naturalized U.S. citizen and thereby able to leave an estate to a relative in Ireland. The court decided in M’Creery’s favor based on a certificate executed before Justice Samuel Chase, which stated: “I, Samuel Chase, Chief Judge of the State of Maryland, do hereby certify all whom it may concern, that … personally appeared before me Thomas M’Creery, and did repeat and subscribe a declaration of his belief in the Christian Religion, and take the oath required by the Act of Assembly of this state, entitled, An Act for Naturalization.”
An oath was meant to call a Higher Power to hold one accountable to perform what they promised.
Another perspective on taking an oath was mentioned by Bill Clinton at the National Prayer Breakfast, Feb. 4, 1993: “Just two weeks and a day ago, I took the oath of office as president. You know the last four words, for those who choose to say it in this way, are ‘so help me God’ … Deep down inside I wanted to say it the way I was thinking it, which was, ‘So, help me, God.'”
Courts of justice thought oaths would lose their effectiveness if the public at large lost their fear of the God of the Bible who gave the commandment “Thou shalt not bear false witness.”
New York Supreme Court Chief Justice Chancellor Kent noted in People v. Ruggles, 1811, that irreverence weakened the effectiveness of oaths: “Christianity was parcel of the law, and to cast contumelious reproaches upon it, tended to weaken the foundation of moral obligation, and the efficacy of oaths.”
George Washington warned of this in his farewell address, 1796: “Let it simply be asked where is the security for prosperity, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in the Courts of Justice?”
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In August of 1831, Alexis de Tocqueville observed a court case: “While I was in America, a witness, who happened to be called at the assizes of the county of Chester (state of New York), declared that he did not believe in the existence of God or in the immortality of the soul. The judge refused to admit his evidence, on the ground that the witness had destroyed beforehand all confidence of the court in what he was about to say. The newspapers related the fact without any further comment. The New York Spectator of August 23d, 1831, relates the fact in the following terms:
“‘The court of common pleas of Chester county (New York), a few days since rejected a witness who declared his disbelief in the existence of God. The presiding judge remarked, that he had not before been aware that there was a man living who did not believe in the existence of God; that this belief constituted the sanction of all testimony in a court of justice: and that he knew of no case in a Christian country, where a witness had been permitted to testify without such belief.'”
Oaths to hold office had similar acknowledgments. The Constitution of Mississippi, 1817, stated: “No person who denies the being of God or a future state of rewards and punishments shall hold any office in the civil department of the State.”
The Constitution of Tennessee, 1870, article IX, Section 2, stated: “No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this State.”
The Constitution of Maryland, 1851, required office holders make: “A declaration of belief in the Christian religion; and if the party shall profess to be a Jew the declaration shall be of his belief in a future state of rewards and punishments.”
In 1864, the Constitution of Maryland, required office holders to make: “A declaration of belief in the Christian religion, or of the existence of God, and in a future state of rewards and punishments.”






Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2015/12/why-do-american-oaths-end-with-so-help-me-god/#ktC7J5tUrDhrBWzy.99"
 

Old Bones

Settler
Oct 14, 2009
745
69
East Anglia
2) "In God We Trust" first appeared on currency in 1864.

But it only appeared on paper currency in 1957, and the reason for that was a way to demonstrate a difference from the USSR's state atheism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_We_Trust . Even on the coinage, the motto had come and gone for a while, until 1938. Teddy Roosevelt even thought the use of Gods name on money was sacrilegious.

As for the Pledge of Allegiance, the adding of 'Under God' occurred in 1954, following a campaign, with perhaps the underlying reason being not dissimilar to the impetus behind the motto being added to the paper currency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance

The religious right has sought prayer in schools for a very long time, etc, and numerous court cases have been fought to avoid that. Even then, there are ways to skirt around the rules. As for 'under God' on currency, I suspect its a bit like The Red Mass, which is the subject of a 4th season story in The West Wing. When Charlie Young points out that the idea of a religious service for the Supreme Court isn't really in the spirit of 'separation of church and state', Bartlet 'sometimes you have to just say 'what the hell''. Since there are a lot bigger issues around, thats as good an answer as any.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,867
1,082
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Florida
But it only appeared on paper currency in 1957, and the reason for that was a way to demonstrate a difference from the USSR's state atheism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_We_Trust . Even on the coinage, the motto had come and gone for a while, until 1938. Teddy Roosevelt even thought the use of Gods name on money was sacrilegious.

As for the Pledge of Allegiance, the adding of 'Under God' occurred in 1954, following a campaign, with perhaps the underlying reason being not dissimilar to the impetus behind the motto being added to the paper currency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance.....

Yes, not on paper currency until the 1950s and yes, it came and went on coinage prior to that. Most articles I've read has it continuously on some coin or another almost from the beginning. It just switched from one coin to another. And yes to the reason it was added to paper currency.

Agreed with the Pledge of Allegiance regarding both the time and the reason. My earlier answer was to Boatman's post regarding oaths rather than the Pledge. But in any case the 1950s (regarding paper currency and the Pledge) is even farther back in ancient history than Boatman's earlier reference to court cases in the 1960s; and the words "So help me God" ending an oath haven't been mandatory for most of my life, nor have the words "under God" in the Pledge. Indeed, students aren't even required to stand or recite the Pledge anymore.
 
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santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,867
1,082
65
Florida
....The religious right has sought prayer in schools for a very long time, etc, and numerous court cases have been fought to avoid that. Even then, there are ways to skirt around the rules.....

Yes we have fought for prayers to be led in public schools again, completely unsuccessfully. The only "skirting" is the right of students themselves or of the private schools (religious schools are private schools)
 

boatman

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Feb 20, 2007
2,444
4
75
Cornwall
Us Londoners use an archaic swear word "swelp me" a shortened version of so help me god. Totally secular in usage. The pledge of allegiance is one of the oddest things I find of the States. An honest and honourabl person can only make such a pledge once, like a promise, once. If your word is no good then endless repetition is meaningless.
 
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santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,867
1,082
65
Florida
Us Londoners use an archaic swear word "sweep me" a shortened version of so help me god. Totally secular in usage. The pledge of allegiance is one of the oddest things I find of the States. An honest and honourabl person can only make such a pledge once, like a promise, once. If your word is no good then endless repetition is meaningless.

It's used here to begin a school day or to begin official meetings . I understand your point about only saying it once. I suppose it depends on the point of view though. If it were indeed an oath, you'd think it should be binding forever. On the other hand that would be also true of an oath to tell the truth before testifying in court (do you not have to take the same oath again if you're called to testify in a new case?) By reciting it together at the beginning of a new day or a new meeting we remind ourselves of, and reaffirm, our duty.
 

Laurentius

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Aug 13, 2009
2,070
337
Knowhere
Ow Bist ? well i am a white person born in the black-country that has lived in various parts of the green countryside. I have retained my black-country accent though so speak double dutch to most people who can't understand a word we say. Proud of our roots, traditions, and language, we are often considered the lowest form of life by outsiders the second they hear our voice, often insulted by being called a brummie (they are a seperate breed haha) by outsiders or a yam yam by brummies.

So theyer yo ar afta ma tay om gooin owt up the fields to check on osses an get sum oss muck, worra loff av a bostin day, terra a bit. :lmao:

I can almost understand that. If I am not mistaken you have a shop called Toys Am We up there somewhere.
 

Joonsy

Native
Jul 24, 2008
1,483
0
UK
I can almost understand that. If I am not mistaken you have a shop called Toys Am We up there somewhere.

haha :) arr bur i day goo in it meself, it's by the cut, nippin off now for me tae, faggots and paes, keep owt the oss road :)

images
 

Fadcode

Full Member
Feb 13, 2016
2,748
773
Cornwall
Us Londoners use an archaic swear word "sweep me" a shortened version of so help me god. Totally secular in usage. The pledge of allegiance is one of the oddest things I find of the States. An honest and honourabl person can only make such a pledge once, like a promise, once. If your word is no good then endless repetition is meaningless.

Surely an Oath has to be witnessed to be effective, therefore it would have to be repeated depending on in who's presence you are swearing it, I mean if you say good morning to a neighbour on a Monday, does this mean you don't have to say good morning to him ever again.
 

boatman

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Feb 20, 2007
2,444
4
75
Cornwall
New case in a court each time but if a witness is recalled they simply reminded that they are still under oath.
 

Robson Valley

Full Member
Nov 24, 2014
9,468
2,212
McBride, BC
Happy Smallpox. You can't ignore it, no matter how much religion you want to butter your money with.

At some point, you have to admit that the Cultural Genocide in Canada actually failed.
The Canadian Government (by their own admission = fact) admits that they could not kill off the PacNW aboriginals by disease and starvation.
That suggests to me that the possibly 10,000 years in Beringia and 30,000 years in the Americas made them genetically superior to most genetic strains of modern humans.

The Simpsons and paper money? Where are the real people?
Or has this discussion ignored the indigenous people of North America one more time?

Make your own pizza. These people are my friends.
 

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