'Pay As You Go' road tax. - Petition

[Zodiak]

I just nicked this from another forum, but I don't think they will mind

"Sarah Kennedy was talking about this proposed car tax scheme on Radio 2.

Apparently there is only one month left to register you objection to the 'Pay As You Go' road tax.

The petition is on the 10 Downing St website but they didn't tell anybody about it. Therefore at the time of Sarah's comments only 250,000 people had signed it and 750,000 signatures are required for the government to at least take any notice.

Once you've given your details (you don't have to give your full address, just house number and postcode will do), they will send you an email with a link in it. Once you click on that link, you'll have signed the petition.

The government's proposal to introduce road pricing will mean you having to purchase a tracking device for your car and paying a monthly bill to use it. The tracking device will cost about £200 and in a recent study by the BBC, the lowest monthly bill was £28 for a rural florist and £194 for a delivery driver. A non working mother who used the car to take the kids to school paid £86 in one month.

On top of this massive increase in tax, you will be tracked.

Somebody will know where you are at all times. They will also know how fast you have been going, so even if you accidentally creep over a speed limit in time you can probably expect a Notice of Intended Prosecution with your monthly bill.

If you are concerned about this Orwellian plan and want to stop the constant bashing of the car driver, please sign the petition on No 10's new website (link below) and pass this on to as many people as possible.

Sign up if you value your freedom and democratic rights -

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/traveltax "

Like the original poster, I agree that we have to do something, but it should be fair and across the board. We should not have laws that penalise the poor and charge the rich.

It all seems very wrong to me, and if you agree please excercise your democratic right and vote too.

 

[JonnyP]

I vote we stop the car tax, let the roads go to rack and ruin and we all get 4x4's, no more speeding then.......

 

[dommyracer]

The petition is on the 10 Downing St website but they didn't tell anybody about it.

Who is 'they'?

This isn't a petition started by No. 10.

Anyone can start a petition on that website, so its up to the person that creates it to advertise it, not the Govt.

 

[Rebel]

We did have this thread before but it got locked. Some of us started getting a bit polictical.

 

[Zodiak]

We did have this thread before but it got locked. Some of us started getting a bit polictical.

Politics effects everything that we do, including Bushcraft and everybody has the right to tell the government what they think and how they want the country to be run. So long as it doesn't degrade into name calling or party politics then a healthy discussion should be encouraged so we can all listen to and chose to think about other peoples fundamental points of view.

Many people here have vehicles to support their interests and have just as much right as the next man to be heard.

I am concerned that we could end up with another form of taxation, but more so that we could lose our freedom to choose or be private.

I look on a trip to the woods as being a chance to come off the radar, there are no CCTV cameras, every conversation is not "recorded for quality and training purposes" and I am not constantly faced by people who want something to make them selves financialy richer.

There is a simplicity about just sitting down in front a fire which I love, it keeps us in touch with a lifestyle which is not about "power" or authority, and in this light the thought of having a box in my car to keep tabs on me is utterly abhorant

 

[Mikey P]

Sorry. Nothin personal but this thread is irrelevant to bushcraft and has no place on this site.

 

[Zodiak]

Sorry. Nothin personal but this thread is irrelevant to bushcraft and has no place on this site.

Again nothing personal, but I have to disagree, there are many people on this site who regard their vehicles as an essential part of their bushcraft kit, as shown by some with the avatars they choose.

If this law comes to pass then many people, possibly including me, wil not be able to afford a car and my bushcraftin/outdoors time will be severly restricted to one small patch of woods that I can walk to in 15 minutes. I am lucky there are many who can only get to suitable areas by car.

How many people drove to the Summer Moot? Some drove well over a hundred miles, I hate to think how much that would have cost them under this scheme.

How will we get canoes to suitable water without a vehicle? Yes we could hire, but the areas where they are available are probably not the ones we would chose to paddle, and how about getting our gear there?

I agree road tax is not hardcore bushcraft and something needs to be done about pollution quickly but the impact of this particular proposal could cause significant problems for many people here and I just wanted everybody to have the chance to have their voices heard in the debate.

Again nothing personal but to me Bushcraft is about freedom of choices and not being restricted.

 

[Silverback]

Big Up to you Zodiak - I posted exactly the same topic here and got pretty much the same response but I did and do feel it has an impact. I self moderated and took the post down as far as I could as I didn't want to rock the boat and it has now been moved somewhere in the 'Other Chatter' section. I for one think it is an important issue and has a large impact on Bushcraft unless you are one of the minority that have your sights in close proximity or do all your Bushcrafting from the armchair

 

[Mikey P]

I could quite easily put a post up saying:

'Hey, the government intends to store information about me on my passport and charge me more for buying one. I don't want to pay this and so I can't now travel abroad and do bushcraft in foreign countries. I urge you to start/join a petition in order to stop this'

or

'The government has increased interest rates and now I can't afford to buy another knife to add to the fifteen I already have. This is against my fundamental human rights and prevents me from practicing bushcraft the way I want to. Therefore, Chris Moyles off Radio 1 has started a petition against paying any interest whatsoever. Please exercise your democratic right and join the petition against paying interest on your mortgage. Oh yeah - I'd better mention freedom, human rights, free speech, big brother, house prices, stealth tax, the cost of petrol, yobs, hard-working nurses, and the declining state of the British music industry. Thx.'

Sorry - I'm not being spiteful towards any individual here but I get this sort of stuff all the time in spam emails, emails from 'well-meaning friends', letters circulated at work, and my dad.

We can spin anything to have a 'bushcraft' slant and so self moderation is the way forward, as originally practiced by 'Silverback'. A sensible decision, I thought.

I'm not saying that your argument has no merit (although one could easily argue that it is not balanced and presents only one point of view - what about the other side?); it's just that I feel that this is not the place for it. Maybe even this post should be in the 'Kit Chatter - Transport' forum, where the readership is possibly more focused on road vehicles?

I worry that, instead of being the talking shop for learning and discussing bushcraft that it started out to be, the site is becoming increasingly taken over by fringe issues. And I regard this topic as a fringe issue that is not in the spirit of the site and is more in line with yet another Daily Mail/Express scare campaign.

Surely there are more worthy and altruistic causes for petitions?

However, I'm not a moderator. I've made my point, just as you have. And so now I'll get my coat and leave it at that... :tapedshut

 

[garbo]

this is scary, not the car tax change idea, but that the whole thing is a good smokscreen while another more subtle change in legislation is introduced unnoticed, a tactic that has served well in the past, how many times do they drag out the old motorcycle tank pad idea while altering exhaust noise levels or somthing,
please dont watch the clown,while the hand is stealing your wallet

just a thought

Garry.

 

[robadams]

I could quite easily put a post up saying:

'Hey, the government intends to store information about me on my passport and charge me more for buying one. I don't want to pay this and so I can't now travel abroad and do bushcraft in foreign countries. I urge you to start/join a petition in order to stop this'



Sorry to **** on your fire but check out the small print in ''your'' passport.
It's not yours, it belongs to the government that you paid for the pleasure of having a passport.

 

[Biddlesby]

The passport system has to be funded somehow, if not directly by you then indirectly through taxation.

The idea of 'freedom of choice' creates undesirable market failures. Take the environment for example. That is from an economics point of view.

The way I see it, the cost of travel needs to be increased to accomodate for the third-party costs, and that it has come too cheap for us up until now. For me this of course means increased expenditure, but I am willing to consider the wider picture. In addition, whilst I wholeheartedly embrace progressive taxation, I must accept that this reduces incentives that fuel our civilisation.

This issue that people have with their privacy seems to me like they believe some bloke on a computer is going to be tracking them throughout their day personally. We have asked for such measures because of the hype that the media feeds us.

More specifically to road travel: the speed limits are not working against us, they are there to save myopic people's lives who believe that getting to their destination those extra few minutes is worth the exponential risk they thereby take.

Or, everybody could just get bicycles and use public transportation.

 

[Mikey P]

I could quite easily put a post up saying:

'Hey, the government intends to store information about me on my passport and charge me more for buying one. I don't want to pay this and so I can't now travel abroad and do bushcraft in foreign countries. I urge you to start/join a petition in order to stop this'



Sorry to **** on your fire but check out the small print in ''your'' passport.
It's not yours, it belongs to the government that you paid for the pleasure of having a passport.

<Sigh>

That's why I made the point that I was making these things up as 'examples' of the ridiculous sort of thing I get through emails, spam, etc.

 

[Bushcraft4life]

Just in case no one knew already
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topsto...objectid=18609629&siteid=89520-name_page.html

 

[locum76]

wouldn't it be nice if people got out of their cars and walked, cycled or public transported their way to work or the woods or the corner shop or wherever.

there'd be less pollution, less noise on the streets and even under a trackable pay as you go tax - folk couldn't be tracked in their cars because they wouldn't be in them.

i won't be signing the petition.

thats my tuppence on the whole shebang.

 

[JDilling]

wouldn't it be nice if people got out of their cars and walked, cycled or public transported their way to work or the woods or the corner shop or wherever.

there'd be less pollution, less noise on the streets and even under a trackable pay as you go tax - folk couldn't be tracked in their cars because they wouldn't be in them.

i won't be signing the petition.

thats my tuppence on the whole shebang.

I know that accross the pond, you guys have much better public transportation systems than we have in the USA. From what I understand, city lay out is also a lot better suited for non vehicle traffic than ours are. However, meeting public transportation schedueles can definetely be difficult. I think on that end, the best improvementy is self improvement- doing what you can to make a diffierence however insignificant it may be.

The government's proposal to introduce road pricing will mean you having to purchase a tracking device for your car and paying a monthly bill to use it. The tracking device will cost about £200 and in a recent study by the BBC, the lowest monthly bill was £28 for a rural florist and £194 for a delivery driver. A non working mother who used the car to take the kids to school paid £86 in one month.

Those fees seem pretty expensive. The unit alone is 50% or more of what the price of a functional used car costs. I can't see a lot of people, especially low wage earners putting out $400 for a tracking device. And assuming the single mom example is a woman driving to work daily, that's $160/ month, about $1300 per year. That's about $2000 (about 1000 quid) the first year.

 

[British Red]

wouldn't it be nice if people got out of their cars and walked, cycled or public transported their way to work or the woods or the corner shop or wherever.

there'd be less pollution, less noise on the streets and even under a trackable pay as you go tax - folk couldn't be tracked in their cars because they wouldn't be in them.

i won't be signing the petition.

thats my tuppence on the whole shebang.

Well, I live in the country. Wayyy in the country. My 25 mile journey to work takes 35 - 40 minutes by car. It takes 4 hours (each way) by public transport. That includes of course the 4 mile walk to the nearest bus stop. 50 miles cycling a day is a bit much even for me. Second homers, existing fuel duty, expensive oil and gas based heating have already driven most country dwellers out, if we all want to live in concrete monstrosities, I'd agree with you. Since all country dwellers have NO choice but to have cars, I don't. Homeworking? Don't make me laugh - I can't get mains sewage or gas. Boroadband? Fat chance!

I went to a shopping centre in a town last weekend. First time in the last 3 years. Last time in the next 10. I'll pay what I have to but I will never live like that - it was like an ant farm <shudder>.

Sorry <rant off> but if we are expected to use public transport, why not actually provide some?

Red (voted and proud of it)

 

[locum76]

absolutely. b-r. i agree that public transport is mince at the minute. if we're going to get out of our cars - they should have to put on more buses.!!!

 

[dave k]

absolutely. b-r. i agree that public transport is mince at the minute. if we're going to get out of our cars - they should have to put on more buses.!!!

I totally agree with this. When I didn't have a car I used to travel from Bournemouth to Birmingham every week by train. By car it takes (9 out of 10 times) about 2.45 hours. The train journey is about 3:30, but it is always late or delayed. I want public transport to work - but when it always takes longer to travel by it and it always costs more it will *not* be a viable option. I thought of taking the wife up to Scotland camping, and we muted traveling by train. It would take over 14 hours, and cost 270UKP return for the both of us. By car it takes about 7 hours, and costs me 80quid in diesel. End of argument.

I think the problem with all these people saying it's a `green tax` or another is that they are incorrect. How much of the money do you think the government will spend on proper `green` projects, that is taken from the green taxes? A congeston problem? - let's tax it. It may not stop the problem (infact it will only probally delay it a couple of years) but it's a great moneyspinner.

 

[Scuba Pete]

I think it depends where you live on how efficient the public transport system is. I live in Glasgow and work in Motherwell. For me public transport is great. I take two trains and bus to get to work. It sounds a lot but two are very short journeys. I get the express train from Glasgow central to Motherwell and it takes 15min, there is no way you could do that in a car. Total journey time is like 40-45 mins, which I would be hard pushed to do in the car. (Traffic etc). Also the cost is far cheaper. I have a zone card and it costs me £74-50 a month, far cheaper than my petrol costs and I can also use it for getting about Glasgow any time of the week etc. I realise that people who live in the county etc don’t have this level of service at all, but for me it works so I use it. I would love to see the costs come down so that more people take advantage of the benefits.

Don't get me wrong I love driving, I miss it a lot. I can't afford a car just now and it severely limits me in a lot of ways. I hardly get to go diving these days. (equipment is really heavy, lol) As for bushcraft I can only go where I can get a train or a bus, it's a real pain. I can't wait until I can get transport again so that I can explore other places.

Back to my reason for posting this, I personally see no problem at all with charging on a per mile basis. Why you ask, well the road tax is for the maintenance of the roads, charge the people that wear them out. If I only use the car on the weekend and drive a few miles, why should I pay as much as someone that drives hundreds of miles a week. I am doing far less damage to the roads and putting out far less pollution.

Obviously I am talking about road tax only, I would not want the system used for any other purpose. I don’t know enough about what the government have planned but I don't believe all the emails. They all suggest big brother is watching, monitoring your speed, spying on you, lol I mean come on. I would not be surprised if big haulage business etc are the ones sending them to scare people, as they will suffer if the changes happen.

I would need more information before I made a choice but I think there is a lot of media hype to wade through.