Oh dear what have I done? (UL camping here I come)

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Erbswurst

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Mar 5, 2018
3,174
1,263
Berlin
There are used army poncho liners on the market, US and Dutch, that might have broken fibres inside. Dutch exist with and without zippers along the edges.

There are bad ones, that are too narrow to serve well as a sleeping bag.

There is a new one made by Carinthia but funnily there is no rain proof poncho in sight yet.

And there is a Defcon 5 poncho liner that fits to the Defcon 5 waterproof poncho. Both items are issued in the Italian army, but you can get them new from the maker. The waterproof poncho is good and very light but a bit short. Nevertheless it's wide enough for adult men, what usually isn't the case if we talk about civil products.
 
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Erbswurst

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Mar 5, 2018
3,174
1,263
Berlin
In a tent I usually put my clothes off.
If sleeping just in the bivvy bag I don't.

I wear a German army field shirt that's fitted out with two chest pockets and flaps over them.

In the right pocket I have a wallet in credit card size. Only cards and bank notes and a few coins.
In the other a very little compass and the also very little and light Petzl e+lite head torch. One even could wear the Suunto M-9 wristband compass.
I have two little house keys and a Victorinox Compact in the right trouser pocket, attached with a cord to the belt, and sleep usually on the left side.
But if I change the side I also can sort my right pocket if needed.

Well, it's more comfortable without that but I got used to it. No problem!

Such little wallets I found made by eagle creek, needs to get replaced once a year, but I prefere that. Lowe Alpine makes a similar one that seems to be better made and my version is beige, not black like the eagle creek wallet.
I would prefere orange though.

Tatonka makes a slightly heavier one that's less good for this purpose.

Low budget I rather would recommend the Lowe Alpine wallet, because I assume that it's a bit more durable, but didn't yet test it so heavily like the eagle creek wallets. These I use 365 days a year and have them always on the person.

You could of course also just make it yourself.
 
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SaraR

Full Member
Mar 25, 2017
856
551
Ceredigion
I can't have anything in my pockets when sleeping. I put it all in a small drybag that I attach to something to keep it safe.

I'm a side sleeper but toss and turn a lot, so I need a setup that lets me move easily and quietly. As long as you get what you need and not just what works for others, you'll be fine.
 

Erbswurst

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Mar 5, 2018
3,174
1,263
Berlin
Well, @fingertrouble , you have to know that she is a woman who digs out more bones and skulls each day than all English farm dogs together. No wonder that she ends up in the morning with the feet on the pillow!

;)

No, seriously, that's exactly what I usually do in the double wall tent for example on tourist camp sites. In the bivvy in the open I keep my essential stuff on the person and the rucksack under the head.
But I sleep nearly everywhere and very far away from home, and very often too, not only in lonely areas where nobody will come along anyway.

I developed a secure inner standard system because it's generally not so secure what I usually do. And I can't think every evening about potential risks if I am already tired.
 
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fingertrouble

Tenderfoot
Sep 6, 2021
65
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London, UK
Well, @fingertrouble , you have to know that she is a woman who digs out more bones and skulls each day than all English farm dogs together. No wonder that she ends up in the morning with the feet on the pillow!

;)

No, seriously, that's exactly what I usually do in the double wall tent for example on tourist camp sites. In the bivvy in the open I keep my essential stuff on the person and the rucksack under the head.
But I sleep nearly everywhere and very far away from home, and very often too, not only in lonely areas where nobody will come along anyway.

I developed a secure inner standard system because it's generally not so secure what I usually do. And I can't think every evening about potential risks if I am already tired.
I actually found by accident my sleeping bag has a hidden pocket - I guess for wallets etc. Ditto my Berghaus old rucksack - found it has a secret pocket where the lower straps/padding is - and found a strange key and a rusty nut in there that had gone through the washing machine!

But I am same, I get rather worried about theft when in a tent (I never leave anything of value in there if I can, but more when I am sleeping). I have done exactly that - if I dont have a pillow I put clothes in the sleeping bag sack, and have put my wallet in there, or at least my trousers on the far end of the tent so they'd have to come over me, and my wallet is always in a zipped pocket.

I am a very light sleeper so good luck to thieves trying to do that (I actually disturbed a burglar who tried to break into my Dad's house while I was asleep upstairs...alone. Luckily they scarpered, but them levering the window open downstairs woke me up - seriously I will wake immediately if I hear the slightest unusual noise, it's sometimes annoying when it's something falling over in the flat or upstairs moving around, but it has it's uses).

I also always put emergency money or a card in a pocket in the rucksack just in case I get mugged/pickpocketed.
 
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fingertrouble

Tenderfoot
Sep 6, 2021
65
43
48
London, UK
There are used army poncho liners on the market, US and Dutch, that might have broken fibres inside. Dutch exist with and without zippers along the edges.

There are bad ones, that are too narrow to serve well as a sleeping bag.

There is a new one made by Carinthia but funnily there is no rain proof poncho in sight yet.

And there is a Defcon 5 poncho liner that fits to the Defcon 5 waterproof poncho. Both items are issued in the Italian army, but you can get them new from the maker. The waterproof poncho is good and very light but a bit short. Nevertheless it's wide enough for adult men, what usually isn't the case if we talk about civil products.
Are the Dutch genuine DPM ponchos and liners any good?



Those seem possible to get for reasonable non-crazy prices - genuine German/Austrian seem rare/expensive and quite often repro....lots of repros out there....
 

Broch

Full Member
Jan 18, 2009
5,363
4,719
Mid Wales
Are the Dutch genuine DPM ponchos and liners any good?



Those seem possible to get for reasonable non-crazy prices - genuine German/Austrian seem rare/expensive and quite often repro....lots of repros out there....

IMO, they are far too small to be taken as a shelter tarp in UK weather (swirling wind and rain), if that is how you plan to use it. As an emergency on a day's hike maybe, but otherwise next to useless.

I haven't used a poncho to sleep in or under since the BA canvas days and you couldn't persuade me to do it now even if they weigh a tenth of the old ones.
 

Erbswurst

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Mar 5, 2018
3,174
1,263
Berlin
The Dutch army poncho is the largest currently in serviceable conditions available real military poncho, 220 x 160 cm.
It weighs between 650 and 750g.

The original plain olive green German army poncho has the dimensions 218 × 158 cm (plus / minus 2 centimetres, depending on age and maker). Weight between 930 and 1050g, also depending on age and maker.
Lighter ones are extremely rare.

The German poncho is rubberised on both sides. The rubber also goes through the nylon fabric itself. It is extremely durable. After approximatly 35 to 40 years of service the tapes on the seams around the hood start to become loose and fall off. But one surely can glew them new or seal the seam in a different way. I didn't yet needed to try that. I never have seen a German poncho that lost its coating in regular use or in the storage.
I left one - after decades in service - for 5 years in the garden to cover something, directly in the weather, and afterwards the coating degraded. It's even a bit fire retardant. Apart from the first olive green insanely heavy US army ponchos the German one is surely the most robust military poncho ever made. It's currently sold between 20 and rather 25 € and easily available.

The Dutch ones reach the surplus market in different conditions. Some are fine, some already have a coating that falls off.

The German army issued a few US poncho liners in US woodland camouflage, but never ordered an own poncho liner.

The Dutch poncho has the grommets in different places. You can't tie the Dutch poncho liner to the German poncho properly if you don't modify it. But that could be easily done, you just need to sew 4 straps onto the liner.

The Dutch liners surely also reach the surplus market in different conditions. Some should be good, some have surely - invisible from outside - a filling with broken fibres. I assume that they use hollow fibre filling, approximately like macaroni. These can break if too old. The liner keeps the same weight but has less loft and looses a part of it's ability to retain warmth.
That's why padded clothing and sleeping bags that are used for hiking and trekking should be bought new and not used.
For boat and car camping it doesn't really matter of course if an old military winter sleeping bag serves only in summer nights in civil use.

I assume that a liner with broken filling also will dry less fast than a new one if it got really whet, because the water surely can enter the hollow fibres.

So, if you get a good one or an old one is a question of luck, and you can't find out what you have.

The Defcon 5 poncho of the Italian army is 200 x 168 cm. The widest but shortest real military poncho. A bit too short for my taste, I am 185 cm tall. But that's my standard poncho nowadays, because it weighs only 350 g !

That's only new available like the Defcon 5 poncho liner.

I own the Defcon 5 poncho, use it in conjunction with Snugpak Special Forces 1 sleeping bag and SF bivvy bag regularly as my shelter but don't own the poncho liner yet. I think about buying it but first need to buy a new large rucksack and figure out if the liner still fits in it in the end.

I am currently developing a new 4 seasons allround equipment for my personal pretty nomadic lifestyle and don't want to buy stuff that doesn't fit into my current equipment. I have to try out if the poncho liner fits additional or not.

But I am still unsure which 120 litres rucksack I will buy. Probably a pretty expensive one, so I need to think about it very well. There are a few options to consider.



The Italian army poncho costs in Germany new 37 €, the liner 47 €.

In your situation I would rather combine your two sleeping bags. I mainly think about the poncho liner for Mediterranean summer conditions.
There is a reason why such a thing isn't issued in European NATO armies apart from Italy. I am a bit unsure why the Dutch issue such a summer sleeping bag thingy.

We have long threads about the poncho liner question somewhere in this forum.
 
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Erbswurst

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Mar 5, 2018
3,174
1,263
Berlin
The point is:
If you use a tent and hike in Britain in areas along the coast line without many trees, a rainsuit is surely the more sensible option for you.
I love ponchos, but don't recommend it in your case.

The main secret of a light pack is the short packing list. Defcon 5 poncho and poncho liner weigh approximately as much as your summer sleeping bag.

You surely will carry a rainsuit anyway.
 

fingertrouble

Tenderfoot
Sep 6, 2021
65
43
48
London, UK
The point is:
If you use a tent and hike in Britain in areas along the coast line without many trees, a rainsuit is surely the more sensible option for you.
I love ponchos, but don't recommend it in your case.

The main secret of a light pack is the short packing list. Defcon 5 poncho and poncho liner weigh approximately as much as your summer sleeping bag.

You surely will carry a rainsuit anyway.
Yes I always take a waterproof jacket. I haven't taken waterproof trousers since as an ex-sailor (I sailed a lot as a kid and teen with my Dad) I always found those actually ended up making you wetter with sweat unless you indeed were being battered by seawater! They aren't breathable - not the old ones anyway, I'm sure you can get expensive Goretex ones now.
 

Erbswurst

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Mar 5, 2018
3,174
1,263
Berlin
And you can get cheap used Goretex trousers too. In MTP from the British army and in Flecktarn from the German army for example.

They throw it behind you every corner:



As the Brits have no hood at the rain jacket I would rather take the German goretex suit, unless you regularly wear a classical British WW1 steel helmet.
 

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