Oh dear what have I done? (UL camping here I come)

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fingertrouble

Tenderfoot
Sep 6, 2021
64
43
48
London, UK
Yes - like this video on the Pro (would suit me better maybe as a taller guy, I'm around 180-185cm but it's more expensive with tax so I will live with that issue) - they say most of the 3F Lanshan 1 tents were seam sealed in the factory. I'll check with the seller.

EDIT: I think I got the Lanshan 1 Plus 2021, which is bigger than his older version. I certainly had no issues lying in it as someone 6ft 1. We will see when I get the mat...

 
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fingertrouble

Tenderfoot
Sep 6, 2021
64
43
48
London, UK
Looks like condensation is an issue with the Pro? I personally prefer double tents tbh, that's what my old Highlander Jura is. (he calls it the XL in the video but graphics say it's the 1 Plus - the same I've got)

I also concur on the modular nature, I prefer that idea - like if it's hot summer, maybe don't take the inner and just the fly and cope with the crawlies ;-)
 
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fingertrouble

Tenderfoot
Sep 6, 2021
64
43
48
London, UK
Bad news on the other orders though. Looks like the seller has done a runner, fake shipping number, empty store, 25% feedback. Talking to support about getting my money back - which I will eventually - but it's the wait for any other orders really - I do need the mat. Grr. They have allowed me to raise a dispute in 24 hours, as a regular customer. So I need to buy elsewhere :-/

Damn that means cancelling or delaying the trip.
 
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Erbswurst

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Mar 5, 2018
3,120
1,226
Berlin
Air mats are complicated to produce.
The risk to throw money out of the window is very high if you buy a cheap mat without very convincing recommendations.

In your financial situation I would buy nothing else than a Therm -A- Rest model because they have a well proven client service. They really change failing products without making problems.

Look it up yourself for Britain. I think it's 25 years warranty here and life time in the USA.

I recommend to save the money elsewhere, but not at the mat.

If you have to throw away a cheap mat every year, you reach the price of a Therm -A- Rest pretty soon!

One can buy a basic Therm -A- Rest model and put a used army roll mat, closed cell foam, underneath in winter conditions. Or if you find it a used German army folding mat, that is light and very compact packing.

I always put the German army mat under my air mat in order to protect it.

The German army mat is my ground sheet in most cases. Onto it I put the bivvy bag or directly sleeping bag and sometimes the air mat, which I don't use always.

I don't know how exactly is the ground in your area. If it's soft you can tread with a robust mountain boot a hole for the hip into it as a side sleeper. That's how they did it before they created the air mats.
Once you have learned how that has do be done exactly it's very comfortable.

Of course that can be done under a too thin airmat too.

The German army mat exists original only as a used article, is getting rare and costs in Germany between 20 € used and 30 € new old stock if you find it, what's unlikely.


Maker was Molan in Bremen later called Trecolan. It must be written on the label that's moulded into a corner of the mat.

Avoid the cheap new sold copy!

Multimat makes a quality copy of this mat because the German original is out of production and British parachutists wanted it. Multimat is the maker of the British army roll mat too. You can look up the specifications there, before you get it used somewhere else.




Have a look through all the endicotts offers! Would I live in Britain I surely would buy most of my equipment there.

They are well assorted, the prices are low, the stuff is surely always good.

I bought most of my equipment in similar shops
 
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fingertrouble

Tenderfoot
Sep 6, 2021
64
43
48
London, UK
Air mats are complicated to produce.
The risk to throw money out of the window is very high if you buy a cheap mat without very convincing recommendations.

In your financial situation I would buy nothing else than a Therm -A- Rest model because they have a well proven client service. They really change failing products without making problems.

Look it up yourself for Britain. I think it's 25 years warranty here and life time in the USA.

I recommend to save the money elsewhere, but not at the mat.
Does that include second hand ones? I see someone here is selling a Prolite.
 

fingertrouble

Tenderfoot
Sep 6, 2021
64
43
48
London, UK
About to buy a Thermarest Trail Pro SMU Aura...I found a sale from a UK company...is that a good one? I wanted four season, and that goes down to R4.4, close enough I guess.

And I suppose I could add a Robens Sleeping Mat for extra insulation if needed?
 

Erbswurst

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Mar 5, 2018
3,120
1,226
Berlin
I nearly don't use such air mats for insulation against the cold. I mainly use non insulated lightweight airmats for comfort reasons on extremely hard ground in south France during the summer on touristic camping grounds, because that's part of the way how I usually earn my money as a concert tour posterer.

I can give you general informations about
what I did read in forums (and I did read a lot in three languages) but I haven't much own experience in this case. I used and usually use other options.

Regarding warranty I recommend to contact Therm-A-Rest in Ireland. That's the maker of the in Europe sold mats.

R value 4,4 is approximately -11°C.
It's nearly sure that you can put your other mat underneath if it's a usual roll mat. You can approximately simply add the R-values. Problems you could get with slippery surfaces, the lighter the airmats the more slippery they tend to be. On a closed cell foam roll mat that's usually not the problem.

One needs to think realistically about how often one will go for camping below -10°C. A warm mat usually is a heavy and bulky mat.

You could also get something that serves well around the freezing point and put a roll mat underneath in the rare cases that you go for winter camping. Some people do that regularly. I usually don't do that although I own the best available winter camping equipment. I go for camping in the summer and work at the writing desk during the winter, as most people do.

My summer hiking equipment weighs around 7 kg, my winter hiking equipment around 20 kg, by the way, although the summer stuff is part of the winter stuff.
(But I probably count with harder winter conditions than most Brits.)
 
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SaraR

Full Member
Mar 25, 2017
809
502
Ceredigion
About to buy a Thermarest Trail Pro SMU Aura...I found a sale from a UK company...is that a good one? I wanted four season, and that goes down to R4.4, close enough I guess.

And I suppose I could add a Robens Sleeping Mat for extra insulation if needed?
Don't know about that mat specifically, but the R value is more than sufficient. I'm a cold sleeper and have never had an issue with my R4.8 mat.

With my older, thin inflated Thermarest mats and my new shiny lightweight mat (the make and model escapes me), I use a thin cell foam mat underneath - both for protecting the mat and (with the old mats) for added comfort. If you can afford the extra bulk, it does noticeable add to the comfort (thermal and "mechanical") and you can use the mat to rest on during breaks etc. so no just for sleeping. At the moment, I am using a really thin foam mat with foil backing from Tesco, as it is less bulky to carry and is so thin you can easily fold it in half for sitting on.
 

Erbswurst

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Mar 5, 2018
3,120
1,226
Berlin
The German army folding mat serves very well as a sit pad too. Folded it has the right size and is thick enough to sit comfortably the whole day on a ice block.
 

Tiley

Full Member
Oct 19, 2006
2,173
243
57
Gloucestershire
The German army folding mat serves very well as a sit pad too. Folded it has the right size and is thick enough to sit comfortably the whole day on a ice block.

Although I'm not hard/mad enough to try the sitting on an ice block trick, I can say that the German army folding mats are great, offering versatility and comfort across a range of situations.

I always use a combination of either the German army mat or the Savotta mat with a Robens inflatable one on top of it and have always been both comfortable and warm. Yes, the combo takes up a little more room but sleep is very important when you're living outdoors... it also enhances my beauty...!
 

fingertrouble

Tenderfoot
Sep 6, 2021
64
43
48
London, UK
I nearly don't use such air mats for insulation against the cold. I mainly use non insulated lightweight airmats for comfort reasons on extremely hard ground in south France during the summer on touristic camping grounds, because that's part of the way how I usually earn my money as a concert tour posterer.

I can give you general informations about
what I did read in forums (and I did read a lot in three languages) but I haven't much own experience in this case. I used and usually use other options.

Regarding warranty I recommend to contact Therm-A-Rest in Ireland. That's the maker of the in Europe sold mats.

R value 4,4 is approximately -11°C.
It's nearly sure that you can put your other mat underneath if it's a usual roll mat. You can approximately simply add the R-values. Problems you could get with slippery surfaces, the lighter the airmats the more slippery they tend to be. On a closed cell foam roll mat that's usually not the problem.

One needs to think realistically about how often one will go for camping below -10°C. A warm mat usually is a heavy and bulky mat.

You could also get something that serves well around the freezing point and put a roll mat underneath in the rare cases that you go for winter camping. Some people do that regularly. I usually don't do that although I own the best available winter camping equipment. I go for camping in the summer and work at the writing desk during the winter, as most people do.

My summer hiking equipment weighs around 7 kg, my winter hiking equipment around 20 kg, by the way, although the summer stuff is part of the winter stuff.
(But I probably count with harder winter conditions than most Brits.)
I probably won't go winter hiking that much - and indeed my current sleeping bag is 3 season (I also have a 2 season but that's fairly useless in all but really hot summer, that was my first many years ago and I learned the hard way that even during summer, it can get really cold near the ground here). but it's something I want to be able to do if needed; and upgrade the sleeping bag later. Planning to do early spring and late autumn hikes where the temps might drop, even though in the UK -10 is unlikely, it's more 'safe than sorry' and to not have to worry if the ground temp gets below freezing.

Regards temperatures - as I said I found that camping at summer festivals, even if it was bright sunshine during the day near the ground was really cold at night, near freezing. That was Isle of Wight! But it seemed the no cloud cover meant it got very cold. Hence why wanting a warmer mat just in case the days are fairly warm but it goes very cold close to the ground. If I remember the ground temp is usually at least a few degrees less than the ambient temperature. Maybe more so in a tent shading the ground from the sun/airflow?
 
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Erbswurst

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Mar 5, 2018
3,120
1,226
Berlin
The coldest instant at the ground is usually exactly sunrise.
The temperatures fall during the night and what was warmed up by the sun gets colder and colder. Sooner or later it reaches the dew point and all gets whet.
With sunrise you get now additional the evaporation chill.

But afterwards the sun heats up all and everything.


Most NATO armies, if not all, issue nowadays two sleeping bags to the soldiers, that fit into each other.

That is usually the Carinthia Tropen summer sleeping bag that fits into the Defence 4 three seasons sleeping bag. And both together replace a winter sleeping bag. Brits and Dutch for example issue a copy of that system, the US army has an own similar system, but that isn't the point here.
Snugpak created a different system where the winter sleeping bag goes into the summer sleeping bag, the Special Forces System, that's also issued in several NATO armies.

It doesn't matter which sleeping bag fits into which. Both systems work very well.

Around it can go a bivvy bag and inside can also go a polycotton liner that rather replaces the bed sheets at home, but also adds a bit more warmth because it closes in air and separates it.
A polyester fleece liner or simply a blanket would work inside too. But I don't like loose liners and prefere to wear additional clothing in the sleeping bag. It doesn't need to be expensive merino wool. Solognac offers warm polyester fleece long underwear. It's constructed to wear it under the hunting clothing but surely serves as pyjamas too.
Lightweight packing as well as low budget lifestyle mean to buy multi use items. So this underwear is surely worth a thought. People who get cold feet wear a bit too large woolen socks over the first pair during the night, that means two fresh pairs as night equipment.

I rather wear the clothing of the day in the sleeping bag because that's lighter.

I recommend to try out if your existing sleeping bags fit into each other. You probably will not have accidentally the perfect fit like the military sleep systems that are exactly constructed like this. Nevertheless it's quite possible that you can use your both existing sleeping bags like that.

Roughly said you can weigh your both sleeping bags and assume that the comfort temperature rating of both together is approximately around the comfort temperature of a single cheaper winter sleeping bag that has the same weight.
The real temperature limit you simply have to try out, for example on the own balcony, or somewhere else where you can easily stop the experiment and go home into your bed if you reached the limit.

I think you rather should use your existing equipment if possible and save up your money in order to get the most convincing items step by step. As I wrote above, the best of the best often isn't the most expensive. A lot of the best equipment was mass produced and often issued in NATO armies, that's why one can get it used and cheap.

But boots, sleeping bags and padded clothing one should buy new.
 
Last edited:

SaraR

Full Member
Mar 25, 2017
809
502
Ceredigion
I use my old and worn synthetic summer sleeping bag as a blanket over my 3-season bag if I want a bit of extra warmth. It packs down to nothing and is easier than using a liner when sleeping in a tent. It protects against drafts and stays in place if you put the footboxes over eachother.
 

fingertrouble

Tenderfoot
Sep 6, 2021
64
43
48
London, UK
The coldest instant at the ground is usually exactly sunrise.
The temperatures fall during the night and what was warmed up by the sun gets colder and colder. Sooner or later it reaches the dew point and all gets whet.
With sunrise you get now additional the evaporation chill.

But afterwards the sun heats up all and everything.


Most NATO armies, if not all, issue nowadays two sleeping bags to the soldiers, that fit into each other.

That is usually the Carinthia Tropen summer sleeping bag that fits into the Defence 4 three seasons sleeping bag. And both together replace a winter sleeping bag. Brits and Dutch for example issue a copy of that system, the US army has an own similar system, but that isn't the point here.
Snugpak created a different system where the winter sleeping bag goes into the summer sleeping bag, the Special Forces System, that's also issued in several NATO armies.

It doesn't matter which sleeping bag fits into which. Both systems work very well.

Around it can go a bivvy bag and inside can also go a polycotton liner that rather replaces the bed sheets at home, but also adds a bit more warmth because it closes in air and separates it.
A polyester fleece liner or simply a blanket would work inside too. But I don't like loose liners and prefere to wear additional clothing in the sleeping bag. It doesn't need to be expensive merino wool. Solognac offers warm polyester fleece long underwear. It's constructed to wear it under the hunting clothing but surely serves as pyjamas too.
Lightweight packing as well as low budget lifestyle mean to buy multi use items. So this underwear is surely worth a thought. People who get cold feet wear a bit too large woolen socks over the first pair during the night, that means two fresh pairs as night equipment.

I rather wear the clothing of the day in the sleeping bag because that's lighter.

I recommend to try out if your existing sleeping bags fit into each other. You probably will not have accidentally the perfect fit like the military sleep systems that are exactly constructed like this. Nevertheless it's quite possible that you can use your both existing sleeping bags like that.

Roughly said you can weigh your both sleeping bags and assume that the comfort temperature rating of both together is approximately around the comfort temperature of a single cheaper winter sleeping bag that has the same weight.
The real temperature limit you simply have to try out, for example on the own balcony, or somewhere else where you can easily stop the experiment and go home into your bed if you reached the limit.

I think you rather should use your existing equipment if possible and save up your money in order to get the most convincing items step by step. As I wrote above, the best of the best often isn't the most expensive. A lot of the best equipment was mass produced and often issued in NATO armies, that's why one can get it used and cheap.

But boots, sleeping bags and padded clothing one should buy new.
Thanks that's a great idea....yes I wasn't planning to go for a new sleeping bag, too much cost at once! But never thought of combining them, I think the summer one is smaller so it will fit.
 
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Erbswurst

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Mar 5, 2018
3,120
1,226
Berlin
There are very often such alternative solutions. One can replace a lot of money with skills and knowledge.

One can fold a sleeping bag out of a large blanket for example, or wrap a smaller one in the same way around the legs and sleep in a coat. Or whatever.

In this forum we rather tend to discuss modern standard equipment. But all together we know all and everything regarding outdoor life.

Most of us surely could make a well working complete equipment in the woods. And how to make equipment from Garbage is also well known.

That's not everybody's lifestyle, but possible of course.
 

Van-Wild

Full Member
Feb 17, 2018
867
696
42
UK
The coldest instant at the ground is usually exactly sunrise.
The temperatures fall during the night and what was warmed up by the sun gets colder and colder. Sooner or later it reaches the dew point and all gets whet.
With sunrise you get now additional the evaporation chill.

But afterwards the sun heats up all and everything.


Most NATO armies, if not all, issue nowadays two sleeping bags to the soldiers, that fit into each other.

That is usually the Carinthia Tropen summer sleeping bag that fits into the Defence 4 three seasons sleeping bag. And both together replace a winter sleeping bag. Brits and Dutch for example issue a copy of that system, the US army has an own similar system, but that isn't the point here.
Snugpak created a different system where the winter sleeping bag goes into the summer sleeping bag, the Special Forces System, that's also issued in several NATO armies.

It doesn't matter which sleeping bag fits into which. Both systems work very well.

Around it can go a bivvy bag and inside can also go a polycotton liner that rather replaces the bed sheets at home, but also adds a bit more warmth because it closes in air and separates it.
A polyester fleece liner or simply a blanket would work inside too. But I don't like loose liners and prefere to wear additional clothing in the sleeping bag. It doesn't need to be expensive merino wool. Solognac offers warm polyester fleece long underwear. It's constructed to wear it under the hunting clothing but surely serves as pyjamas too.
Lightweight packing as well as low budget lifestyle mean to buy multi use items. So this underwear is surely worth a thought. People who get cold feet wear a bit too large woolen socks over the first pair during the night, that means two fresh pairs as night equipment.

I rather wear the clothing of the day in the sleeping bag because that's lighter.

I recommend to try out if your existing sleeping bags fit into each other. You probably will not have accidentally the perfect fit like the military sleep systems that are exactly constructed like this. Nevertheless it's quite possible that you can use your both existing sleeping bags like that.

Roughly said you can weigh your both sleeping bags and assume that the comfort temperature rating of both together is approximately around the comfort temperature of a single cheaper winter sleeping bag that has the same weight.
The real temperature limit you simply have to try out, for example on the own balcony, or somewhere else where you can easily stop the experiment and go home into your bed if you reached the limit.

I think you rather should use your existing equipment if possible and save up your money in order to get the most convincing items step by step. As I wrote above, the best of the best often isn't the most expensive. A lot of the best equipment was mass produced and often issued in NATO armies, that's why one can get it used and cheap.

But boots, sleeping bags and padded clothing one should buy new.
Sound advice there!

I have three 2 season sleeping bags. One is down and the others are synthetic. If I am sleeping in particularly cold weather, I will use one inside the other. (2 + 2 = 4 season right....?). Other times I will use a two season bag with a poncho liner inside. That's very effective and a cheaper, more compact option than using two separate sleeping bags.

When I want to keep the weight and pack size down, I will sleep in my puffy jacket with the hood up. A good idea is also to sleep with a neck gaiter on, and/or a woolly hat. I always sleep in lightweight thermals and not in the clothes I've worn during the day.

It is also good advice to get that sleeping bag unpacked and given a good shake to fluff up the insulation some time before getting into the bag.

Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk
 

Erbswurst

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Mar 5, 2018
3,120
1,226
Berlin
Indeed, I forgot the cap!
I don't carry it always around but if I have it, I sometimes use it already in some late summer nights.

Summer sleeping bags often have no inbuilt warmth collar. In this case it's worth to wrap a pullover or whatever around the neck.

A summer down bag would serve better as inner layer than outer layer if the other is a polyester filling sleeping bag.
(But I don't recommend to buy down bags.)
 

fingertrouble

Tenderfoot
Sep 6, 2021
64
43
48
London, UK
Sound advice there!

I have three 2 season sleeping bags. One is down and the others are synthetic. If I am sleeping in particularly cold weather, I will use one inside the other. (2 + 2 = 4 season right....?). Other times I will use a two season bag with a poncho liner inside. That's very effective and a cheaper, more compact option than using two separate sleeping bags.

When I want to keep the weight and pack size down, I will sleep in my puffy jacket with the hood up. A good idea is also to sleep with a neck gaiter on, and/or a woolly hat. I always sleep in lightweight thermals and not in the clothes I've worn during the day.

It is also good advice to get that sleeping bag unpacked and given a good shake to fluff up the insulation some time before getting into the bag.

Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk
Yes I know about sleeping with clothes on - I had to do with my 2 season bag in summer once! That's how I knew the 2 season was rather optimistic....that said, I had only a thin mat with hardly any insulation....hence wanting a good mat to keep me off the ground.

Thing is, I'm a side sleeper (necessarily so - asthma/breathing issues means sleeping on my back = cannot breathe), so sleeping with pockets with keys and wallet etc is far from comfortable for me. Hence why I wanted an inflatable mat, because the thin mats are fine if you sleep on your back or stomach, but side means you need some cushioning - and yes I know about the ground hack, depends if the ground is soft enough though....

I'll check out poncho liners, and indeed thermals.
 

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